Any in house geneticist?

[SpectrumFarms]

I’m trying to understand genetics better, I’m running a new strain and all three are wildly different phenos. Is this due to the breeder not stabilizing the genetics? I’m still very new I just haven’t noticed this with other breeders.

 

[CannaGranny]

I’m trying to understand genetics better, I’m running a new strain and all three are wildly different phenos. Is this due to the breeder not stabilizing the genetics? I’m still very new I just haven’t noticed this with other breeders.

Anything that splits three different ways in my opinion is the unstableness of the genetics. @Moe.Red is an excellent source of genetic information. I don’t even appreciate a two way split which is a lot more common. I want exactly what I pay for.

 

[SpectrumFarms]

Anything that splits three different ways in my opinion is the unstableness of the genetics. @Moe.Red is an excellent source of genetic information. I don’t even appreciate a two way split which is a lot more common. I want exactly what I pay for.

I was disappointed, but you live and you learn. I’ve heard nothing but awesome stuff about the breeder, I just don’t see it. That being said I haven’t smoked it yet so it might still be straight fuego.

 

[CannaGranny]

I get it. One I work hard for my money, no one gave me shit. If I buy a seed, I expect the reviews to be truthful and I expect to get what I paid for.
Having said this, I just came off a 18 week test on a set of seeds from The Seed Fair. I was convinced that I didn’t have what they said it was. Why? The plant was super small. This is an award winning plant from a Missouri company called Flora farms. Seeds exclusively bred for them out of Colorado. Why would a commercial grow base a great deal of its money on such a small plant and not exactly a heavy producer? First suspicion.
Second they spoke of the height, this is the first plant that I have gone to flower with that did not reach the top of my indica scrog table at 18”. Very suspicious.
Third, Bubba Fett has a very distinctive nose on it. It did not smell like Bubba Fett. Pretty pissed at this point.
Proof was in the pudding. That tiny plant did a three foot stretch! The reason Flora Farms grew it? They are the only commercial grow in Missouri whose business model is based on quality not quantity. Fantastic genetics even in dispensaries. As it matured it took on that smell that only Bubba Fett has!
Tonight, I did something that I NEVER do, I cut an ugly bud and dried it on my dehydrator. I catch some of the gas terps despite the fact it has not dried nor has no cure on it.
So as Jerry Springer would say, StarDog you ARE the father! Three hits in on green weed, I am waxed!! I do mean med a cated!
My apologies to The Seed Fair for being a bit of a Granny Karen!
After all it gave me a good enough buzz to sit still long enough to type all of that^^^^^^.

 

[MDK]

There are also different types of seed

Feminized, s1, regular, autos fems and regs

Different degrees to their homogenizing...F1, f2, f3 etc.

There's back crossing

There are triploid and maybe even polyploid plants to consider, if successful in using one of these as a parent how will that perform.

I'm still at the living and learning phase too and I don't mind it too much...just hope to hit more than miss..

 

[moe.red]

There are also different types of seed

Feminized, s1, regular, autos fems and regs

Different degrees to their homogenizing...F1, f2, f3 etc.

There's back crossing

There are triploid and maybe even polyploid plants to consider, if successful in using one of these as a parent how will that perform.

I'm still at the living and learning phase too and I don't mind it too much...just hope to hit more than miss..

This is the answer I believe @SpectrumFarms.

The only way to not have multiple phenos is for the breeder to take the time to basically make them into their own landrace. A landrace is stable genetics because it grew up for a long time just pollinating itself.

The thing is, having variation in phenos is where breeding starts. Here's another term to google - hybrid vigor.

Have not read all of this but seems like a good primer on breeding and the F1 vs F2 pluses and minuses. Just the top of a google search. But if you have specific questions post them up.

https://highgradehempseed.com/blog/...m F1 means “first,from breeding two F1 plants.

Not sure if you have heard this, but a master breeder is someone who can go into their seedbank, and starting with (usually landrace or a landrace hybrid) in 7 years make a plant with specific traits (i.e. THCv expression). I always thought that would be a cool skill to have.

BTW welcome to bb

 

[SpectrumFarms]

This is the answer I believe @SpectrumFarms.

The only way to not have multiple phenos is for the breeder to take the time to basically make them into their own landrace. A landrace is stable genetics because it grew up for a long time just pollinating itself.

The thing is, having variation in phenos is where breeding starts. Here's another term to google - hybrid vigor.

Have not read all of this but seems like a good primer on breeding and the F1 vs F2 pluses and minuses. Just the top of a google search. But if you have specific questions post them up.

https://highgradehempseed.com/blog/f1-and-f2-strains-explained/#:~:text=The term F1 means “first,from breeding two F1 plants.

Not sure if you have heard this, but a master breeder is someone who can go into their seedbank, and starting with (usually landrace or a landrace hybrid) in 7 years make a plant with specific traits (i.e. THCv expression). I always thought that would be a cool skill to have.

BTW welcome to bb

This makes sense, I’m glad I found this place to help steer me away from pollen chuckers!

 

[SpectrumFarms]

There are also different types of seed

Feminized, s1, regular, autos fems and regs

Different degrees to their homogenizing...F1, f2, f3 etc.

There's back crossing

There are triploid and maybe even polyploid plants to consider, if successful in using one of these as a parent how will that perform.

I'm still at the living and learning phase too and I don't mind it too much...just hope to hit more than miss..

From what I’m seeing these were two F2 crossed with each other.

 

[SpectrumFarms]

This is the answer I believe @SpectrumFarms.

The only way to not have multiple phenos is for the breeder to take the time to basically make them into their own landrace. A landrace is stable genetics because it grew up for a long time just pollinating itself.

The thing is, having variation in phenos is where breeding starts. Here's another term to google - hybrid vigor.

Have not read all of this but seems like a good primer on breeding and the F1 vs F2 pluses and minuses. Just the top of a google search. But if you have specific questions post them up.

https://highgradehempseed.com/blog/f1-and-f2-strains-explained/#:~:text=The term F1 means “first,from breeding two F1 plants.

Not sure if you have heard this, but a master breeder is someone who can go into their seedbank, and starting with (usually landrace or a landrace hybrid) in 7 years make a plant with specific traits (i.e. THCv expression). I always thought that would be a cool skill to have.

BTW welcome to bb

This is my end goal. I want to become a breeder if anything just for preservation purposes.

 

[MDK]

From what I’m seeing these were two F2 crossed with each other.

If f2's of the same progeny then it becomes an f3

If 2 different f2 strains were used...idk I guess it would be considered just an F1 hybrid.

 

[Observer]

I’m trying to understand genetics better, I’m running a new strain and all three are wildly different phenos.

if its wildly different, that does not sound "stabilized"

i would not be surprised if these seeds are just from a F1 or F2 batch.


F3+ on selective breeding, for more "stability"

Is this due to the breeder not stabilizing the genetics?

more than likely, if we had data on the "breeders" methods of how they cultivated these seeds, we'd know.

I’m still very new I just haven’t noticed this with other breeders.

 

[Observer]

From what I’m seeing these were two F2 crossed with each other.

If you're observing two F2 individuals being crossed with each other, you're essentially performing a cross between two individuals from the second filial generation.

In this case, you're essentially allowing the offspring of the original parental lines (the F1 generation) to interbreed.

This can lead to a variety of genetic combinations as the alleles from the original parental lines recombine and assort independently during gamete formation.

The resulting offspring, referred to as the F2 generation, will exhibit a variety of traits depending on how those alleles assort. This generation is often used to study genetic ratios and to further select individuals with desired traits for subsequent breeding programs.

 

[Observer]

This takes at minimum; a year or 2+ to do it right, years.

1. F1 Generation (First Filial Generation):
   • The F1 generation is produced by crossing two purebred (homozygous) parental lines.
   • All offspring in the F1 generation are heterozygous for the traits being studied.
   • Example: If you cross two plants, one with red flowers (RR) and one with white flowers (WW), the F1 generation would all have pink flowers (RW).
2. F2 Generation (Second Filial Generation):
   • The F2 generation is produced by allowing the F1 individuals to interbreed or self-fertilize.
   • In the F2 generation, you observe segregation of traits according to Mendel's laws of inheritance.
   • Example: In the case of flower color, you might observe a phenotypic ratio of 1 red : 2 pink : 1 white.
3. F3 Generation (Third Filial Generation):
   • The F3 generation is produced by allowing the F2 individuals to interbreed or self-fertilize.
   • Traits continue to segregate, but with greater variation due to genetic recombination.
   • Example: If you're breeding for a specific trait, you might select individuals from the F2 generation that exhibit that trait and allow them to interbreed to produce the F3 generation, which may show increased expression of the desired trait.
4. F4 Generation (Fourth Filial Generation):
   • The F4 generation is produced by allowing the F3 individuals to interbreed or self-fertilize.
   • With each successive generation, there may be further segregation of traits, but also increasing stability if selective breeding is employed.
   • Example: You might continue selecting individuals with the desired trait and allowing them to interbreed to produce the F4 generation with even stronger expression of the desired trait.
5. F5 Generation (Fifth Filial Generation):
   • The F5 generation is produced by allowing the F4 individuals to interbreed or self-fertilize.
   • By this point, if the breeding program has been successful in stabilizing the desired trait, you would expect a high proportion of individuals in the F5 generation to exhibit the trait consistently.
   • Example: If you've been selecting for disease resistance in plants, by the F5 generation, you would expect the majority of plants to show resistance to the target disease.

1. F6 Generation (Sixth Filial Generation):
   • The F6 generation is produced by allowing the F5 individuals to interbreed or self-fertilize.
   • Traits continue to stabilize, and the population becomes more uniform in terms of the desired trait.
2. F7 Generation (Seventh Filial Generation):
   • The F7 generation is produced by allowing the F6 individuals to interbreed or self-fertilize.
   • The population further stabilizes, and genetic variation decreases.
3. F8 Generation (Eighth Filial Generation):
   • The F8 generation is produced by allowing the F7 individuals to interbreed or self-fertilize.
   • Traits are expected to be highly stable and consistent within the population.
4. F9 Generation (Ninth Filial Generation):
   • The F9 generation is produced by allowing the F8 individuals to interbreed or self-fertilize.
   • The population continues to exhibit stable traits, and genetic variation is further reduced.
5. F10 Generation (Tenth Filial Generation):

• The F10 generation is produced by allowing the F9 individuals to interbreed or self-fertilize.
• Traits are expected to be extremely stable, and the population may reach a high level of uniformity in terms of the desired traits.

as you can see, it naturally takes a decent amount of time to "properly" do it "right"


i suppose i would be working on my F2 generation, im not sure when i can start F3, and its still going to be another year or two proably before ill have anything worthy of public sale.

 

[SSgrower]

From what I’m seeing these were two F2 crossed with each other.

F2 in a strain is when it's at it's "Show me what ya got"stage". F3,F4 should be more stable, searching is done during F2,F1, my contribution. SS

 

[SpectrumFarms]

This takes at minimum; a year or 2+ to do it right, years.

1. F1 Generation (First Filial Generation):
   • The F1 generation is produced by crossing two purebred (homozygous) parental lines.
   • All offspring in the F1 generation are heterozygous for the traits being studied.
   • Example: If you cross two plants, one with red flowers (RR) and one with white flowers (WW), the F1 generation would all have pink flowers (RW).
2. F2 Generation (Second Filial Generation):
   • The F2 generation is produced by allowing the F1 individuals to interbreed or self-fertilize.
   • In the F2 generation, you observe segregation of traits according to Mendel's laws of inheritance.
   • Example: In the case of flower color, you might observe a phenotypic ratio of 1 red : 2 pink : 1 white.
3. F3 Generation (Third Filial Generation):
   • The F3 generation is produced by allowing the F2 individuals to interbreed or self-fertilize.
   • Traits continue to segregate, but with greater variation due to genetic recombination.
   • Example: If you're breeding for a specific trait, you might select individuals from the F2 generation that exhibit that trait and allow them to interbreed to produce the F3 generation, which may show increased expression of the desired trait.
4. F4 Generation (Fourth Filial Generation):
   • The F4 generation is produced by allowing the F3 individuals to interbreed or self-fertilize.
   • With each successive generation, there may be further segregation of traits, but also increasing stability if selective breeding is employed.
   • Example: You might continue selecting individuals with the desired trait and allowing them to interbreed to produce the F4 generation with even stronger expression of the desired trait.
5. F5 Generation (Fifth Filial Generation):
   • The F5 generation is produced by allowing the F4 individuals to interbreed or self-fertilize.
   • By this point, if the breeding program has been successful in stabilizing the desired trait, you would expect a high proportion of individuals in the F5 generation to exhibit the trait consistently.
   • Example: If you've been selecting for disease resistance in plants, by the F5 generation, you would expect the majority of plants to show resistance to the target disease.

1. F6 Generation (Sixth Filial Generation):
   • The F6 generation is produced by allowing the F5 individuals to interbreed or self-fertilize.
   • Traits continue to stabilize, and the population becomes more uniform in terms of the desired trait.
2. F7 Generation (Seventh Filial Generation):
   • The F7 generation is produced by allowing the F6 individuals to interbreed or self-fertilize.
   • The population further stabilizes, and genetic variation decreases.
3. F8 Generation (Eighth Filial Generation):
   • The F8 generation is produced by allowing the F7 individuals to interbreed or self-fertilize.
   • Traits are expected to be highly stable and consistent within the population.
4. F9 Generation (Ninth Filial Generation):
   • The F9 generation is produced by allowing the F8 individuals to interbreed or self-fertilize.
   • The population continues to exhibit stable traits, and genetic variation is further reduced.
5. F10 Generation (Tenth Filial Generation):

• The F10 generation is produced by allowing the F9 individuals to interbreed or self-fertilize.
• Traits are expected to be extremely stable, and the population may reach a high level of uniformity in terms of the desired traits.

as you can see, it naturally takes a decent amount of time to "properly" do it "right"


i suppose i would be working on my F2 generation, im not sure when i can start F3, and its still going to be another year or two proably before ill have anything worthy of public sale.

Thank you for all this great info!

 

[Observer]

Thank you for all this great info!

no problem, im just learning the breeding side of things and working on my own little thing

 

[MysticEpipedon]

It seems to me that most seeds being sold now are polymorphs and pheno hunts are required.

Other than inbred lines and crossing two inbred lines for an F1, I just don't see a hell of a lot of stability in strains.

I heard from a breeder that S1 fems are often stable, which surprises me. The strain the breeder was talking about was Golden Goat, which is a polymorph (Island Sweet Skunk) x (Hawaiian Sativa x Romulan). I would think an S1 of that would behave like an F2 of regular seeds and produce a zillion phenos, but he says it's very stable.

This might have something to do with the degree to which crossing-over occurs. I have read that some strains recombine chromosomes more than others, so maybe Golden Goat is one that doesn't do a lot of recombining.

(During early phases of meiosis [sex cell division] chromosomes swap parts with each other, which is called crossing-over, which results in recombination. Or so says my decades old memory of biology. With less recombination, genes are more strongly linked on chromosomes and there is less variation in offspring.)

 

[GoodShit97]

I heard from a breeder that S1 fems are often stable, which surprises me. The strain the breeder was talking about was Golden Goat, which is a polymorph (Island Sweet Skunk) x (Hawaiian Sativa x Romulan). I would think an S1 of that would behave like an F2 of regular seeds and produce a zillion phenos, but he says it's very stable.

S1 seeds have additional stability because the reversed female and female genetics are identical. But I also have been told S1 seeds are less vigorous than say an F2.

Don't hold me to anything I just said, I'm only just now getting into learning all these different variations

 

[MysticEpipedon]

S1 seeds have additional stability because the reversed female and female genetics are identical. But I also have been told S1 seeds are less vigorous than say an F2.

Don't hold me to anything I just said, I'm only just now getting into learning all these different variations

If you cross two inbred lines, like F4 and higher, the F1 generation should be nearly identical, too. But when you do an F2 generation, the individuals are more variable. You can have phenos like either grandparent and every combination in between.

So using the Golden Goat example, why wouldn't we see more phenos that look very similar to the Island Sweet Skunk parent, or the Hawaiian x Romulan parent? Theoretically, a breeder should be able to recreate phenos very similar to one grandparent or the other, after a few generations.

 

[GoodShit97]

If you cross two inbred lines, like F4 and higher, the F1 generation should be nearly identical, too. But when you do an F2 generation, the individuals are more variable. You can have phenos like either grandparent and every combination in between.

So using the Golden Goat example, why wouldn't we see more phenos that look very similar to the Island Sweet Skunk parent, or the Hawaiian x Romulan parent? Theoretically, a breeder should be able to recreate phenos very similar to one grandparent or the other, after a few generations.

Man I haven't got a clue. Clearly you know more about the subject than I do lol. I'm only just now diving into it so ya got me man

 

[MysticEpipedon]

Man I haven't got a clue. Clearly you know more about the subject than I do lol. I'm only just now diving into it so ya got me man

I don't have a clue, either. Sometimes reality doesn't fit into the box I had prepared for it.

 

[SpectrumFarms]

S1 seeds have additional stability because the reversed female and female genetics are identical. But I also have been told S1 seeds are less vigorous than say an F2.

Don't hold me to anything I just said, I'm only just now getting into learning all these different variations

I’m going to be running my first S1 after the ladies come down. Thanks to this great place for introducing me to Greenpoint!

 

[SiamSam]

Thank you for all this great info!

Gregor Mendel should get the credit for starting the ball rolling.

 

[GoodShit97]

I’m going to be running my first S1 after the ladies come down. Thanks to this great place for introducing me to Greenpoint!

I juat ran 2 Gorilla Butter s1 beans from them and damn!
Both phenos were identical I swear, gnarly dirty rotten ape den terps it was insanely stinky

 

[SiamSam]

If you cross two inbred lines, like F4 and higher, the F1 generation should be nearly identical, too. But when you do an F2 generation, the individuals are more variable. You can have phenos like either grandparent and every combination in between.

So using the Golden Goat example, why wouldn't we see more phenos that look very similar to the Island Sweet Skunk parent, or the Hawaiian x Romulan parent? Theoretically, a breeder should be able to recreate phenos very similar to one grandparent or the other, after a few generations.

This seems like a no harm no foul unless: (1) the seeds were expensive and didn't produce as advertised. (2) If the finished weed is great that would be OK to. Why do we hear about so many seed vendors that aren't meeting expectations?

 

[SiamSam]

This takes at minimum; a year or 2+ to do it right, years.

1. F1 Generation (First Filial Generation):
   • The F1 generation is produced by crossing two purebred (homozygous) parental lines.
   • All offspring in the F1 generation are heterozygous for the traits being studied.
   • Example: If you cross two plants, one with red flowers (RR) and one with white flowers (WW), the F1 generation would all have pink flowers (RW).
2. F2 Generation (Second Filial Generation):
   • The F2 generation is produced by allowing the F1 individuals to interbreed or self-fertilize.
   • In the F2 generation, you observe segregation of traits according to Mendel's laws of inheritance.
   • Example: In the case of flower color, you might observe a phenotypic ratio of 1 red : 2 pink : 1 white.
3. F3 Generation (Third Filial Generation):
   • The F3 generation is produced by allowing the F2 individuals to interbreed or self-fertilize.
   • Traits continue to segregate, but with greater variation due to genetic recombination.
   • Example: If you're breeding for a specific trait, you might select individuals from the F2 generation that exhibit that trait and allow them to interbreed to produce the F3 generation, which may show increased expression of the desired trait.
4. F4 Generation (Fourth Filial Generation):
   • The F4 generation is produced by allowing the F3 individuals to interbreed or self-fertilize.
   • With each successive generation, there may be further segregation of traits, but also increasing stability if selective breeding is employed.
   • Example: You might continue selecting individuals with the desired trait and allowing them to interbreed to produce the F4 generation with even stronger expression of the desired trait.
5. F5 Generation (Fifth Filial Generation):
   • The F5 generation is produced by allowing the F4 individuals to interbreed or self-fertilize.
   • By this point, if the breeding program has been successful in stabilizing the desired trait, you would expect a high proportion of individuals in the F5 generation to exhibit the trait consistently.
   • Example: If you've been selecting for disease resistance in plants, by the F5 generation, you would expect the majority of plants to show resistance to the target disease.

1. F6 Generation (Sixth Filial Generation):
   • The F6 generation is produced by allowing the F5 individuals to interbreed or self-fertilize.
   • Traits continue to stabilize, and the population becomes more uniform in terms of the desired trait.
2. F7 Generation (Seventh Filial Generation):
   • The F7 generation is produced by allowing the F6 individuals to interbreed or self-fertilize.
   • The population further stabilizes, and genetic variation decreases.
3. F8 Generation (Eighth Filial Generation):
   • The F8 generation is produced by allowing the F7 individuals to interbreed or self-fertilize.
   • Traits are expected to be highly stable and consistent within the population.
4. F9 Generation (Ninth Filial Generation):
   • The F9 generation is produced by allowing the F8 individuals to interbreed or self-fertilize.
   • The population continues to exhibit stable traits, and genetic variation is further reduced.
5. F10 Generation (Tenth Filial Generation):

• The F10 generation is produced by allowing the F9 individuals to interbreed or self-fertilize.
• Traits are expected to be extremely stable, and the population may reach a high level of uniformity in terms of the desired traits.

as you can see, it naturally takes a decent amount of time to "properly" do it "right"


i suppose i would be working on my F2 generation, im not sure when i can start F3, and its still going to be another year or two proably before ill have anything worthy of public sale.

"Show me something Built to Last"

 

[SpectrumFarms]

I juat ran 2 Gorilla Butter s1 beans from them and damn!
Both phenos were identical I swear, gnarly dirty rotten ape den terps it was insanely stinky

My S1 Oreoz came in today!

 

[MDK]

My S1 Oreoz came in today!

Check out @Bandit420 his previous grow thread had some oreoz S1s I believe he said they were banging so I swooped a pack myself

 

[GoodShit97]

Check out @Bandit420 his previous grow thread had some oreoz S1s I believe he said they were banging so I swooped a pack myself

Was gonna say this too lol.

 

[Bandit420]

Check out @Bandit420 his previous grow thread had some oreoz S1s I believe he said they were banging so I swooped a pack myself

Was gonna say this too lol.

I've grown at least two of GPS S1 strains...Gorilla Butter and Oreoz. I wanna say there's a third in there somewhere but cant remember.
No problems with the S1 other than a runt or two peppered in but nothing alarming and yeah it turned out to be pretty good pot I'll eventually get around to growing again. Especially the Gorilla Butter because that shit is ruthless potent and kicks like an ornery mule