GH pH UP

[Rootsruler]

I guess I'll be the one to break the dirt grower sections cherry.

I'm currently going into week 5 and I'd like to start raising K. When I go to pH the final mix I need to raise pH to the desired level and have been using pH UP to do this. I know that GH's pH UP is basically Potassium Carbonate so my question is will the added Potassium from the pH UP raise the potassium levels I'm trying to achieve?

I've been using it to raise pH for the last couple of weeks and the girls have been responding beautifully and I suspect the added Potassium Carbonate is raising the K. I just want to confirm that I don't need to add anymore K to the base solution as long as I continue to use pH UP.

 

[SweetLeafGrow]

Looking killer in there bro!

I am pretty sure that Potassium Carbonate will add potassium to your nutrient mix. I know I have been using Potassium Silicate instead of ph Up and I just learned that it does add Potassium to the nutrient mix which may have been causing leaf tip burn on my plants. I would think that Potassium Carbonate would do the same thing, just not sure to what degree.

 

[moe.red]

I’ll do a little research when I get to pc. Are you organic?

The short answer is yes, as carbonate is used to buffer ph the potassium becomes available. What I don’t know off the top of my head is if it is in a plant available form. I think it is tho.

You also have Cec to deal with in soil that hydro growers dont. Adds to complexity.

 

[Anthem275]

I guess I'll be the one to break the dirt grower sections cherry.

I'm currently going into week 5 and I'd like to start raising K. When I go to pH the final mix I need to raise pH to the desired level and have been using pH UP to do this. I know that GH's pH UP is basically Potassium Carbonate so my question is will the added Potassium from the pH UP raise the potassium levels I'm trying to achieve?

I've been using it to raise pH for the last couple of weeks and the girls have been responding beautifully and I suspect the added Potassium Carbonate is raising the K. I just want to confirm that I don't need to add anymore K to the base solution as long as I continue to use pH UP.

That is a very good question.
First off I am pretty sure GH PH UP falls into the 10 percent strength class. Meaning it is 10 percent active or for each 10 mills you are adding there is 1 mill of active PH UP. Secondly the molecular structure of the active ingredient is Potassium Carbonate K2CO3. It is not really wrote like this because the 2 and 3 should be listed below the numbers. This Means there are 2 K (Potassium) atoms in the structure and 3 of C & O. I believe that if you use the information I have listed we can sort of get an idea of the total P you are adding with the product. Let's say you are adding 20 mills of PH up, that is 2 Mills of K2CO3. the K would be .8grams since mills and grams can be interchanged. I think that is it. But now you would want to see the total change to NKP. NPK is the percentage of each in the solution. Take 5-12-26 (what I use for base nutrient) 5 percent nitrogen, 12 percent Phosphorus, 26 percent K Potassium. I use about 4 grams of this for a gallon of water. So I am getting 1.04 grams of K per gallon. That is my total K for the Mix. It is a dry salt mix. So let's say you are adding 20 mills of PH up to your 20 gallons of solution. Again .8 grams of K which is going to change the NPK of the mix by like 1 percent if all I have firgured is correct. It would take you from say 12-12-12 to like 12-12-13. TO BE 10O PERCENT HONEST, I WISH A CHEMISTRY MAJOR OR SOMEONE WITH MORE KNOWLEDGE ABOUT THIS WOULD CONFIRM ALL OF THIS.

 

[Rootsruler]

That is a very good question.
First off I am pretty sure GH PH UP falls into the 10 percent strength class. Meaning it is 10 percent active or for each 10 mills you are adding there is 1 mill of active PH UP. Secondly the molecular structure of the active ingredient is Potassium Carbonate K2CO3. It is not really wrote like this because the 2 and 3 should be listed below the numbers. This Means there are 2 K (Potassium) atoms in the structure and 3 of C & O. I believe that if you use the information I have listed we can sort of get an idea of the total P you are adding with the product. Let's say you are adding 20 mills of PH up, that is 2 Mills of K2CO3. the K would be .8grams since mills and grams can be interchanged. I think that is it. But now you would want to see the total change to NKP. NPK is the percentage of each in the solution. Take 5-12-26 (what I use for base nutrient) 5 percent nitrogen, 12 percent Phosphorus, 26 percent K Potassium. I use about 4 grams of this for a gallon of water. So I am getting 1.04 grams of K per gallon. That is my total K for the Mix. It is a dry salt mix. So let's say you are adding 20 mills of PH up to your 20 gallons of solution. Again .8 grams of K which is going to change the NPK of the mix by like 1 percent if all I have firgured is correct. It would take you from say 12-12-12 to like 12-12-13. TO BE 10O PERCENT HONEST, I WISH A CHEMISTRY MAJOR OR SOMEONE WITH MORE KNOWLEDGE ABOUT THIS WOULD CONFIRM ALL OF THIS.

Math is sound. So roughly 1 - 10 in regards to pH UP added to what is actually being delivered as far as K. I'm adding around 30 - 40 mils depending on pH goal but will probably cut back as I'll be pulling down pH to give the plants a chance to catch up on some of the micro minerals that weren't available at the pH levels I was feeding at.

Base bloom nutes are at 4 - 8 - 7 so I'm raising it around 4 - 8 - 9 if we follow the math. Is there a K booster that you would recommend that would help me raise K levels without raising pH?

 

[Rootsruler]

I’ll do a little research when I get to pc. Are you organic?

The short answer is yes, as carbonate is used to buffer ph the potassium becomes available. What I don’t know off the top of my head is if it is in a plant available form. I think it is tho.

You also have Cec to deal with in soil that hydro growers dont. Adds to complexity.

Liquid salts. GH FloraNova Grow and Bloom for my base nutes. What is Cec?

 

[Anthem275]

Math is sound. So roughly 1 - 10 in regards to pH UP added to what is actually being delivered as far as K. I'm adding around 30 - 40 mils depending on pH goal but will probably cut back as I'll be pulling down pH to give the plants a chance to catch up on some of the micro minerals that weren't available at the pH levels I was feeding at.

Base bloom nutes are at 4 - 8 - 7 so I'm raising it around 4 - 8 - 9 if we follow the math. Is there a K booster that you would recommend that would help me raise K levels without raising pH?

I was hoping to have someone with much more experience than I have double check the chemistry. I am not 100 percent sure it all checks out because like Moe mentioned it could have to do with if the buffering action of the PH up is being used.

 

[Anthem275]

Liquid salts. GH FloraNova Grow and Bloom for my base nutes. What is Cec?

Citation Exchange I believe.
A couple other things.
1. I am not sure you need to alter the PH for Micros to be plant available. They are required in very small amount. Micro are iron, manganese, copper, ETC.
2. That GH PH up and down are a rip off. Look for stuff with higher percentages. Grow More is a 30 percent VS 10 percent and about the same or less. Nutrifield is like 70 percent. I add water to the nutrifield PH down before I work with it. Way too strong. I believe their PH up is the same.

 

[Rootsruler]

No worries. From what I've been reading it would seem that the Potassium Carbonate availability to the plant increases when pH ranges into the 6.5 range or higher so since I've been pHing at 7.5 the girls have been feasting on the K. Micros like it around 6.5 or below so even though not much is needed the drop will make K still available but will also open the door for the micros if the plant needs them.

I'm going to assume that this is what is happening and see what happens with my reducing or eliminating pH UP along with pH drop to see if availability to whatever is in the soil makes any difference.

 

[Anthem275]

Math is sound. So roughly 1 - 10 in regards to pH UP added to what is actually being delivered as far as K. I'm adding around 30 - 40 mils depending on pH goal but will probably cut back as I'll be pulling down pH to give the plants a chance to catch up on some of the micro minerals that weren't available at the pH levels I was feeding at.

Base bloom nutes are at 4 - 8 - 7 so I'm raising it around 4 - 8 - 9 if we follow the math. Is there a K booster that you would recommend that would help me raise K levels without raising pH?

Also I am in hydro and I let my PH rise from like week 3-4 to 7 to make P&K more available over N.
You mentioned adding K. I think you kind of want to feed a slight increase in P&K if anything. I have used a homemade version of hammerhead to do this in the past. I can look it up. It was 1 gram per gallon and I believe you can probably get a pound of each ingredient for the same price as a bottle. But I believe AN quit selling it.

 

[Anthem275]

No worries. From what I've been reading it would seem that the Potassium Carbonate doesn't become available to the plant until pH ranges into the 6.5 range so since I've been pHing at 7.5 there's probably already an abundance of K in the soil just waiting to become available once I drop pH.

I'm going to assume that this is what is happening and see what happens with my reducing or eliminating pH UP along with pH drop to see if availability to whatever is in the soil makes any difference.

If you are in soil that is a high PH. Soil should be around 6.5, coco 6 and Hydro around 5.8.

 

[Rootsruler]

If you are in soil that is a high PH. Soil should be around 6.5, coco 6 and Hydro around 5.8.

It is but since I've got some experience in hydro also I'm trying to raise the soil pH to make P more available like they do in hydro. So far it seems to have worked as the girls haven't complained but then again it could be that the soil buffered it down. I've been feeding at that level for a couple weeks now with, what looks like, no ill effect other than a little tip burn from one of the cultivars feeding 1200ppm. This last week ,while I was gone, I had the auto feeder feed clear water to give the girls a drink and help dissipate whatever is in the soil that is burning them.

I've restarted nutrient feeds but lowered ppm to 1000 and will start to taper down after next week.

 

[Moshmen]

It is but since I've got some experience in hydro also I'm trying to raise the soil pH to make P more available like they do in hydro. So far it seems to have worked as I the girls haven't complained but then again it could be that the soil buffered it down. I've been feeding at that level for a couple weeks now with, what looks like, no ill effect other than a little tip burn from one of the cultivars feeding 1200ppm. This last week ,while I was gone, I had the auto feeder feed clear water to give the girls a drink and help dissipate whatever is in the soil that is burning them.

I've restarted nutrient feeds but lowered ppm to 1000 and will start to taper down after next week.

What soil you using and does it have a buffer - if so your just chasin your tail in my opinion

 

[Rootsruler]

What soil you using and does it have a buffer - if so your just chasin your tail in my opinion

I'm using Roots Organic Original. I don't think it has any added buffers in the soil. Maybe the pumice but pumice has a neutral pH meaning 7.0

"INGREDIENTS
Perlite, Coco Fiber, Peat Moss, Composted Forest Material, Pumice, Worm Castings, Bat Guano, Soybean Meal, Alfalfa Meal, Fishbone Meal, Kelp Meal, and Greensand. Also contains beneficial mycorrhizal fungi: Funneliformis mosseae, Rhizophagus intraradices, Septoglomus desertícola to enhance uptake of plant nutrients, increase root biomass, and help container grown plants resist stress"

 

[MysticEpipedon]

Liquid salts. GH FloraNova Grow and Bloom for my base nutes. What is Cec?

CEC stands for Cation Exchange Capacity. It gives soil the property of buffering any cation (element or compound with a positive charge). Organic matter and clay is the source of CEC in soil. The CEC of peat moss is high compared to most mineral soils.

CEC is also one of the sources of pH buffering in soil. The other is the presences of undissolved minerals, like calcium carbonate or other liming materials.

If you add a solution to soil, some of the cations will be pulled out of solution and held by the CEC of the soil. When this happens, those cations are displacing other cations that were already on the CEC sites. This is how buffering works. For instance, if you add calcium carbonate to soil, some Ca2+ will attach to CEC and displace 2 charges worth of some other element, like H or K. (When H+ is held on CEC, it is called reserve acidity.)

CEC makes soil both a pain in the ass and a very resilient medium at the same time. It's a pain in the ass if you don't have the pH right or a nutrient is deficient. It's resilient because it limits your ability to fuck things up when you're using a balanced soil mix.

 

[MysticEpipedon]

I'm using Roots Organic Original. I don't think it has any added buffers in the soil. Maybe the pumice but pumice has a neutral pH meaning 7.0

"INGREDIENTS
Perlite, Coco Fiber, Peat Moss, Composted Forest Material, Pumice, Worm Castings, Bat Guano, Soybean Meal, Alfalfa Meal, Fishbone Meal, Kelp Meal, and Greensand. Also contains beneficial mycorrhizal fungi: Funneliformis mosseae, Rhizophagus intraradices, Septoglomus desertícola to enhance uptake of plant nutrients, increase root biomass, and help container grown plants resist stress"

From what I've observed, Roots Original has about 3 weeks worth of nutrients. Soil is always buffered, because it's the nature of many constituents, like peat and worm castings.

 

[Rootsruler]

From what I've observed, Roots Original has about 3 weeks worth of nutrients. Soil is always buffered, because it's the nature of many constituents, like peat and worm castings.

I keep tabs on soil pH and I have run into soil pH's as low as 5.4 or as high as 8.0

Wouldn't the buffer in soil regulate these within a tighter range or are there other factors that swing it that way? I've measured right after water and the next day and have had similar readings. Wouldn't the buffer equalize the soil pH with in the constraints of the buffering agent or is that the pH swing that the buffer works within?

 

[MysticEpipedon]

I keep tabs on soil pH and I have run into soil pH's as low as 5.4 or as high as 8.0

Wouldn't the buffer in soil regulate these within a tighter range or are there other factors that swing it that way? I've measured right after water and the next day and have had similar readings. Wouldn't the buffer equalize the soil pH with in the constraints of the buffering agent or is that the pH swing that the buffer works within?

All buffers have their limits and they can be overcome if your watering solution is consistently high or low. Most pH buffering is probably from undissolved lime/dolomite particles. When those are spent, pH can swing. Ions also behave differently in soil, and they are referred to as either basic or acidic cations. No other science, other than soil science, views ions as acids or bases.

As an example, when you have a high pH, like 8 or above, it's an indication you have sodium (Na) in your soil. Na is considered a "basic" cation because of this. This can happen with a perfectly balanced soil mix, if you water with water with a lot of Na in it. Soil buffering be damned.

 

[Formally Known as Week4]

Math is sound. So roughly 1 - 10 in regards to pH UP added to what is actually being delivered as far as K. I'm adding around 30 - 40 mils depending on pH goal but will probably cut back as I'll be pulling down pH to give the plants a chance to catch up on some of the micro minerals that weren't available at the pH levels I was feeding at.

Base bloom nutes are at 4 - 8 - 7 so I'm raising it around 4 - 8 - 9 if we follow the math. Is there a K booster that you would recommend that would help me raise K levels without raising pH?

Check into coconut water Roots, "might" be what your looking for. BAS has some interesting info on it's use. I'm holding off till after week 6-7 to start using it myself. And with the soil pH, got a similar thing going but not to worried about it (with 2 pots indoors) but would still like to see it at least a little under neutral (just for myself) and understanding that the root zone of our plants can buffer the pH to its needs at any given time, we could adjust the soil as much as we want but it's the plant that will dictate what the rootzone ph is anyways. To what extend it's surrounding pH fluctuations affect this, not sure, which is why i personally (at least) like to keep it neutral as I possibly can. (Compost and EWC will slowly lower the ph for ya) Nice looking ladies.

 

[Rootsruler]

Check into coconut water Roots, "might" be what your looking for. BAS has some interesting info on it's use. I'm holding off till after week 6-7 to start using it myself. And with the soil pH, got a similar thing going but not to worried about it (with 2 pots indoors) but would still like to see it at least a little under neutral (just for myself) and understanding that the root zone of our plants can buffer the pH to its needs at any given time, we could adjust the soil as much as we want but it's the plant that will dictate what the rootzone ph is anyways. To what extend it's surrounding pH fluctuations affect this, not sure, which is why i personally (at least) like to keep it neutral as I possibly can. (Compost and EWC will slowly lower the ph for ya) Nice looking ladies.

D'ank's!!