Far Red

Rootsruler

Know it all
Joined
Apr 14, 2023
Messages
3,257
Reaction score
14,557
My current grow just left week 6. One of the lights I have is a blurple style with a veg and bloom switch and the other is a white light LED. The veg turns on the blue diodes and the bloom turns on the red diodes.

My question is do you think it would be advantageous to turn off the veg diodes and shower the canopy with just red the last couple weeks of flower? The light has IR diodes too. I'm not sure if removing all blue will screw up the grow. They'll get residual blue from the white light LED but not directly. I understand that turning off the veg diodes will lower the intensity but in a couple weeks I'll be tapering down PPFD anyways.
 
OK, without getting to soap boxy, I would say yes, ditch the blue for the final flower stage.

Not sure where that green is coming from - I think the spectrum published is questionable - but you want that gone too. Recent studies have shown green in flower to reduce THC.

Red does all sorts of cool signals to the plants, and that's what you want right now, simulate fall where the sun is low in the sky and the added atmosphere filters out blue far more than red.
 
OK, without getting to soap boxy, I would say yes, ditch the blue for the final flower stage.

Not sure where that green is coming from - I think the spectrum published is questionable - but you want that gone too. Recent studies have shown green in flower to reduce THC.

Red does all sorts of cool signals to the plants, and that's what you want right now, simulate fall where the sun is low in the sky and the added atmosphere filters out blue far more than red.
Yeah! Not so sure on the chart but it's probably in the ballpark. The girls are in week 7. Do you think it would be best to expose them to red now or wait until the last couple weeks?
 
OK, without getting to soap boxy, I would say yes, ditch the blue for the final flower stage.

Not sure where that green is coming from - I think the spectrum published is questionable - but you want that gone too. Recent studies have shown green in flower to reduce THC.

Red does all sorts of cool signals to the plants, and that's what you want right now, simulate fall where the sun is low in the sky and the added atmosphere filters out blue far more than red.
No light expert here- and I don’t disagree with eliminating the blue but in this case wouldn’t intensity trump spectrum ?
 
No light expert here- and I don’t disagree with eliminating the blue but in this case wouldn’t intensity trump spectrum ?
Yes I think it does right now. It looks to me like they are still bulking not really to the final ripening stage yet. I’d leave the ppfd the same. If you can manage that and still turn down blue go for it. But I think you want more photons than less right now personally.

I could be wrong so many variables but that is my best gut reaction. You also have multiple genetics there that might finish at different times making it a bit harder on you.
 
Yes I think it does right now. It looks to me like they are still bulking not really to the final ripening stage yet. I’d leave the ppfd the same. If you can manage that and still turn down blue go for it. But I think you want more photons than less right now personally.

I could be wrong so many variables but that is my best gut reaction. You also have multiple genetics there that might finish at different times making it a bit harder on you.
Yes. I agree. As I taper down I'll turn off the grow switch and check PPFD to see if it's sufficient to what I need if not then I'll go with intensity over spectrum.
 
My current grow just left week 6. One of the lights I have is a blurple style with a veg and bloom switch and the other is a white light LED. The veg turns on the blue diodes and the bloom turns on the red diodes.

My question is do you think it would be advantageous to turn off the veg diodes and shower the canopy with just red the last couple weeks of flower? The light has IR diodes too. I'm not sure if removing all blue will screw up the grow. They'll get residual blue from the white light LED but not directly. I understand that turning off the veg diodes will lower the intensity but in a couple weeks I'll be tapering down PPFD anyways.

I do the opposite and go all blue and use UVB too.
Might go a little further with my current grow and swap out an LED for my old CMH and run a 10,000K finishing lamp just so I can have more blue and UV intensity at the end.
Finishing is probably the only advantage HID has over LED. The 10K finisher lamps for HPS and CMH are way better, or more effective at increasing terps and potency than floro UV and blue LED diodes. Back in the day we'd finish with halide but the 10Ks are better for that job.
If plants can respond to it, usually indicas, blues at the end can make them drip trichs and oil, increasing terp loads and potency
 
Yes I think it does right now. It looks to me like they are still bulking not really to the final ripening stage yet. I’d leave the ppfd the same. If you can manage that and still turn down blue go for it. But I think you want more photons than less right now personally.

I could be wrong so many variables but that is my best gut reaction. You also have multiple genetics there that might finish at different times making it a bit harder on you.
Def gonna finish different the moonglow will go 10 at least the other 2 mayb 8/9 weeks
 
I do the opposite and go all blue and use UVB too.
Might go a little further with my current grow and swap out an LED for my old CMH and run a 10,000K finishing lamp just so I can have more blue and UV intensity at the end.
Finishing is probably the only advantage HID has over LED. The 10K finisher lamps for HPS and CMH are way better, or more effective at increasing terps and potency than floro UV and blue LED diodes. Back in the day we'd finish with halide but the 10Ks are better for that job.
If plants can respond to it, usually indicas, blues at the end can make them drip trichs and oil, increasing terp loads and potency
I’m an old mh/HPS grower too. Been playing with uva and b for a while. I know what you are talking about.

A lot of the phytochrome response is genetic. Something from the mountains in Afghanistan is going to expect more uv than something at sea level away from the equator.

So many variables with spectrum there are only generalizations really. Even nutrients available to the plant can change the way certain spectrums are absorbed.

I’ve had 2 plants side by side of different genetics and one loves uv and the other hates it.
 
I’m an old mh/HPS grower too. Been playing with uva and b for a while. I know what you are talking about.

A lot of the phytochrome response is genetic. Something from the mountains in Afghanistan is going to expect more uv than something at sea level away from the equator.

So many variables with spectrum there are only generalizations really. Even nutrients available to the plant can change the way certain spectrums are absorbed.

I’ve had 2 plants side by side of different genetics and one loves uv and the other hates it.
What type of UV lamps you using?
All of mine are T5HO 24" but I have two types..One is just UVB and the other is UVB and UVA. I think the second is more for reptiles but being sold to growers while the one with just UVB is horticulture. The one with UVA sketches me out and I'm kinda afraid to use it because I've seen them cook plants when too close.
I want my plants to turn white with all the frost but not get torched. It's very much a dance with the devil playing around with UV
 
What type of UV lamps you using?
All of mine are T5HO 24" but I have two types..One is just UVB and the other is UVB and UVA. I think the second is more for reptiles but being sold to growers while the one with just UVB is horticulture. The one with UVA sketches me out and I'm kinda afraid to use it because I've seen them cook plants when too close.
I want my plants to turn white with all the frost but not get torched. It's very much a dance with the devil playing around with UV
I’ve got a bunch. UVA led bars, far red, uvb 12” 24” and 48” tubes. I used flower power by solacure for my best results.

Easy to overdo it.
 
I do the opposite and go all blue and use UVB too.
Might go a little further with my current grow and swap out an LED for my old CMH and run a 10,000K finishing lamp just so I can have more blue and UV intensity at the end.
Finishing is probably the only advantage HID has over LED. The 10K finisher lamps for HPS and CMH are way better, or more effective at increasing terps and potency than floro UV and blue LED diodes. Back in the day we'd finish with halide but the 10Ks are better for that job.
If plants can respond to it, usually indicas, blues at the end can make them drip trichs and oil, increasing terp loads and potency
Interesting. The conventional wisdom from most everyone has always been that red and, somewhat recently, far red are essential to a good finish.

Please explain the biology that goes on when you do this. I've always been taught that excess blue spectrum in flower will promote more leaf growth.
 
Interesting. The conventional wisdom from most everyone has always been that red and, somewhat recently, far red are essential to a good finish.

Please explain the biology that goes on when you do this. I've always been taught that excess blue spectrum in flower will promote more leaf growth.
Yeah so there's a lot that goes into this from where it started to where it is today.
In regards to plant biology, marijuana naturally shuts down leafy veg production and cuts food to leaves around week 5-6 of flower, directing all energy to flowers, which opened the door to experiment with unconventional lighting the final weeks.
Commercial growers looking to one up the next grower stumbled on this and it led to products in nutes and lights.

Designer nutes were effective but really unnecessary because the plant cuts off nutes to leaves anyways when it begins to ripen (yellowing bottom leaves during ripening stages feeding upper growth) but something like H&G Shooting Powder was designed just for that stage of life ensuring a great calyx to leaf ratio at harvest but did nothing to increase potency.
The better option was to use lights and sometimes environment working with cold nights and warm days. All genetics dependent.

In lighting we saw dual lamp reflectors for HID come out. Those were by demand so growers could run a MH lamp with HPS in the same reflector and blend the spectrum.
That was the first domino to fall in regards to the old idea of 2400 kelvin for flower and 4200 kelvin for veg becoming outdated.

Growers found that by blending the two spectras to around 3000-3200 kelvin, it could produce weight but also increase potency of a crop. And that is where CMH entered the arena not only getting those results but offering the performance using less electricity to do it. Basically 600 watts of 3100K CMH could outperform 1000 watts of HPS+MH.

Additionally, horticulture LED came to market and some lights were flashing very potent weed but lacking weight. With that, the early days of LED for cannabis was largely regarded as a supplement light that could do great for veg but lacked performance in flower with the exception of resin production. The LED grown buds were small but way more potent than those under only HPS.
HPS + MH was ideal for an increased potency but with LED, we could get that blue but use a lot less electricity getting it. Then LED got better and better to a point where it could go toe to toe with HPS and deliver weight and potency.
Where LED excelled was with the blue spectrum it could hit. That 420-460nM was the sweet spectrum to have along with the red that stretched from 700nM-1000nM range.
Some LED on the market, Cree COB for example, were a step backwards because they lacked the wide range of blue. Things kinda went back to HPS performance with that light. Only difference was that Cree could do what HPS could at half the power cost but could not increase potency. It's the lights with that wide range of blue that could increase potency so today we're seeing a lot more blue and white diodes in fixtures with the reds.

Somewhere along the line going back only a few years ago people started adding UV to LED, mostly due to COB under performing in blue and UV.
Today however, diodes are better than those Cree with Osram and Samsung leading the charge. So today not only can we get powerful LED with a strong output of blue nM, but we can also add UV to that mix and hope to grow even more potent weed than ever before. Sometimes it works great with reports of 50% potency increases and sometimes there's no difference at all. There's a lot of variables to getting it to work with the first being genetics.

And it doesn't stop there. Increasing red output early on during germination and veg is known to increase root development so that old idea of 4200 kelvin for veg is getting more and more obsolete. Sure it works as all the old ways still work well but there are advantages to mixing it up a bit and it resulting in a better harvest at the end.
For me personally, I use a lot more red than usual for veg and a lot more blue to flower than what I was doing 10-15 years ago all due to experimenting with it and seeing better performance from it.
When it comes to weight and doing things to increase it, I tend to rely on genetics and the abundance of red to far red in my lights.
I focus on the roots and along with that red and good genes, the weight will always be there at the end.
But potency is another animal and that's the creature I'm always trying to elevate and definitely prefer something like lighting to do it rather than any kind of sweetener, terp enhancer, or bloom booster fed to the roots. What I've found is that I'll always want some intense 420nM-460Nm blue at the end with no worries of poor leaf to calyx ratio and lack of density has never been an issue.
Still undecided on UV, mostly the delivery of it, but if something like lighting can increase potency I'm usually one of the first in line to give it a shot so I continue on with my UV experiments
 
Yeah so there's a lot that goes into this from where it started to where it is today.
In regards to plant biology, marijuana naturally shuts down leafy veg production and cuts food to leaves around week 5-6 of flower, directing all energy to flowers, which opened the door to experiment with unconventional lighting the final weeks.
Commercial growers looking to one up the next grower stumbled on this and it led to products in nutes and lights.

Designer nutes were effective but really unnecessary because the plant cuts off nutes to leaves anyways when it begins to ripen (yellowing bottom leaves during ripening stages feeding upper growth) but something like H&G Shooting Powder was designed just for that stage of life ensuring a great calyx to leaf ratio at harvest but did nothing to increase potency.
The better option was to use lights and sometimes environment working with cold nights and warm days. All genetics dependent.

In lighting we saw dual lamp reflectors for HID come out. Those were by demand so growers could run a MH lamp with HPS in the same reflector and blend the spectrum.
That was the first domino to fall in regards to the old idea of 2400 kelvin for flower and 4200 kelvin for veg becoming outdated.

Growers found that by blending the two spectras to around 3000-3200 kelvin, it could produce weight but also increase potency of a crop. And that is where CMH entered the arena not only getting those results but offering the performance using less electricity to do it. Basically 600 watts of 3100K CMH could outperform 1000 watts of HPS+MH.

Additionally, horticulture LED came to market and some lights were flashing very potent weed but lacking weight. With that, the early days of LED for cannabis was largely regarded as a supplement light that could do great for veg but lacked performance in flower with the exception of resin production. The LED grown buds were small but way more potent than those under only HPS.
HPS + MH was ideal for an increased potency but with LED, we could get that blue but use a lot less electricity getting it. Then LED got better and better to a point where it could go toe to toe with HPS and deliver weight and potency.
Where LED excelled was with the blue spectrum it could hit. That 420-460nM was the sweet spectrum to have along with the red that stretched from 700nM-1000nM range.
Some LED on the market, Cree COB for example, were a step backwards because they lacked the wide range of blue. Things kinda went back to HPS performance with that light. Only difference was that Cree could do what HPS could at half the power cost but could not increase potency. It's the lights with that wide range of blue that could increase potency so today we're seeing a lot more blue and white diodes in fixtures with the reds.

Somewhere along the line going back only a few years ago people started adding UV to LED, mostly due to COB under performing in blue and UV.
Today however, diodes are better than those Cree with Osram and Samsung leading the charge. So today not only can we get powerful LED with a strong output of blue nM, but we can also add UV to that mix and hope to grow even more potent weed than ever before. Sometimes it works great with reports of 50% potency increases and sometimes there's no difference at all. There's a lot of variables to getting it to work with the first being genetics.

And it doesn't stop there. Increasing red output early on during germination and veg is known to increase root development so that old idea of 4200 kelvin for veg is getting more and more obsolete. Sure it works as all the old ways still work well but there are advantages to mixing it up a bit and it resulting in a better harvest at the end.
For me personally, I use a lot more red than usual for veg and a lot more blue to flower than what I was doing 10-15 years ago all due to experimenting with it and seeing better performance from it.
When it comes to weight and doing things to increase it, I tend to rely on genetics and the abundance of red to far red in my lights.
I focus on the roots and along with that red and good genes, the weight will always be there at the end.
But potency is another animal and that's the creature I'm always trying to elevate and definitely prefer something like lighting to do it rather than any kind of sweetener, terp enhancer, or bloom booster fed to the roots. What I've found is that I'll always want some intense 420nM-460Nm blue at the end with no worries of poor leaf to calyx ratio and lack of density has never been an issue.
Still undecided on UV, mostly the delivery of it, but if something like lighting can increase potency I'm usually one of the first in line to give it a shot so I continue on with my UV experiments
U da Man!!

Thank you for that lesson. It is greatly appreciated.

With the advances in lighting would you say that the plant uses whatever light energy it needs and ignores the rest of the wavelength meaning a "full spectrum" light would provide the necessary wavelength when it is needed or will introduction of the "wrong wavelength" produce problems?

I ask because you mentioned introducing certain wavelengths at certain times in the growth cycles. Are you saying that you increase these wavelengths or are you decreasing the others making that wavelength the dominant light source wavelength to take up?

The 2 COB boards I have work fine for what they are. A bar style setup would be ideal for me as I like doing wall to wall scrogs but it is not necessary. again, the boards are doing just fine so it's more a "want" than a "need". If anything, I was thinking of framing the boards with 4 full spec light bars to increase PPFD in those areas for more even light dispersion. Adding in the light bars would raise the wattage I'd like in the tent equivalent or better than the bar light I have in mind. The bar light(Medic Grow Smart 8) uses 720w at 100%. The COB boards I have are 275w each/550w total. Four 60w bars would add another 240w to the overall ppfd. That would bring the total tent wattage to 790w. The bar light costs $629. I already have the COB's so the 60w bars will cost around $100.
 
U da Man!!

Thank you for that lesson. It is greatly appreciated.

With the advances in lighting would you say that the plant uses whatever light energy it needs and ignores the rest of the wavelength meaning a "full spectrum" light would provide the necessary wavelength when it is needed or will introduction of the "wrong wavelength" produce problems?

I ask because you mentioned introducing certain wavelengths at certain times in the growth cycles. Are you saying that you increase these wavelengths or are you decreasing the others making that wavelength the dominant light source wavelength to take up?

The 2 COB boards I have work fine for what they are. A bar style setup would be ideal for me as I like doing wall to wall scrogs but it is not necessary. again, the boards are doing just fine so it's more a "want" than a "need". If anything, I was thinking of framing the boards with 4 full spec light bars to increase PPFD in those areas for more even light dispersion. Adding in the light bars would raise the wattage I'd like in the tent equivalent or better than the bar light I have in mind. The bar light(Medic Grow Smart 8) uses 720w at 100%. The COB boards I have are 275w each/550w total. Four 60w bars would add another 240w to the overall ppfd. That would bring the total tent wattage to 790w. The bar light costs $629. I already have the COB's so the 60w bars will cost around $100.
Increase every step of the way, thru every stage, until the final two weeks.
Cannabis is such a light hog it'll devour every usable wavelength thrown at it until it dies. Left unchecked and untrained it will even commit suicide by growing up into a light eating as much as it can until it burns itself on the lamp. Indoors we can take advantage of that and manipulate the intensity and spectrum according to stage of life to bring out desired traits triggered by light.
For example I have independent control over R, W, B with each one on a scale of 0-99. For the most part I run it balanced.
So to start I have r, w, & b all at 10. I want that red equal to blue for root development. But if I have some hybrids in the crop I know will outpace the indicas later I might do a 10,10,15 adding that extra blue to keep nodes tight.
Then progress it each week. 0 week the light is at 10% power with the 10,10,10. Next week I bump it to 15-15-15 and so on. At flip my lights are at 50% with plenty left on the table to feed the insatiable appetite for light as the plants progress which helps a little in controlling stretch and to continue pushing the plants to grow fast and produce well.
At ripening is the time where I may reduce red, reduce hours on, and use supplemental UV or blue until finish. When I pull back on the red it's not a complete cutoff. Maybe 20-30% reduction at most but keep blue and white at 99% while adding supplement. If it's a known purple strain it should show purps during this ripening stage. If not it can be brought out by cooling down the room and making it downright cold during lights off, 60*F range, while also trimming down the on time either incremental or all at once going down to 8-10 hours of lights on time and 14-16 hours dark.
 
Last edited:
Increase every step of the way, thru every stage, until the final two weeks.
Cannabis is such a light hog it'll devour every usable wavelength thrown at it until it dies. Left unchecked and trained it will even commit suicide by growing up into a light eating as much as it can until it burns itself on the lamp. Indoors we can take advantage of that and manipulate the intensity and spectrum according to stage of life to bring out desired traits triggered by light.
For example I have independent control over R, W, B with each one on a scale of 0-99. For the most part I run it balanced.
So to start I have r, w, & b all at 10. I want that red equal to blue for root development. But if I have some hybrids in the crop I know will outpace the indicas later I might do a 10,10,15 adding that extra blue to keep nodes tight.
Then progress it each week. 0 week the light is at 10% power with the 10,10,10. Next week I bump it to 15-15-15 and so on. At flip my lights are at 50% with plenty left on the table to feed the insatiable appetite for light as the plants progress which helps a little in controlling stretch and to continue pushing the plants to grow fast and produce well.
At ripening is the time where I may reduce red, reduce hours on, and use supplemental UV or blue until finish. When I pull back on the red it's not a complete cutoff. Maybe 20-30% reduction at most but keep blue and white at 99% while adding supplement. If it's a known purple strain it should show purps during this ripening stage. If not it can be brought out by cooling down the room and making it downright cold during lights off, 60*F range, while also trimming down the on time either incremental or all at once going down to 8-10 hours of lights on time and 14-16 hours dark.
I may have to go PM with you on this if you are willing. Two things I'm considering doing a revamp on. Lighting and nutrition. That you can control your spectrum like that piques my interest. Your lighting knowledge is something that I would certainly love to acquire so that I can more effectively steer the crop.

I've been feeding my tried and true formula but have been interested in carbon based nutrient programs. Moreso in flower where I think carbon plays a more significant role overall.
 
Increase every step of the way, thru every stage, until the final two weeks.
Cannabis is such a light hog it'll devour every usable wavelength thrown at it until it dies. Left unchecked and trained it will even commit suicide by growing up into a light eating as much as it can until it burns itself on the lamp. Indoors we can take advantage of that and manipulate the intensity and spectrum according to stage of life to bring out desired traits triggered by light.
For example I have independent control over R, W, B with each one on a scale of 0-99. For the most part I run it balanced.
So to start I have r, w, & b all at 10. I want that red equal to blue for root development. But if I have some hybrids in the crop I know will outpace the indicas later I might do a 10,10,15 adding that extra blue to keep nodes tight.
Then progress it each week. 0 week the light is at 10% power with the 10,10,10. Next week I bump it to 15-15-15 and so on. At flip my lights are at 50% with plenty left on the table to feed the insatiable appetite for light as the plants progress which helps a little in controlling stretch and to continue pushing the plants to grow fast and produce well.
At ripening is the time where I may reduce red, reduce hours on, and use supplemental UV or blue until finish. When I pull back on the red it's not a complete cutoff. Maybe 20-30% reduction at most but keep blue and white at 99% while adding supplement. If it's a known purple strain it should show purps during this ripening stage. If not it can be brought out by cooling down the room and making it downright cold during lights off, 60*F range, while also trimming down the on time either incremental or all at once going down to 8-10 hours of lights on time and 14-16 hours dark.
Have you ever increased the hours and reduced the intensity while ripening? I was told by an old pro that I can turn my hours of light back to 18 but to dim down to 50 - 60% the last week - 10 days to boost under performing plants / buds.....I've done it twice going 11 weeks with a few different strains. I can't compare them to anything so its hard to tell but there's doesn't seem to be any negatives doing it.....Just wondering your thoughts on it.
 
Have you ever increased the hours and reduced the intensity while ripening? I was told by an old pro that I can turn my hours of light back to 18 but to dim down to 50 - 60% the last week - 10 days to boost under performing plants / buds.....I've done it twice going 11 weeks with a few different strains. I can't compare them to anything so its hard to tell but there's doesn't seem to be any negatives doing it.....Just wondering your thoughts on it.
Only in the final 2-3 days I've done stuff like that. I've gone down to 50% blue & white, 0 red on for 72 hours straight or something similar maybe 4-5 times. No negatives but no real positives to note. A fresh foxtail or two will pop out but that was about it.
I've also done the opposite and go blackout 72 hours before harvest. That just made them a little light starved and go limp but will bring out colors. Gotta watch for mold though and keep fans blowing on colas to prevent bud rot.
I think for any lighting trick added to the ripening stage, it needs to happen for at least 2 weeks to see any benefit or negative effect other than color since a color change can happen inside of 72 hours and sometimes overnight. And burning too. A UV burn can show in a matter of hours
 
Last edited:
Only in the final 2-3 days I've done stuff like that. I've gone down to 50% blue & white, 0 red on for 72 hours straight or something similar maybe 4-5 times. No negatives but no real positives to note. A fresh foxtail or two will pop out but that was about it.
I've also done the opposite and go blackout 72 hours before harvest. That just made them a little light starved and go limp but will bring out colors. Gotta watch for mold though and keep fans blowing on colas to prevent bud rot.
I think for any lighting trick added to the ripening stage, it needs to happen for at least 2 weeks to see any benefit or negative effect other than color since a color change can happen inside of 72 hours and sometimes overnight. And burning too. A UV burn can show in a matter of hours
I had just pulled a Gelato out of my tent to wet trim then dry but a hurricane blew through here and knock out my power. I have a gen so I was able to get my grow lights on but there wasn't light for trimming. I left the plant on my work bench for 3 days just pulling off a few of the large leaves off every day as I went by her....

When I finely got to trimming and drying I swear it was stickier and darker in color than before the power went out. Im doing that to my plants now, I pull them out take 2-3 days to trim up then hang to dry. I really don't know if it did anything but it sure hasn't hurt them.....and no trimming jail......bonus...
 
Back
Top Bottom