What is Mycorrhizae???

[Rootsruler]

"High levels of water-soluble nitrogen and phosphorus suppresses most mycorrhizal activity because it reduces the mutual needs of the host and the fungus. Plants that experience stress during production often develop a stronger relationship with their associated mycorrhizae. Controlled release and organic forms of fertilizers release their nutrients very slowly and do not increase the water-soluble nutrients in the substrate excessively. If you are accustomed to using an injector for constant feed programs, then use a fertilizer that is low in phosphorus and has a high percentage of nitrate-nitrogen. Consider reducing the 200-300 ppm N to 100-150 ppm N for a comparison. If you must apply a high phosphorus analysis fertilizer, we recommend applying it three or more weeks after inoculation to avoid inhibiting the mycorrhizal colonization."

Does this suggest that in the first few weeks of veg low N and P ratios are best in establishing a larger network of myco? It was also mentioned that it takes around 8 weeks for full network establishment. This would lead me to believe that while application at up pot is certainly beneficial the time factor in establishment says that application at seedling or clone level is optimal.

 

[CannaGranny]

"High levels of water-soluble nitrogen and phosphorus suppresses most mycorrhizal activity because it reduces the mutual needs of the host and the fungus. Plants that experience stress during production often develop a stronger relationship with their associated mycorrhizae. Controlled release and organic forms of fertilizers release their nutrients very slowly and do not increase the water-soluble nutrients in the substrate excessively. If you are accustomed to using an injector for constant feed programs, then use a fertilizer that is low in phosphorus and has a high percentage of nitrate-nitrogen. Consider reducing the 200-300 ppm N to 100-150 ppm N for a comparison. If you must apply a high phosphorus analysis fertilizer, we recommend applying it three or more weeks after inoculation to avoid inhibiting the mycorrhizal colonization."

Does this suggest that in the first few weeks of veg low N and P ratios are best in establishing a larger network of myco? It was also mentioned that it takes around 8 weeks for full network establishment. This would lead me to believe that while application at up pot is certainly beneficial the time factor in establishment says that application at seedling or clone level is optimal.

I can tell you this, on the side by side, when I up potted the difference in the root bed was phenomenal. When I up pot even in plants that I forgot to dust, there is a difference.
I don’t disagree that it may hit full blown in an eight week period, but it’s straight up beneficial from the jump.

 

[Amnesia]

I have a related thread: Using Recharge.

This would lead me to believe that while application at up pot is certainly beneficial the time factor in establishment says that application at seedling or clone level is optimal.

That's what I was thinking. It's alive and thus can propagate itself if conditions for its growth exist. The seedling mix I bought recently has mycorrhizae in it. It makes sense to me that stimulating root growth early would result in a more rapidly growing plant.

 

[Rootsruler]

@Aqua Man

So, for soil, how do we find that perfect ratio of N to feed our early veg, especially if we're steering through high PPFD where the increased photons are pulling more ions through the root system, and not suppress myco colonization?

If I'm going from seedling would application start when I place the tap root in the soil? Would I just dust the small hole that I'm putting the tap root in? Does the myco colony grow as the root ball grows or is the size of the colony determined by the amount of application hence the need for re application upon up pot?

If I'm going from clone, would it be best to apply myco dust directly to the exposed roots as root contact seems to be the goal before planting into the media?

After reading this I'm starting to see that soil advertised as having myco mixed in doesn't really do much until roots are actually moving through the part of the soil containing myco and even then it'll take weeks to establish. Some is better than none obviously but I'm curious how much actual benefit happens upon up pot application. If I applied at the solo cup stage I would typically up pot a couple weeks later and veg for an additional 3 - 4 weeks. This means that full colonization doesn't happen until week 2 of flip where higher P is desired. This would mean that at the point of full colonization I would be suppressing the effectiveness of the colony at its peak.

I'm obviously missing context but from what I've read these are the questions that popped into my head.

 

[Aqua Man]

@Aqua Man

So, for soil, how do we find that perfect ratio of N to feed our early veg, especially if we're steering through high PPFD where the increased photons are pulling more ions through the root system, and not suppress myco colonization?

If I'm going from seedling would application start when I place the tap root in the soil? Would I just dust the small hole that I'm putting the tap root in? Does the myco colony grow as the root ball grows or is the size of the colony determined by the amount of application hence the need for re application upon up pot?

If I'm going from clone, would it be best to apply myco dust directly to the exposed roots as root contact seems to be the goal before planting into the media?

After reading this I'm starting to see that soil advertised as having myco mixed in doesn't really do much until roots are actually moving through the part of the soil containing myco and even then it'll take weeks to establish. Some is better than none obviously but I'm curious how much actual benefit happens upon up pot application. If I applied at the solo cup stage I would typically up pot a couple weeks later and veg for an additional 3 - 4 weeks. This means that full colonization doesn't happen until week 2 of flip where higher P is desired. This would mean that at the point of full colonization I would be suppressing the effectiveness of the colony at its peak.

I'm obviously missing context but from what I've read these are the questions that popped into my head.

N is best fed at around 120-150 ppm anyhow. So its not really a concern. It would become so with large AG operations where they apply a lot in the beginning.

Application as early as possible is ideal.

Full colonization and symbiotic relationships are not just effective when reaching potential they are beneficial from the start and just become more beneficial as it goes.

They grow faster than roots ao imo its most important to use immediately. While you may not need to add more after initial application doing so at transplants likely speeds this up.

Lets not forget that conditions greatly effect the speed at which this occurs. Like I believe it was @CannaGranny said. Feed the soil not the plants when doing organics. So an environment that’s beneficial to the myco will be something to consider

 

[Aqua Man]

Also with organic sourced N your very unlike to over feed N without seeing sign of N tox with cannabis plants. N sensitivity is also plants specific. Different plants require different amounts. In cannabis its not much of an issue.

Part of the reason i say if doing organic you want a bigger pot size is specifically for the availability of nutrients. With synthetic we can feed immediately available nutrients. Not the case in organics so the larger the area the more food source and the more microbes to process it into available form

 

[CannaGranny]

I use a soil that comes pre inoculated. Even at that I try to never fail to use from the minute I pop that seed in soil , throughout my up potting. I go from a seed tray to a solo cup and from the solo cup to my seven gallon pots. So, three times.
I don’t rely on the fact that the soil already has it. Question is, how much? It could contain a teaspoon and be legally advertised as containing it.
It shows me quick effects on both seeds and clones. This tells me eight weeks is not needed for effects to show.
You were right in assuming that medium plays a huge roll, though.

 

[Rootsruler]

So now I'm thinking that early veg would best be served with a myco application at seedling or clone and dust the up pot hole on each transplant using only nutrition in the soil meaning no nutes for the first 2 - 3 weeks to keep N at a beneficial level for both myco and plant. After week 3 I could start salt ferts, GH said that my ferts have organics in them so I'm assuming that means that they won't hurt microbial colonies, at 25% the first few feedings so as not to upset the N ratio that would affect myco performance and ladder up the solution strength to around 60% before flip keeping an eye on what the leaves are telling me as far as how much N they want. The takeaway for me is less is more in terms of nutrient.

120 - 150 ppm? Is this for hydro or soil? I know that hydro needs less PPM than soil. I usually start at around 600ppm in early veg with amendments(silicate/hormex/calmag) outside of base being around 300 of the 600 ppm.

I use immediately available plant food but I want to have the organic breakdown occuring to backup whatever mistakes I may make on the feed side.

 

[Aqua Man]

So now I'm thinking that early veg would best be served with a myco application at seedling or clone and dust the up pot hole on each transplant using only nutrition in the soil meaning no nutes for the first 2 - 3 weeks to keep N at a beneficial level for both myco and plant. After week 3 I could start salt ferts, GH said that my ferts have organics in them so I'm assuming that means that they won't hurt microbial colonies, at 25% the first few feedings so as not to upset the N ratio that would affect myco performance and ladder up the solution strength to around 60% before flip keeping an eye on what the leaves are telling me as far as how much N they want. The takeaway for me is less is more in terms of nutrient.

120 - 150 ppm? Is this for hydro or soil? I know that hydro needs less PPM than soil. I usually start at around 600ppm in early veg with amendments(silicate/hormex/calmag) outside of base being around 300 of the 600 ppm.

I use immediately available plant food but I want to have the organic breakdown occuring to backup whatever mistakes I may make on the feed side.

They require the same amount of nutrients the difference is much or the soil pom has other things in it like tannins etc. than contribute to the ppm.

Remember ppm is a measurement of the total dissolved solids… not just nutrients…. And is only the measurement of particles dissolved in water. It doesn’t mean anything in terms of how much of what that makeup is.

For this reason soil N maybe around 150ppm of nitrogen ut the total ppm maybe 3000.

In hydroponic solutions it’s generally only nutrients are added and at 600ppm you may have the same 150ppm of nitrogen.

Now for that reason a ppm meter is NOT a good way to measure nutrient content from a slurry or runoff test in soil. And should only be used to look at trends.

Dont make the mistake of talking about ppms in terms of nutrients in soil its just not reliable.

 

[Aqua Man]

Also plants only take up nutrients that are dissolved in water. If you want to know the concentrations and makeup of soil then a soil analysis should be done. But also you need to consider the available and bound concentrations that require broken down to be available … there is a lot more to this.

 

[Rootsruler]

My tap water is 20ppm. I usually mix in my base first and measure then divide the ratio of the base to arrive at an approximate value.

 

[Observer]

Observer, what a fitting name haha...love the studies man, send back report!

Thanks b2 for this post, well needed info

Uploaded pics on all things shrooms thread


Some things grew on the synthetic nutes, coco and sugar!

 

[Bandit420]

I use Xtreme Gardening Mycos but I'm not sure if FloraNova is killing off the colony. I emailed GH trying to get a response. I asked them if the nutes I was using are usable in an organic setting. The response I got was that soome of the ingredients they use are organic. They didn't say much other than that which, I guess, leads me to believe that they are ok for organic gardening.

'Nova is 3-5% organic or 95-97% synthetic. GH has always been cagey about it because it stands alone on a patent and nobody else can copy it.

It was my choice when I was into hydro and it delivers results that are very close to organic but not as clean. There are ingredients in it that will kill off some species of microherds but at the same time ingredients in microherd products can kill off each other. In the end, trichoderma usually wins out then it's time to inoculate all over again. Combined with 'Nova, that's about every two weeks.

 

[Observer]

Technically at that point yea, I'd attempt to get the mycos from it, it does have bennies as well.

But my solution always consist of hypo acid and 34% h2o2

The myco seems to live sometimes, but I think I kill it off eventually. Along with the bennies.

Ok here's what appears fuzzy roots leading to myco/colonized roots

All though these are hit everyday with h2o2 and hypo acid.

If it is myco, which it appears, either they tolerate it, dont care, or built up a tolerance/resistance

(?)

 

[Observer]

Ok here's what appears fuzzy roots leading to myco/colonized roots

All though these are hit everyday with h2o2 and hypo acid.

If it is myco, which it appears, either they tolerate it, dont care, or built up a tolerance/resistance

(?)

@ZombieRider
@Aqua Man

 

[Amnesia]

@Observer - What type of nutrients are you using? My understanding is that H2O2 doesn't stop root development. It only sterilizes the growing medium. So, if you're using synthetic nutrients, growth could still occur. Is the plant healthy?

 

[Observer]

@Observer - What type of nutrients are you using?

My understanding is that H2O2 doesn't stop root development.

It only sterilizes the growing medium. So, if you're using synthetic nutrients, growth could still occur. Is the plant healthy?

No it won't stop it but it can oxidize and kill myco and bacteria as well.

I'd have to read how h2o2 works again, but it releases free radical oxygen molecule(?) And/or a negatively charged oxygen molecule?

And it doesn't interact the same as dissolved oxygen (?)- as in it can be destructive to cells.

I think it was this plant with the myco looking roots, I went ahead and up-potted.

Looks healthy to me, longer node spacing indicates more light.

 

[Observer]

@Observer - What type of nutrients are you using? My understanding is that H2O2 doesn't stop root development. It only sterilizes the growing medium. So, if you're using synthetic nutrients, growth could still occur. Is the plant healthy?

15-0-0 cal nit
5-12-26
Epsom salt
34% peroxide
Pool shock, super simple.

 

[Aqua Man]

@ZombieRider
@Aqua Man

I cant see myco but my eyes are shit

 

[ZombieRider]

Ok here's what appears fuzzy roots leading to myco/colonized roots

All though these are hit everyday with h2o2 and hypo acid.

If it is myco, which it appears, either they tolerate it, dont care, or built up a tolerance/resistance

(?)

Damn that does appear to be some sort of colony on those roots. Kinda throws the whole "sterile" rootzone idea out of the window. Roots looking healthy af

 

[ZombieRider]

I cant see myco but my eyes are shit

The roots at the middle are covered in a white fuzzy growth similar to myco. Almost looks like the roots are growing tons if feeder roots though so i cant be sure. Is it possible for anything to survive an h202+hypo acid wash?

 

[Amnesia]

Is it possible for anything to survive an h202+hypo acid wash?

Apparently roots can.

 

[Amnesia]

Just some info you all may want.

Mycorrhizae FAQs - Mycorrhizal Applications

Mycorrhizal Applications is the industry leader in the research and development of commercial mycorrhizal fungi soil inoculants designed for all industries involving soils, plants, and people. Experts in the production of endomycorrhizae and ectomycorrhizae.

mycorrhizae.com

This is extremely helpful. Thanks so much!

According to the "Usage and Application" section, mycorrhizal fungi can be applied in many ways, including by watering, which is different from the advice I've seen on forums. It's also clear that timing may be most important for its application--the sooner it's applied, the better.

It seems to me that mycorrhizal fungi are best for organic growing. Is that right?

It also seems to me that because "mycorrhizal fungi act as living extensions of the plant’s root system," their presence would not directly enhance root growth. Instead, the opposite would be the case because these fungi do what roots cannot do. Therefore, plants need fewer roots. Perhaps the plants produce more roots simply because they're healthier.

 

[Rootsruler]

'Nova is 3-5% organic or 95-97% synthetic. GH has always been cagey about it because it stands alone on a patent and nobody else can copy it.

It was my choice when I was into hydro and it delivers results that are very close to organic but not as clean. There are ingredients in it that will kill off some species of microherds but at the same time ingredients in microherd products can kill off each other. In the end, trichoderma usually wins out then it's time to inoculate all over again. Combined with 'Nova, that's about every two weeks.

BTW, I was speaking to one of the botanists that worked at one of the LGO's I worked at recently and he told me that when people say that this or that nutrient "kills" microbes that is incorrect. Microbial life doesn't die. It just becomes inactive because conditions aren't conducive to it. Once those conditions are met they will reactivate.

I sent him a link to the site. Hopefully he joins.

 

[Observer]

The roots at the middle are covered in a white fuzzy growth similar to myco. Almost looks like the roots are growing tons if feeder roots though so i cant be sure. Is it possible for anything to survive an h202+hypo acid wash?

Well it's there, or what looks like colonized roots lol

Maybe those dosages are too small


I do one gram of pool shock for a gallon concentrate, and then 1-5ml of hypo acid with every solution 2-5ml 34% h2o2 every night 2-8waterings a day

Hand-dripping into the cups

That myco would have been from 50 waterings ago or so lol

 

[MDK]

I cant see myco but my eyes are shit

Your evolving into a true man of water

 

[ninjadip]

Is this fuzzy stuff myco or just roots exploring?

 

[Aqua Man]

Root hairs

 

[Amnesia]

What I've read is that mycorrhizal fungi are not visible because they're too small. For example...

Mycorrhizal fungi are characterised by very thin hyphae, which are between 1 and 10 thousandths of a millimetre in width. These hyphae explore the soil for nutrients, transport them back to the host-plant, and help bind soil particles into aggregates.

Source: http://www.soilhealth.com/soil-health/biology/beneficial/fungi/index.htm

 

[ninjadip]

Root hairs

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