⚡Electrical Help Thread⚡

[GrumpAzz]

First time caller, long time listener and love the show...

I just don't know if maybe the breaker is faulty or maybe the Titan has issue with the power down and I should replace it with a more traditional heavy duty power strip. In the world of sparky maybe the GFCI is seeing the sunset as a power surge or something. I'm confused.

I'll hang up and listen

So I'm just gonna spitball a little here because GFI breakers are weird and they can trip for seemily meaningless reasons and I'll be the first to admit that electricity is fuckin' bonkers...

My best guess would be that the issue lies within the light and how it's doing the dimming. As it lowers the wattage to dim the LEDs, the juice likely runs through a a series of resistors. The lower the intensity, the higher the resistance. Resistors shed wattage in the form of heat and if I had to bet on it, I'd say the highest wattage resistor is shedding enough heat for the breaker to sense the 5 milliamp difference on the neutral. 5 mA is nothing and GFI breakers are finniky and sensitive and like Pipe said, the more they trip to worse it gets.

 

[Bandit420]

Breakers are only guaranteed to trip at the rating once after that they can trip easier or harder,( at least that's what I learned in trade school 50+ yrs ago) each time they trip off it leaves an arc spot and the more times they trip the bigger the spot. They can either weld together eventually and not work at all or weld apart and not trip on an overload.

Breakers do break down and arc fault or ground fault can be finicky after tripping a few times

yeah i agree with Pipecarver... for $5 just swap out the breaker. my breaker is not as sensitive as a gfci but the sunrise/sunset feature never caused me any weird issues and shouldn't for you either. i'd try the breaker.

So I'm just gonna spitball a little here because GFI breakers are weird and they can trip for seemily meaningless reasons and I'll be the first to admit that electricity is fuckin' bonkers...

My best guess would be that the issue lies within the light and how it's doing the dimming. As it lowers the wattage to dim the LEDs, the juice likely runs through a a series of resistors. The lower the intensity, the higher the resistance. Resistors shed wattage in the form of heat and if I had to bet on it, I'd say the highest wattage resistor is shedding enough heat for the breaker to sense the 5 milliamp difference on the neutral. 5 mA is nothing and GFI breakers are finniky and sensitive and like Pipe said, the more they trip to worse it gets.

Many thanks for the assist fellas!

Ok so since I made that post the breaker tripped once again 3 days ago. Again right before lights off so I used that opportunity to rearrange my light schedule from night to to day time running.
Between Summer heat and the time change last week my lights on schedule was very inconvenient to my work schedule so it gave me a chance to better line the two up and give me the chance to work more in my room. I left the room in the dark for a little over 24 hours.

Reset everything and it all worked fine yesterday. Then this morning the breaker was tripped again. I assume when lights went out again.
I tried to reset the breaker and it wanted nothing to do with turning on.
I forgot I also have a mini fridge plugged into the circuit so I unplugged it and the breaker still would not turn on.
I unplugged the Titan light controller and then finally the breaker turned on.

So I figure the issue is either the lights or the Titan. I plug the lights into the circuit outlets, bypassing the Titan, and everything is working fine.
I'm certain the Titan is causing the issue now.
I've thought about maybe it's the Titan's plug or cord and was considering changing the two out which I have the parts to do but after looking on Amazon I found a heavy duty 20 amp rated steel cased power strip discounted from $43 to $27 and will opt for that.
I'm also changing out the breaker today for a new one. Not sure if it will be GFCI since the main outlet everything in the circuit plugs into is also GFCI so either or, I'll still have GFCI protection.

Both the Titan and breaker are quite old. At least ten years old and 1000s of hours of wear. I'm guessing age may be playing a role here IDK but they have been well used and taxed with a heavy load their whole life

For future reference and anybody looking at this thread and having a similar issue with a HID lighting controller and GFCI breaker not getting along, here are the parts involved...

GE 20 Amp 1-Pole Ground Fault Breaker with Self-Test THQL1120GFTP - The Home Depot

Grab an excellent protection to your entire circuit system in home or business area by selecting this GE Single Pole Ground Fault Breaker with SelfTest.

www.homedepot.com

Titan Controls Helios 1 – 4 Light 120 Volt Controller w/ Timer – East Coast Hydro

easthydro.com

 

[steamroller]

Breakers wear out for sure.
I know I pushed my fish room with eventually 4@ 15amp breakers. Coming close on grow room with 3 @ 15amp breakers.
When would trip more than a few times with no real noticeable issues I defaulted to Occums razor and switched the breaker.
Solved the issue every time for me.

 

[tobh]

dead thread revival!

alright, new question for the sparkies.

I have two wall sconces I want to install. They're both LED, will have to look at the actual load they introduce but I imagine it's not significant. Where I want to install them has outlets below that I could pigtail off of, but I want them ran off a dimmer switch as they'll be in the family/TV room. With that, I have another idea.

There is a switch that runs an outlet on a separate wall. I am thinking drop a line of 14/2 from the attic to that switch, splice with the hot line, re-wire the current switch as it currently is, and add a dimmer (expanding from one gang to two gang j-box), then this is where the question comes in. What would be "proper" -- cut a strip across the drywall to run the 14/2 wire horizontally across through the studs, to the light j-boxes, or run the wire up through the stud cavities to the attic, then drop back down?

I'm thinking the cleanest method is going up through the attic -- not a whole lot of drywall repair needed after the fact, and keeps the wires relatively safe from unintended breakage due to hanging stuff on the wall/screwing into studs, etc. However, climbing through an attic to run the wire where it would need to go will be less than enjoyable to say the least.

I have the wire, the j-boxes, and the lights, so calling a service technician to deal with this isn't really something I'm all too interested in, but, if the price estimate (thinking it's probably a two hour job) would be decent enough, it might be worth not rolling around in the attic myself. Plus, another component is I'll be running 14/2 wire and tying into 12/2 wire, so there might be some opinions about that...

What say y'all?

 

[GrumpAzz]

What would be "proper" -- cut a strip across the drywall to run the 14/2 wire horizontally across through the studs, to the light j-boxes, or run the wire up through the stud cavities to the attic, then drop back down?

You'll be better off going up. I, personally, hate drywalling. Plus, it might be easier than sneaking around those corners.

If you're handy when it comes to patching drywall, go horizontal. Just make sure the notch you cut can accommodate a drill. If you're hole is more than an inch from the surface, the likelihood of future damage is reduced. If you are less than an inch, add a nail-plate. They're cheap.

Plus, another component is I'll be running 14/2 wire and tying into 12/2 wire, so there might be some opinions about that...

This is a grey area and leads to many arguments among electricians. In theory, you'll be fine because those little LEDs will never draw enough to start a fire. The issue is less about the splicing of two different sized conductors and more about the #14 being on a 20A breaker. I'm assuming, since the circuit is ran with #12, it's on a 20A breaker.

According to code, #14 can't land on a 20A breaker. This may have been addressed and amended in recent years with the prevalence of LEDs. I'm not completely up to date with my code knowledge, though. Will it cause a fire? Highly unlikely. A short on #14 will still trip a 20A breaker. The problem would be a future issue. Like, say someone down the road thinks they can tap into those lights for additional equipment. That's also pretty unlikely.

I'd say you're good to run 14s from the switches.

--------

One thing you weren't questioning that caught my attention... dimming your LEDs. They make LEDs that are dimmable and LEDs that aren't. Make sure you buy dimmable LEDs.

 

[tobh]

This is a grey area and leads to many arguments among electricians. In theory, you'll be fine because those little LEDs will never draw enough to start a fire. The issue is less about the splicing of two different sized conductors and more about the #14 being on a 20A breaker. I'm assuming, since the circuit is ran with #12, it's on a 20A breaker.

According to code, #14 can't land on a 20A breaker. This may have been addressed and amended in recent years with the prevalence of LEDs. I'm not completely up to date with my code knowledge, though. Will it cause a fire? Highly unlikely. A short on #14 will still trip a 20A breaker. The problem would be a future issue. Like, say someone down the road thinks they can tap into those lights for additional equipment. That's also pretty unlikely.

I'd say you're good to run 14s from the switches.

--------

One thing you weren't questioning that caught my attention... dimming your LEDs. They make LEDs that are dimmable and LEDs that aren't. Make sure you buy dimmable LEDs.

more than handy with the drywall lol been covered in mud for months it seems. but you raise a good point, and a sympathy that i appreciate. i don't want to have to float and match any more texture than i need to.

that point of #12 vs #14 has been discussed at length in this thread. I have #12 throughout -- just what it is. the previous owners ran a massive grown op and ran the wire, to code from what i understand, and i'm just jumping off what they ran.

a lot of the circuits i've fucked with have been brain benders because they ran the circuits like they were done when the house was built in '77, so you have switched neutrals on three way circuits (NEC changed that code in 2013), but the load on this particular circuit are less than an amp at best, even on initial switch flip. I'll need to look at the specs on the lights, but I seriously doubt they'll even draw a full amp individually, and being ran in series I would be surprised to see an amp from them ran in series.

the price difference of $120 between #14 and #12 is why I bought 250ft of #14. It'll work for the 15amp work i'm doing atm. Just wasn't sure what the pros thought of tying into #12 for this purpose. it's been a point of contention (eg, #12 shouldn't be in residential -- not talking about should or should not here).

 

[GrumpAzz]

it's been a point of contention (eg, #12 shouldn't be in residential -- not talking about should or should not here).

Do you mean #14 shouldn't be used for residential? That I would agree with. The exception being switch legs for LED lighting. Running #12 is a much better practice for residential, in my opinion. Any electrician wiring a house with #14 is just being cheap.

But, to your original concern... there's nothing against splicing different sized conductors as long as the circuit is protected at the amp rating of the smallest conductor. That means, technically, any #12 circuit you add a run of #14 to should now be protected with 15A breakers. Like I said, though, I don't see an issue if it's strictly for LED lighting.

 

[tobh]

Do you mean #14 shouldn't be used for residential? That I would agree with. The exception being switch legs for LED lighting. Running #12 is a much better practice for residential, in my opinion. Any electrician wiring a house with #14 is just being cheap.

But, to your original concern... there's nothing against splicing different sized conductors as long as the circuit is protected at the amp rating of the smallest conductor. That means, technically, any #12 circuit you add a run of #14 to should now be protected with 15A breakers. Like I said, though, I don't see an issue if it's strictly for LED lighting.

There was some back and forth about #12 has no place in residential because no residential has 20A circuits, aside from 220V outlets for electric ranges and clothes dryers, which both are on higher amp breakers anyways.

Thank you for confirming my concern about splicing smaller wire gauge to bigger gauge not being a problem -- worst case the wire becomes the fuse. Incredibly unlikely unless I figure out how to fuck up in a way that makes the point of termination stronger than the circuit breaker lol consider myself to be pretty smart and dumb enough to be dangerous with this shit but ya know, hazards are hazards.

 

[GrumpAzz]

There was some back and forth about #12 has no place in residential because no residential has 20A circuits, aside from 220V outlets for electric ranges and clothes dryers, which both are on higher amp breakers anyways.

This is weird... Every house I've EVER wired had 20 amp circuits. Rarely, if ever, have I installed a 15 amp breaker. We always ran 20s with #12 because it's inevitable that someone will add something later by tapping off an existing outlet. Not gonna argue though.

I do remember Pipe and I going back and forth debating whether or not the wire in one of your photos was 12 or 14. Maybe I missed the discussion about which is better because, to me at least, that's a no-brainer. I'll say it again for those paying attention... If you're wiring a house with all #14, you're a cheapskate.

Thank you for confirming my concern about splicing smaller wire gauge to bigger gauge not being a problem -- worst case the wire becomes the fuse. Incredibly unlikely unless I figure out how to fuck up in a way that makes the point of termination stronger than the circuit breaker lol consider myself to be pretty smart and dumb enough to be dangerous with this shit but ya know, hazards are hazards.

Yeah you got it dude. Every splice is a potential point of failure but, done right, is a non-issue.

 

[tobh]

This is weird... Every house I've EVER wired had 20 amp circuits. Rarely, if ever, have I installed a 15 amp breaker. We always ran 20s with #12 because it's inevitable that someone will add something later by tapping off an existing outlet. Not gonna argue though.

I do remember Pipe and I going back and forth debating whether or not the wire in one of your photos was 12 or 14. Maybe I missed the discussion about which is better because, to me at least, that's a no-brainer. I'll say it again for those paying attention... If you're wiring a house with all #14, you're a cheapskate.


Yeah you got it dude. Every splice is a potential point of failure but, done right, is a non-issue.

yeah, you member lol i know enough about electrical (primarily DC automotive circuitry) that a bigger conductor is insurance at minimum, and safety at best. figured running these lights in series, with loads that are maybe pulling a fraction of an amp at 110V, #14 is fine. Hell, the extra leg I ran on a circuit with #14 that'll feed a mini fridge that pull 2A at the compressor kick will do just fine me thinks.

Best watch out pro sparkies, tobh is fingering this out

 

[GrumpAzz]

that a bigger conductor is insurance at minimum, and safety at best

Yep.. this right here.

There's nothing wrong with running your switchlegs with 14, though. Like you said.. those lights will pull a fraction of an amp.

 

[Zen_seeker]

dead thread revival!

alright, new question for the sparkies.

I have two wall sconces I want to install. They're both LED, will have to look at the actual load they introduce but I imagine it's not significant. Where I want to install them has outlets below that I could pigtail off of, but I want them ran off a dimmer switch as they'll be in the family/TV room. With that, I have another idea.

There is a switch that runs an outlet on a separate wall. I am thinking drop a line of 14/2 from the attic to that switch, splice with the hot line, re-wire the current switch as it currently is, and add a dimmer (expanding from one gang to two gang j-box), then this is where the question comes in. What would be "proper" -- cut a strip across the drywall to run the 14/2 wire horizontally across through the studs, to the light j-boxes, or run the wire up through the stud cavities to the attic, then drop back down?

I'm thinking the cleanest method is going up through the attic -- not a whole lot of drywall repair needed after the fact, and keeps the wires relatively safe from unintended breakage due to hanging stuff on the wall/screwing into studs, etc. However, climbing through an attic to run the wire where it would need to go will be less than enjoyable to say the least.

I have the wire, the j-boxes, and the lights, so calling a service technician to deal with this isn't really something I'm all too interested in, but, if the price estimate (thinking it's probably a two hour job) would be decent enough, it might be worth not rolling around in the attic myself. Plus, another component is I'll be running 14/2 wire and tying into 12/2 wire, so there might be some opinions about that...

What say y'all?

If up is doable I’d go that route. Drops from a junction box are easy. Fishing through studs blind or chopping up drywall can be a pita and a lot more cleanup.

Cover any intakes or vents with something. That dam dust gets everywhere.

 

[tobh]

Got er done. Gonna be a bitch making everything up into the new j box, but I'll make it happen once the drywall repair is done.

 

[tobh]

Also thanks for the recommendation to go through the attic. Way fuckin easier running wire that way. Took less than 30 minutes to get the three drops done. Tying into the power in the j box was the real motherfucker. Ground wires are cut super short, and there's a lot going on in there with the 12/2 lines and one 12/3 line. Gonna be cramped behind them switches.

 

[GrumpAzz]

Gonna be cramped behind them switches.

It just takes a little bit of forethought and some neat and tidy tucking. Looping all your switches with a single HOT can save you a bit of spelace but it's frowned upon. It's at least better than smashing the wires to the point of potentially damaging the insulation. It just takes one long pigtail stripped once for every switch at various lengths apart.

I'm only seeing 3 switches in that box so I got faith in you. You'll make it fit.

 

[tobh]

It just takes a little bit of forethought and some neat and tidy tucking. Looping all your switches with a single HOT can save you a bit of spelace but it's frowned upon. It's at least better than smashing the wires to the point of potentially damaging the insulation. It just takes one long pigtail stripped once for every switch at various lengths apart.

I'm only seeing 3 switches in that box so I got faith in you. You'll make it fit.

Would wagos help reclaim some real estate? The wire nuts I have are massive lol

 

[Stoneyluv]

Would wagos help reclaim some real estate? The wire nuts I have are massive lol

i'm a huge fan of wagos!! stopped using wire nuts over five years ago.

 

[tobh]

i'm a huge fan of wagos!! stopped using wire nuts over five years ago.

Are they less bulky than wire nuts? I don't see how I'm gonna get these two switches back in the box with all the wire nuts I have now.

I'll snag a pic of the mess when my phone has more charge. It's kinda fucked lol

 

[Stoneyluv]

Are they less bulky than wire nuts? I don't see how I'm gonna get these two switches back in the box with all the wire nuts I have now.

I'll snag a pic of the mess when my phone has more charge. It's kinda fucked lol

yes, if you lay the wire in neatly. the wires must be more parallel then in a group like with nuts. here's a photo for size comparison.. even the five bangers are close to same size...



you could always swap out the box for a bigger one and just cover that side with a blank plate.

 

[tobh]

yes, if you lay the wire in neatly. the wires must be more parallel then in a group like with nuts. here's a photo for size comparison.. even the five bangers are close to same size...

View attachment 71633

you could always swap out the box for a bigger one and just cover that side with a blank plate.

Appreciate the comparison photo. I'm thinking I'll pick up a bus bar for the grounds, and some wagos for the neutrals and hots. I did my best to get things organized as is, but I have two pigtails, one for each switch, and because the ground wires were cut so short I did some rather... Not ideal fuckery to get the corrections fixed. With the wagos I can run all the wires super clean, and my OCD will be happy even if I don't look at those connections again for a decade lol I'll know, it's a pretty box.

 

[Stoneyluv]

Appreciate the comparison photo. I'm thinking I'll pick up a bus bar for the grounds, and some wagos for the neutrals and hots. I did my best to get things organized as is, but I have two pigtails, one for each switch, and because the ground wires were cut so short I did some rather... Not ideal fuckery to get the corrections fixed. With the wagos I can run all the wires super clean, and my OCD will be happy even if I don't look at those connections again for a decade lol I'll know, it's a pretty box.

i think they're safer, melt downs stay contained inside..

 

[Zen_seeker]

Would wagos help reclaim some real estate? The wire nuts I have are massive lol

We don’t have those up here. Too bad. These are the closest I’m familiar with at our HD.

 

[GrumpAzz]

Would wagos help reclaim some real estate? The wire nuts I have are massive lol

If you use the lever-lock style. I don't recommend the push in style. Wagos are HUGE in Europe. They work

 

[Pipecarver]

If you use the lever-lock style. I don't recommend the push in style. Wagos are HUGE in Europe. They work

In a pinch I use these wire crimp connectors. I cut the metal piece off the end crimp the wires and tape them so there's no metal piece exposed. They can free up space and make a good connection but you have to cut and shorten the wire if you fk up or need to do other splices

 

[Pipecarver]

i think they're safer, melt downs stay contained inside..

View attachment 71634

stranded wire with all of the strands not making contact or bad soldering at contacts, cause heat build up and potential fires

 

[Zen_seeker]

In a pinch I use these wire crimp connectors. I cut the metal piece off the end crimp the wires and tape them so there's no metal piece exposed. They can free up space and make a good connection but you have to cut and shorten the wire if you fk up or need to do other splicesView attachment 71673

I use these a lot. Butt splice, spade, but I like the bullet head the best. I’ll fill with solder if important.

I made my car radio and Jeep CB removable with these and a sliding plate.

 

[tobh]

I use these a lot. Butt splice, spade, but I like the bullet head the best. I’ll fill with solder if important.

I made my car radio and Jeep CB removable with these and a sliding plate.

would be curious to see how that works

 

[Zen_seeker]

would be curious to see how that works

I still have the CB with its plate, Jeeps long gone. Gave it to my daughter who sold it.

Let me dig a little. Pretty sure I know where it is. The plate came from Radio Shack in the 80’s.

 

[Zen_seeker]

This is a two part slide connection. Used it for the Jeep to make removable equipment. One half blots to the car with all the contacts attached and soldered.

The other end you attach to the device. This is a ham radio turned into a CB.




Bullet head butt splices are my go to for 1-3 wire cords. I just off set each wire so no chance of a short or accidental contact when disconnected.


Hope it helps @tobh

90% sure I got it from RadioShack before they left Canada. Otherwise it came from Canadian Tire.

 

[Pipecarver]

This is a two part slide connection. Used it for the Jeep to make removable equipment. One half blots to the car with all the contacts attached and soldered.

The other end you attach to the device. This is a ham radio turned into a CB.
View attachment 71782

View attachment 71783

Bullet head butt splices are my go to for 1-3 wire cords. I just off set each wire so no chance of a short or accidental contact when disconnected.
View attachment 71784

Hope it helps @tobh

90% sure I got it from RadioShack before they left Canada. Otherwise it came from Canadian Tire.

Canadian tire ( spit) is on my shit list, My ass won't grace their stores again. I'm spiteful like that, piss me off and my money goes elsewhere and they pissed me off. They also killed watching hockey on TV, non stop the same mindless ads. fkem, this boy is cotting them.