Great White Shark Attack

[steamroller]

My base knowledge came from the Ed Rosenthal Bible back in the 80's.
He was cutting edge back then.

 

[Bandit420]

My base knowledge came from the Ed Rosenthal Bible back in the 80's.
He was cutting edge back then.

Ed pretty much wrote the user manual for weed with that one.
To this day, I still use his step by step in cutting clones. Seen a lot of other ways to do it since but none as good as his.
I remember Chef Ra too when it was just cooking with weed and "edibles" wasn't even a term yet.

I'll never understand why there is such a disconnect between the internet and the grow books. Books are books but sometimes the internet is more like an infomercial of information where yeah you're getting info but it's designed to get you to buy a product and not info to use the product currently in your hand.

I also remember the book you buy was a sort of signal about how serious you were about growing your own.
I know for me and coming home with that book, the world would be very different going forward. No more flipping thru pages of High Times and the "growers tips" section. With the handbook in my hands it was like having all the growers tips at my disposal and I was gonna rock it!

 

[Stoneyluv]

i kinda forgot about the mags... had to dig some out... the OG bud porn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

we went and met a few high times writers and got signed calendars from tower books back in the day.. to us it was like meeting movie stars!!!!! hahaha



i remember looking at ads for phototrons!!!! remember these things?

 

[Bandit420]

i kinda forgot about the mags... had to dig some out... the OG bud porn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

we went and met a few high times writers and got signed calendars from tower books back in the day.. to us it was like meeting movie stars!!!!! hahaha

View attachment 121838

i remember looking at ads for phototrons!!!! remember these things?

I had a phototron!
You know that pruning thing I do that's half mainline and half topping?
Picked that up in the Phototron manual

The hydro tech in it was super weird. It was pretty much a bucket style bottom filled with sphagnum moss, powdered nutes like koolaid, and it came with a little pH test and drop kit to keep it at 7.0. It was before the time everybody figured out a much lower pH was needed for hydro.

Here's where it gets fun. The Phototron was the precursor to the Tek2 grow light. yeah...this Tek2!!

Tek Light 2 Foot Lamp | Purchase GrowBright T5 High Output Grow Light | HTG Supply

The HTG Supply 2' TEK Light comes complete with two high-output PLL-55W T5 BIAX fluorescent bulbs. Powerful output and versatility make the 2' TEK light perfect for orchids, small gardens, cloning/cuttings, mother plants or supplemental lighting. TEK lights are the preferred lighting systems for...

www.htgsupply.com

Tek2 was the bridge between floro and HID and was indeed part of the building block research that led to LED grow light research (blurple) which led to brands like Lumigrow and Illumitex then later the brands we see today like Fluence and Gavita which were then copied by Samsung and Bridgelux giving us AC Infinity and Mars Hydro and the like.
You know that game, 6 ways to Kevin Bacon? Same thing. In 6 steps I can link today's widely used grow tech to the Phototron

 

[Stoneyluv]

I had a phototron!
You know that pruning thing I do that's half mainline and half topping?
Picked that up in the Phototron manual

wait, you mean what i have written on the dork board in my grow cabinet?!?!?! hot damn!!!! man if my 20yr old self could see it now!!!!! hhahahaha



thats just crazy how it all comes back to the beginning!!!!

plants are adjusting to the new nutes fine.. i still have the ph doser turned off.. one day it's a point high, next day its a point low.. just rides that wave back and forth.. maybe this tells me maybe my water has some buffer but could maybe use a little more?? not sure but i'll keep watching it.. ppms seem to ride a low and high wave.. hmmm..

i cut out a few of the burned leaves the other day.. still work in progress..

 

[doublej]

wait, you mean what i have written on the dork board in my grow cabinet?!?!?! hot damn!!!! man if my 20yr old self could see it now!!!!! hhahahaha

View attachment 121892

thats just crazy how it all comes back to the beginning!!!!

plants are adjusting to the new nutes fine.. i still have the ph doser turned off.. one day it's a point high, next day its a point low.. just rides that wave back and forth.. maybe this tells me maybe my water has some buffer but could maybe use a little more?? not sure but i'll keep watching it.. ppms seem to ride a low and high wave.. hmmm..

i cut out a few of the burned leaves the other day.. still work in progress..

View attachment 121896View attachment 121897View attachment 121898View attachment 121899

Fuck bud...they look much better man!!!!

 

[Stoneyluv]

Fuck bud...they look much better man!!!!

hydro plants seem to go south real quick but can also rebound pretty quick too..

the darker green is coming back and you can see the red in stems dissipating away..

i think they like the lucas!! i'm gonna keep documenting the numbers and watching the leaves for now. although i'm gonna have to mix more up soon, the top off is almost empty. the rez ppm has been drifting up and down about 20 ppms everyday so i might just mix the same strength the have now.. i'll just mix like 5 gallons or so till i know for sure.

 

[Observer]

hydro plants seem to go south real quick but can also rebound pretty quick too..

.

i think they like the lucas!! i'm gonna keep documenting the numbers and watching the leaves for now. although i'm gonna have to mix more up soon, the top off is almost empty. the rez ppm has been drifting up and down about 20 ppms everyday so i might just mix the same strength the have now.. i'll just mix like 5 gallons or so till i know for sure.

What did you change, exactly.

""the darker green is coming back and you can see the red in stems dissipating away"

So it was a antagonism or ratio imbalance issue?

 

[Stoneyluv]

What did you change, exactly.

i dumped out the rez, shop vac'd the plant sites and then pumped in the lucas recipe at 1/4 strength. no cal mag just GH micros and bloom. after the temps came up i added great white to the rez.

nothing else. made it as simple as i could..

So it was a antagonism or ratio imbalance issue?

time will tell for sure but at the moment its looking so. i mean i'm using the exact same unbleached system, i'm using the nutes from the exact same bottles, and i'm using the exact same water source. and the great white from the same jar. the only difference is there is no calimagic and the ratios.

roots don't look as white as i'd like so i was thinking of maybe adding enzymes.

tempted to add mr fulvic but i won't!! i 'll keep it as simple as i can for now to get back on track and narrow it down.

 

[Observer]

i dumped out the rez, shop vac'd the plant sites and then pumped in the lucas recipe at 1/4 strength. no cal mag just GH micros and bloom. after the temps came up i added great white to the rez.

nothing else. made it as simple as i could..



time will tell for sure but at the moment its looking so. i mean i'm using the exact same unbleached system, i'm using the nutes from the exact same bottles, and i'm using the exact same water source. and the great white from the same jar. the only difference is there is no calimagic and the ratios.

roots don't look as white as i'd like so i was thinking of maybe adding enzymes.

tempted to add mr fulvic but i won't!! i 'll keep it as simple as i can for now to get back on track and narrow it down.

So you left out the calmag, maybe the extra calcium from that and the water source was causing a antagonism?

I would say use Mr fulvic, if anything it should help, it's just acids and helps act as a nutrient chelator/nutrient absorption....

Though, maybe "one part" of that could of helped the calcium inhibition/uptake antagonism? Not sure on that part.

Enzymes will "exfoliate" the roots, should not hurt imo.

A few mL of 3% h2o2 shouldn't hurt.

 

[Stoneyluv]

So you left out the calmag, maybe the extra calcium from that and the water source was causing a antagonism?

could have been.. i need to have my water sent out and tested. i'd like three tests, my tap, my tap after filter, and my rain water. i need to get on that!!!

I would say use Mr fulvic, if anything it should help, it's just acids and helps act as a nutrient chelator/nutrient absorption....

Though, maybe "one part" of that could of helped the calcium inhibition/uptake antagonism? Not sure on that part.

well we can test it... right now i'm gonna let it alone and not add any. if everything is still happy in a couple days i'll add it and we'll monitor..

i have enough to last a couple days..



if i'm down there for more than say twenty minutes i can here the top off pump cycle.. they're drinking pretty steady again.

i've never seen the ppms and the ph bounce like this though, one time it will be 5.8 and 280, then 5.9 and 270.. then back again for like three days now... is this normal?

nzymes will "exfoliate" the roots, should not hurt imo.

they're not terrible but not great either.. smells a little like an old fish tank today right in the middle of that brown spot..

 

[Observer]

""i've never seen the ppms and the ph bounce like this though, one time it will be 5.8 and 280, then 5.9 and 270.. then back again for like three days now... is this normal?""
Are you also calculating that the pH doser isn't running, into this calculation?

That makes me think the plant is adjusting its "own pH" to absorb nutrients in that range, is that what is actually realistically happening?

I don't know/can not factually state.

 

[Stoneyluv]

Are you also calculating that the pH doser isn't running, into this calculation?

i thought i was going crazy for a second...i looked a lttle bit ago and it was 5.9 i went down to snap those photos and it was 5.8 i stood there for a minute and it went back to 5.9... i shook my head and thought i'm getting the hell out if here before i mess something up!!!! hahaha

i was thinking of adding the mr fulvic, then when i saw that i was like nope!!!! hahaha i ran away!!!!! hahahaha

 

[Observer]

i thought i was going crazy for a second...i looked a lttle bit ago and it was 5.9 i went down to snap those photos and it was 5.8 i stood there for a minute and it went back to 5.9... i shook my head and thought i'm getting the hell out if here before i mess something up!!!! hahaha

i was thinking of adding the mr fulvic, then when i saw that i was like nope!!!! hahaha i ran away!!!!! hahahaha

As long as it between 5.4-6.2 , I don't think you need to worry about the pH

 

[Stoneyluv]

As long as it between 5.4-6.2 , I don't think you need to worry about the pH

i watched it move three times while i was down there mixing up some top off nutes... pretty crazy.. and my meter is calibrated with temp compensation.

.

i mixed up five gallons of nutes at the exact same strength. the formula called out for 6.25ml of micro and 12.5 ml of bloom.

I can hear Grump now, how the hell you gonna measure 6.25 and 12.5.... well... it;s like this and like that!!!! hahahaha



mixed it up and no ph adjustment necessary,,, this is so easy, i could quickly fall in luv with this mix if it works!!!!

now got eight gallons of good stuff in the tank...



and the updated dork board nerd stuff.....

 

[Stoneyluv]

been a week now on the lucas formula/no calmag.. plants are growing.. the solution itself have been steady as can be, no ph movement at all anymore, that .1 dance it was dong settled out the very next day and i haven't seen it other than 5.8 all week.

on monday night i added Mr humic to the rez and top off. the ph dove down .2 but was back up in a few hours and hasn't moved since. the EC is slightly climbing over the week so maybe i should drop 50ppm?? not sure letting them ride for now but they're not 100% happy, i still see the red stem come in and then leaf burn to follow. i'm kinda focusing on the red right now and research says it can be a pretty wide variety of things..

the pics and stuff.. oh yea, and i trimmed the roots on each one last night...









they only drank one gallon total since i added the topoff solution on sunday night. thought maybe they would have drank more. i even lowered the RH 5% to help em sweat it out more..

something is still just a tad off i feel.. i've looked into the red stem and red veins and it can be so many things... genetics is one, we cancel this out immediately.. i still have the mom growing just feet away on the same nutrient diet and no red at all...

light can be one.. i raised them up today... the mom is under the exact same spectrum and generation light, the mom is just under a much smaller light. and also i have clones in there and not having this issue at all.

nutrient lockout of like seven different things can cause this.. i'm betting that it's one or more of these.. so last night i just started them back on the foliar feeds to see if it's a lockout. i plan to spray them once or twice a day and watch the red petioles. this has been the first negative sign, then the veins, then the yellowing, then the burns.. all happens quick too, hours not days.

i know i've said this before but i feel i'm so close to solving this... it's like right there dammit!!!

 

[GrumpAzz]

This makes total sense now... it's the calcium

Calcium demand goes up as the weeks go by so that's why your plants were eventually growing out of it... right? They were getting deficiencies because of calcium's antagonism, but you change the res and reset the ratios often enough that you've kept it between the ditches.

Am I crazy or did we just fix your shit?

Also... if it makes you feel any better, I get red stems OFTEN. Nearly every grow. These clones of mine went in the new tent weit DEEP red stalks. It's still there.

I do like that you're diving into it though and I'm anxious to see if you get it figured out.

They do look 10x better

 

[Observer]

red stems : possible causes & fixes.

• genetics
• light intensity
• temp swings
• mild P stress
• or Ca transport stress

 

[Observer]

This makes total sense now... it's the calcium

Calcium demand goes up as the weeks go by so that's why your plants were eventually growing out of it... right? They were getting deficiencies because of calcium's antagonism, but you change the res and reset the ratios often enough that you've kept it between the ditches.

Am I crazy or did we just fix your shit?

Also... if it makes you feel any better, I get red stems OFTEN. Nearly every grow. These clones of mine went in the new tent weit DEEP red stalks. It's still there.

I do like that you're diving into it though and I'm anxious to see if you get it figured out.

They do look 10x better

i started to think it may possibly of been a Ca-Antagonism.

 

[Stoneyluv]

This makes total sense now... it's the calcium

Calcium demand goes up as the weeks go by so that's why your plants were eventually growing out of it... right? They were getting deficiencies because of calciums antagonism, but you change the res and reset the ratios often enough that you've kept it between the ditches.

Am I crazy or did we just fix your shit?

excessive calcium can also create serious nutrient imbalances. An excess of calcium primarily affects the plant’s ability to absorb other essential nutrients, such as magnesium, potassium, and iron, leading to secondary deficiencies that may slow growth and reduce overall yield.

Cannabis calcium toxicity symptoms​

• Nutrient lockout of other cations like magnesium, potassium, and iron
• Interveinal chlorosis or mottling on young leaves due to magnesium or iron deficiency
• Rust-like spots or necrosis on leaves, especially if potassium uptake is affected
• Stunted growth or distorted new leaves
• Burned tips or edges from overall nutrient imbalance
• Leaf curl or deformation

they are better looking for sure.. still not right though.. makes a bunch of things line up from the past though.. i wonder if it might just take more time?

i wonder if maybe i'm babying them too much right now if it is the Ca? like maybe bring everything else up but the Ca? just to help bring that ratio in a little tighter..

the chart says to lower EC but this chart i bet is made for heathy plants...

 

[GrumpAzz]

the chart says to lower EC but this chart i bet is made for heathy plants...

We're talking about a pretty small rise in ppm, right? Your calender above only shows a rise of 10ppm. Where was it at when you started, 270? So 20 in a week.

It's not gonna hurt anything if you wanna add some water to bring down your EC, but I'd say let's just wait a couple days and keep eye on it. You'll need a res change soonish anyway, eh?

 

[GrumpAzz]

Here's the redness I mentioned...

It was a deep red but they've grown out of it. The problem no longer exists but the evidence remains.

 

[steamroller]

So quick searches do indeed claim calcium can be found in rain water.
If that is all this is then there is one more reason to not run hydro if you can't run RO.
Test for Ca in freshwater are not the most common so I will conclude not the most accurate.
Even if you knew you have excess Ca then the solution for it is filtering it out .
Some aquarium chlorine removers lay claim to detoxifying heavy metals but they also detoxify ammonia, nitrite, and nitrates which may not be a good thing? I am not sure on this. I know many who use the best conditioner [ seachem Prime ] do have planted tanks so maybe it has no effect on what you add to your water. Possibly if used only collection barrel and not the system it is an easy solution.
Seachem Purigen is a media that is easily recharged/re usable that also removes heavy metals and such.

Seachem Purigen Remove Heavy Metals​

Seachem Purigen is specifically designed to remove heavy metals from aquarium water. It is an inert media that allows large colonies of beneficial bacteria to live in it, making it suitable for aquaria that have previously been treated with copper or are at high risk for heavy metal buildup. Purigen's unique macroporous structure allows it to effectively remove heavy metals without affecting other contaminants. This makes it an excellent choice for maintaining water quality in aquariums that require heavy metal removal.

I used both Prime conditioner and purigen in my aquariums.

 

[Stoneyluv]

We're talking about a pretty small rise in ppm, right? Your calender above only shows a rise of 10ppm. Where was it at when you started, 270? So 20 in a week.

It's not gonna hurt anything if you wanna add some water to bring down your EC, but I'd say let's just wait a couple days and keep eye on it. You'll need a res change soonish anyway, eh?

yes sir 20ppms. well the past two days it came down to 280. to recap i started last wednesday the 24th with this solution. it was 270 below and 260 above when i first started. after a week it climbed to 290. days 8-9-10 it has been 280ppm.

the only drank a little over a gallon in that time.

wasn't planning on a rez change.. the ph hasn't moved at all and is still 5.8 right now.

maybe i should just be more patient and wait it out a little longer. i have no idea how long it takes for a Ca toxic scenario takes to recover from.

i'm still getting the red veins in the leaves followed by the burns though. i think if it doesn't go away by mid week i'm gonna try bumping the EC way up and see if maybe the Ca to NPK ratio is still maybe too high so i'll try jacking up the NPK and micros and see what happens.

this is a shot is from right now... the leaf pics are from a couple days ago.. the leds make the red look more pronounced.

Here's the redness I mentioned...
View attachment 122238
It was a deep red but they've grown out of it. The problem no longer exists but the evidence remains.

i believe the red you are showing comes from just an underfeed while rooting. i've seen this in clones in the past. the stalks i would be able to accept more my issue is in the leaf veins.. they should be white just like their mom plant is right now... having that mom plant still growing down there is actually helping me. yeah i still have it!! haha

So quick searches do indeed claim calcium can be found in rain water.
If that is all this is then there is one more reason to not run hydro if you can't run RO.
Test for Ca in freshwater are not the most common so I will conclude not the most accurate.
Even if you knew you have excess Ca then the solution for it is filtering it out .
Some aquarium chlorine removers lay claim to detoxifying heavy metals but they also detoxify ammonia, nitrite, and nitrates which may not be a good thing? I am not sure on this. I know many who use the best conditioner [ seachem Prime ] do have planted tanks so maybe it has no effect on what you add to your water. Possibly if used only collection barrel and not the system it is an easy solution.
Seachem Purigen is a media that is easily recharged/re usable that also removes heavy metals and such.

Seachem Purigen Remove Heavy Metals​

Seachem Purigen is specifically designed to remove heavy metals from aquarium water. It is an inert media that allows large colonies of beneficial bacteria to live in it, making it suitable for aquaria that have previously been treated with copper or are at high risk for heavy metal buildup. Purigen's unique macroporous structure allows it to effectively remove heavy metals without affecting other contaminants. This makes it an excellent choice for maintaining water quality in aquariums that require heavy metal removal.

I used both Prime conditioner and purigen in my aquariums.

very very cool man!!! i think i want to get this for my koi pond if nothing else... i spoil the hell out of those fish man!!! they're food cost almost as much as mine!!! hahaha

i could put this filtering down in my waterfall box and let it pass through right there..

my koi pond gets auto topped off from a rain collector from my garage roof. i really need to send samples out of all my water and just see.. i think it's all okay but i'd really like to know for sure.

i've been using my rain water for this whole round of soil plants but have not used it once in hydro this round at all. these great white sharks have been on tap water only since the beginning. first with 1.5ml per gallon of cal/mag and trio.. (yes, an additional amount of Ca, i was just following the chart i didn;t know) now i'm on lucas formula and no cal/mag at all just whats in the tap water.

the burns almost look in the center where the light blasts the most... just spit ballin all ideas... i did raise the lights recently and lowered the power. i tried to match the same amount the mom is getting.

 

[Stoneyluv]

this is the mom plant... or should i say mutha plant!!!! haha



clones are still kickin too...



.

and this is how i watered the the clones and mom plant this entire time,,, i mean maybe once in a while it was just water but for the most part they drank the exact same solution... did the soil buffer out the Calcium more? but what about the clones... no soil there.. just a tray of water.. no airstone or anything. a heatmat underneath the tray is all. why aren't they toxic with Ca?

https://imgur.com/a/vMhjPIv

 

[GrumpAzz]

yes sir 20ppms. well the past two days it came down to 280. to recap i started last wednesday the 24th with this solution. it was 270 below and 260 above when i first started. after a week it climbed to 290. days 8-9-10 it has been 280ppm.

the only drank a little over a gallon in that time.

wasn't planning on a rez change.. the ph hasn't moved at all and is still 5.8 right now.

maybe i should just be more patient and wait it out a little longer. i have no idea how long it takes for a Ca toxic scenario takes to recover from.

i'm still getting the red veins in the leaves followed by the burns though. i think if it doesn't go away by mid week i'm gonna try bumping the EC way up and see if maybe the Ca to NPK ratio is still maybe too high so i'll try jacking up the NPK and micros and see what happens.

this is a shot is from right now... the leaf pics are from a couple days ago.. the leds make the red look more pronounced.

View attachment 122529

View attachment 122530
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Your new growth seems to come in without the redness, right? How long before the redness shows up?

i believe the red you are showing comes from just an underfeed while rooting. i've seen this in clones in the past. the stalks i would be able to accept more my issue is in the leaf veins.. they should be white just like their mom plant is right now... having that mom plant still growing down there is actually helping me. yeah i still have it!! haha

I'm with ya. I'm pretty sure my issue came from a lockout due to pH issues. They're getting 4-500ppm in that setup, but I had a wicked high pH when I finally got around to checking.

I moreso just wanted to show how it looked after a week of correcting the issus. Mine have clearly grown out of it, evidenced by the stalk and that couple inches of green before the red starts.

 

[Stoneyluv]

Your new growth seems to come in without the redness, right? How long before the redness shows up?


I'm with ya. I'm pretty sure my issue came from a lockout due to pH issues. They're getting 4-500ppm in that setup, but I had a wicked high pH when I finally got around to checking.

I moreso just wanted to show how it looked after a week of correcting the issus. Mine have clearly grown out of it, evidenced by the stalk and that couple inches of green before the red starts.

seems to always happen to the third node down of fan leaves. newest growth is white veins.

i thought maybe they were getting better but it seems the same, i've been foliar feeding everyday and if it was a nute issue i'd think that would show an improvement in a couple days. i haven't removed any burned leaves in the past week.

 

[GrumpAzz]

Charts look like there's a zinc or sulfur deficiency... i'm struggling here because the res behaves

 

[Stoneyluv]

Charts look like there's a zinc or sulfur deficiency... i'm struggling here because the res behaves

right now at the 280pms i'm 1/4 strength of the formula. if i don't see an improvement in the next couple days i'm going to add more nutes to bring it up to 3/4 strength. and if that does nothing and or makes it worse even then plan B is to dump it all out and try a different line of nutes.

IF it gets to this plan B i think i'm gonna dump the rez out and fill with just plain water and nothing else for a few days and see how they react. i've grown clones in my areocloner well past the point of calling them clones and were full on veg plants at that point and it was with just plain water. maybe a total reset!

 

[steamroller]

Charts look like there's a zinc or sulfur deficiency... i'm struggling here because the res behaves

I saw sulfur excess, potassium def and manganese excess in my charts and searches.
Just seems weird.

^Potassium^

The burned tips say excess of something IMO but possibly raising overall ppm will even out ratios.