Zen’s Continually Wicked Hot Mess

[Zen_seeker]

I’ve been working with Goodshit97 to try and get a continuous grow going. Something simple that graduates from seed/clone to sprout, pre-veg, veg and finally flower.

Only have about 6 full grows under my belt but they have been pretty good.

However I seem to get into problems due to my setup.

I have a 2-1 or 3-1 setup. Gets called both.

It’s a 4’x3’x6’ tent made into 3 zones.
Zone 1: 3’x1’x3’ (Propagation)
Zone 2: 3’x1’x3’ (Pre-Veg/On Hold)
Zone 3: 3’x3’x6’ (Main Veg/Flower)

I found this lacking in space for pre-veg and I had an abundance of space in propagation.

So I used PVC to make Zone 1 & 2 more functional.

Zone 1: 3’x2’x3’
Zone 2: 3’x4’x3’

This lets me grow out a bit more in pre-veg if problems occur in the veg/flower zone and we get behind by a week or two chasing deficiencies.

The goal is/was to have 4 cannabis plant’s always growing at some stage.

I currently fell into a 3 to 1 cycle. Either 3 are heading to flower with one starting as seed/clone or other way round.

However in pre-veg, zone 2, they are being treated like a mother. Less light, less nutes, and less water. Trying to slow things down until ready to transplant and move to zone 3.

There in lies the rub. By the time I move plants from zone 2 to zone 3 they get a deficiency. Exactly what is still unknown. But we are close to getting it dialed in.

Please don’t reply/post until I finish page two. I’m slow on this phone and it’s a battle. Just want to save...

 

[moe.red]

Please forgive the thread interruption working on tech stuff with zen and will clean up after.

 

[moe.red]

We’re going to need one done properly first I think. As an example.

The TV show was good, not true, but good.

Agreed. This one might actually have been better as a poll format rather than question type thread. It would have been easier for the user to catch the meaning of what is going on.

We have done the question thing over on the private side of the board, we could do one as a demo and make it a sticky on the top of the question board.

 

[Zen_seeker]

So this is only on iphone, correct?

All i have with internet.

 

[Zen_seeker]

View attachment B3EB5688-9785-4FE5-90AD-AFE8B5B09AE6.webp
Yes. *.webp is done and tested.

 

[Zen_seeker]

View attachment 775
Yes. *.webp is done and tested.

Hmm. After post it changed to this?

I’m beginning to thing I’m a curse.
I’ll log out now before I crash a server.

 

[Zen_seeker]

Okay one more different pic.
View attachment 0D1A6A23-161A-40B6-A430-F79F317A13C0.webp

 

[moe.red]

Snoop dog. Works. But not directly gotta open a viewer. We will look at that now that you can choose them.

I’ll work on this on a bit gotta watch mandalorian with my sweetie

 

[Zen_seeker]

Snoop dog. Works. But not directly gotta open a viewer. We will look at that now that you can choose them.

I’ll work on this on a bit gotta watch mandalorian with my sweetie

Binged last few days.

 

[Zen_seeker]

Just so this isn’t left dead I’ll update until a conclusion.

Working with Mikedin, GNick & G$ in PM the last 48 hours.

It’s believed that things went from fine to multi issued at the transplant. A few small things just added up wrong to cause Nitrogen Toxicity. When I mixed my soil the Jobes and worm castings added pushed other % up we didn’t note. I also added 15ml/20ml epsom every watering witch GNick said was to much.

We decided to try feeding Solo when her roots got to 0.5 out of 10 on the moisture meter. After 9 days I fed her last night.

Nutrients mix:
6ml/3.5L Grow 2-2-4
7ml/3.5L. Karma 0.1-0.1-0.5
Total used: 11L
Runoff: 1.5L after 12Hrs. PH 6.51

Solo after feeding:


Currently the twins are set for water only tonight or tomorrow. I’ll update them separately since we are now experimenting.

 

[Zen_seeker]

Well things changed again. GNick was the first to reply last night so we are now feeding all the clones the same. Just a day or two apart.

Guess that’s all in for growing.

Here are the twins after 10L light nutrients.


Guess we’ll see in a week...

 

[Moshmen]

I’m sure those guys got u! Just curious though What about light has anyone mentioned light ?

 

[Zen_seeker]

The light has been lowered and raised a few times over the last month.

Currently they are as follows;

Solo:
440w LED board set to 120-180 LUX
18”+ above canopy

Twins:
300w LED Photontek set to 240-270 LUX
16”+ above canopy

IIRC

 

[Zen_seeker]

Currently watching and waiting.
Nitrogen toxicity and over watering are the current theory.

Solo:


Twins:


Curl is almost gone. Colour seems to be coming back but fades a bit after each feeding. As long as it keeps improving I’ll keep trying.

 

[Zen_seeker]

Been bummed out and can’t shake it. Plants are about two months behind schedule. Not that it matters, as long as I don’t run out.

By the time they’re healthy I won’t have room for stretch.

 

[moe.red]

Been bummed out and can’t shake it. Plants are about two months behind schedule. Not that it matters, as long as I don’t run out.

By the time they’re healthy I won’t have room for stretch.

I know that feeling. I’ve had to take clones and start over due to a bad start before.

I’m not seeing n tox in those last pics. Is that because you are past that or is that the active diagnosis of those pics?

 

[Zen_seeker]

I’m not seeing n tox in those last pics. Is that because you are past that or is that the active diagnosis of those pics?

It was earlier. I don’t have the pic but I can see if I can grab it from my journal.
Here is a later pic from April 7th.

View attachment 5506D475-A5FE-4868-AC08-4D492B65475E.webp

View attachment 2463CD96-12BA-4A08-A334-FA9BA3F56FDD.webp

Glad you added webp.

Not seeing the pics again?

 

[Zen_seeker]

Other than the slight difference in NPK & $
These are both Botanicare micro nutrients.

Karma which is 0.1-0.1-0.5 @ $35

Pure Blend Tea is 0.5-0.5-1 @ $17

Both say they are for veg/transition/bloom.

Any reason I should stick with the karma over the tea? It’s part of what I use now.

Cutting the tea in half is 0.25-0.25-0.5 so wouldn’t that be pretty much the same or am I making this to simple?

I’m trying to understand how this NPK works and I’ve seen charts but nothing with an index or legend that gives me a number to use. No x/y that says on week 5 NPK = 2-4-6

Is (A)4-4-4 = (B) 4-4-4 ?

I understand it would just be a guide like the charts some nutrients have on the back. (Everyone says to only use half of that, except the stores.)

I’d still need to learn what to do to fix things. Just frustrated.

 

[Rootsruler]

I’d still need to learn what to do to fix things. Just frustrated.

It takes time to understand how they work and when to give what but keep at it. You'll understand as long as you continue.

I've just started to look at how to concoct my own nutes and how to get the ratios I want at the time the plant needs them.

 

[Moshmen]

Other than the slight difference in NPK & $
These are both Botanicare micro nutrients.

Karma which is 0.1-0.1-0.5 @ $35

Pure Blend Tea is 0.5-0.5-1 @ $17

Both say they are for veg/transition/bloom.

Any reason I should stick with the karma over the tea? It’s part of what I use now.

Cutting the tea in half is 0.25-0.25-0.5 so wouldn’t that be pretty much the same or am I making this to simple?

I’m trying to understand how this NPK works and I’ve seen charts but nothing with an index or legend that gives me a number to use. No x/y that says on week 5 NPK = 2-4-6

Is (A)4-4-4 = (B) 4-4-4 ?

I understand it would just be a guide like the charts some nutrients have on the back. (Everyone says to only use half of that, except the stores.)

I’d still need to learn what to do to fix things. Just frustrated.

Hang in there once ya f get it it’s so satisfying! You got this - remember moes a master ! You plants may not be perfect but look good brother !

 

[smoke]

It would be nice to push a button and have the solution printed out before us but it really is a educated guess and the guessing does get easier with time. Or at least it should lol

 

[Zen_seeker]

So there is no legend or index.

Just guides that say more or less is better at different stages/weeks, depending on strain, in a broad generalization?

(A) 4-4-4 is not the same as (B) 4-4-4 because they are made with slightly different amounts or ingredients, which may or may not be okay or equal?

Karma 0.1-0.1-0.5 & Pure Blend Tea 0.5-0.5-1.0 might well be interchangeable, at a half dose, but there is no way to know that just going by the NPK?

If I runout of Jobes 4-4-4 I would assume buying another 4-4-4 close by would be fine as a direct replacement no matter who’s it is, otherwise what’s the point of the NPK numbers?

I get there is an art to it, like most things, but it’s science too.

A great chief doesn’t need to be a chemist but it helps.

If a plant is known to do well when 2-3-4 is added then adding 2-0-0 & 0-3-4 in equal amounts is the same is it not? Regardless how the NPK is achieved that’s the science isn’t it?

Isn’t the art or experience learning to making the fine changes over time or learning that one type of N isn’t as good as another’s?

I’m just asking if my understanding of the science is right so I can make better choices and spend my money wisely.

 

[Zen_seeker]

Still looking for answers but maybe I can help others with what I find.

Here’s a tool that might help some;

Water Soluble Fertilizer Calculator

Water Soluble Fertilizer Calculator

The water soluble fertilizer calculator helps you make a water soluble fertilizer solution to achieve a desired ppm of an element.

www.omnicalculator.com

Moe I didn’t see a place for tools like this, or if they are welcome. I have a few like Dr Cannabis Cannabis Leaf Issues.

 

[steamroller]

Still looking for answers but maybe I can help others with what I find.

Here’s a tool that might help some;

Water Soluble Fertilizer Calculator

Water Soluble Fertilizer Calculator

The water soluble fertilizer calculator helps you make a water soluble fertilizer solution to achieve a desired ppm of an element.

www.omnicalculator.com

Moe I didn’t see a place for tools like this, or if they are welcome. I have a few like Dr Cannabis Cannabis Leaf Issues.

Nice link.
We have a charts section where you can post this for sure.

Charts, setpoints, data, lookup

Useful information links

budbuilders.org

I'll toss it in there if you don't.
Thanks.
I would love to be able to answer your questions but fear my common sense approach does not hit the nail on the head.
I'm listening for answers also.

 

[Zen_seeker]

This place legit?

Fertilizer - Selecting The Right NPK Ratio

Fertilizer is important for plants, but most recommendations for NPK ratios are wrong. Learn to understand fertilizers so you can select the right one.

www.gardenfundamentals.com

 

[moe.red]

Thanks for the link and putting it in the charts area steam.

So I sense the frustration zen. I get it.

I saw your webp and confirm n tox early on. You learned something there. Takes time to really internalize this stuff but school of hard knocks is still how most of us work up the learning curve.

I also get your questions about the nutes specifically. I don’t like to answer questions about areas I have only read about. That would make me Zill. I can try to help you with chemistry in general and understanding the molecules you are dealing with and where they came from. But not as it pertains to a soil grow.

I’m changing that now. I’m about to start my first soil grow ever. Done every form of hydro and coco, never soil.

Maybe we can kinda learn this together. I’ll post up a thread and hope to learn answers to the questions you are asking. Gonna start this weekend.

 

[Zen_seeker]

That’s fantastic. I look forward to it.

 

[dragonsflamegenetics]

A few things to consider as a blanket statement in general not sure if it helps or this is the herb making me ramble on...-

When in soil or coco even, - there's two basic schools of nutrition. The more common approach with bottled nutes/ salts / premade formulas. I would consider most nute brands to fall under this category. My personal favorite for bottles of this type is Nectar of the Gods. These are feeding the plants more directly - if something is out of balance in the system, you can visually see pretty quickly.

The other approach is the living soil approach. In this approach you are depending on the soil life to take care of the plant, and you are working to feed the biosphere, and bacteria / fungal life. This is typically more with dry amendments, earth worming castings/ compost tea / those types of methods.

so one product being 4-4-4 and another also being 4-4-4....doesn't necessarily mean the effects on the plant will be the same. One could be a slow release salt, a fast breakdown, etc etc.

Also, I noticed you are in sunshine mix? So one thing to keep in mind with sunshine mix is that it has 0 nutrition in it, its just empty peat. So with that, you really are doing soilless, which means you are responsible for all feeding. In addition, peat holds water, and allows to much oxygen to be depleted, and has a tendency to lock up nutrients, and go too acidic.

I am not the biggest fan personally of straight sunshine mix, unless you are treating it like hydro and using heavy well formulated full nutrition type nutrients for those reasons. If you want something simpler to learn in, going to something like down to earth pro-organic soil and top dressing with bio live a few times, you probably will have considerably happier results. Or, going to a full complete nutrient line in the sunshine mix. There's a million of em out there these days.

 

[Zen_seeker]

A few things to consider as a blanket statement in general not sure if it helps or this is the herb making me ramble on...-

When in soil or coco even, - there's two basic schools of nutrition. The more common approach with bottled nutes/ salts / premade formulas. I would consider most nute brands to fall under this category. My personal favorite for bottles of this type is Nectar of the Gods. These are feeding the plants more directly - if something is out of balance in the system, you can visually see pretty quickly.

The other approach is the living soil approach. In this approach you are depending on the soil life to take care of the plant, and you are working to feed the biosphere, and bacteria / fungal life. This is typically more with dry amendments, earth worming castings/ compost tea / those types of methods.

so one product being 4-4-4 and another also being 4-4-4....doesn't necessarily mean the effects on the plant will be the same. One could be a slow release salt, a fast breakdown, etc etc.

Also, I noticed you are in sunshine mix? So one thing to keep in mind with sunshine mix is that it has 0 nutrition in it, its just empty peat. So with that, you really are doing soilless, which means you are responsible for all feeding. In addition, peat holds water, and allows to much oxygen to be depleted, and has a tendency to lock up nutrients, and go too acidic.

I am not the biggest fan personally of straight sunshine mix, unless you are treating it like hydro and using heavy well formulated full nutrition type nutrients for those reasons. If you want something simpler to learn in, going to something like down to earth pro-organic soil and top dressing with bio live a few times, you probably will have considerably happier results. Or, going to a full complete nutrient line in the sunshine mix. There's a million of em out there these days.

Thank you. You confirmed a choice and gave me some things to review and think about.

 

[dragonsflamegenetics]

Thank you. You confirmed a choice and gave me some things to review and think about.

cheers! glad my ramblings helped. Feel free to poke the dragon for more ramblings about all sorts of random topics lol

 

[Zen_seeker]

Clones Veg Day 61:

I fed all yesterday and Solo is finally coming around. Twins are doing really good. Colour on all is stronger but I don’t think it’s over yet.

I also turned Solo’s light dimmer all the way down from 180 LUX to 80 LUX.

Still doing same feeding, still the same amounts with 2L extra for Solo to help clean her a bit. Might have helped.

Twins:


Solo:


These are from 7pm lights on. Solo looks even better now.

GNick & Mikedin are still watching and getting daily pics.

Feeding mix:
6ml/3.5L Grow 2-2-4
7ml/3.5L Karma 0.1-0.1-0.5

Solo had 14L with 2L+ runoff.
Twins had 11L with 1L runoff.

 

[Zen_seeker]

Clones Veg Day 64:

Clones are much healthier. GNick thinks they are well enough again. Just confirming this and a few details before I muck with them.

Twins:


Solo:


Vid:

View attachment trim.3D9CA341-EE28-4F8A-97B5-358B7922DE94.MOV

No room for all three anymore. I was going to put Solo outside but if she’s healthy now I’ll keep her in and put one of the twins out. Solo is about 6” shorter now.

They all get a haircut this weekend. Need it bad. Way to thick in the middle.

 

[moe.red]

Looking good.

 

[steamroller]

Yea Nick brought you back good.
They look healthy for sure.

 

[Zen_seeker]

Yea Nick brought you back good.
They look healthy for sure.

Honestly it was the same advice as Goodshit97. With the addition of no more Epsom and leave them alone. All three of them helped rule things out and tunnel down to the root issues, so to speak.

It just took weeks... think Goodshit97 said that happened to him before as well.

 

[MiGrampa]

Is it possible you're watering too little, but too often? I feel like 3-4 liters in a 7 gal is not enough to truly saturate... I feel like it should be closer to 7-8 liters if the soil is dry enough? I could be wrong...

Actually, I think @TSD hit the jackpot with her answer ... Soak em good then let them dry out. I could be mistaken about what the moisture meter was reading but from what I see at "24 hrs before watering" would be 48 hrs before watering for me. I don't use the same moisture meter, so that might make a difference.

I was hoping others would choose from the options/suggest I had made.

Would posting each one separately work better?

I didn't read every post .. but what were those suggestions? I guess that means posting each one might work better for some of us lol.

Edit: I also just realized I just responded to an old message ... I'm old, its late. You know when your old ... 9pm becomes the new midnight.

 

[Observer]

I think I know what's wrong - this is not hydro.

Sorry, I jest, but it seems like for the crowdsourcing thing to work, we are gonna need more soil growers here. We are kinda hydro heavy at the moment.

Lol

 

[TomH]

@Zen_seeker
Sorry to bring up a 1.5 year old thread, but I just bought a bale of Sunshine Mix #4 with mycos.

Then decided to see if someone else has used it. I’m a bit concerned.

Now I’m wondering, did I waste those dollars? Was this an issue with the soil?

The bag seems to indicate that the soil has about 14 days of nutrients in it. Should it just be used with plain water for the first week or two and slowly increase nutrients at that point?

Thank you for any additional feedback you may have about this soil source.

 

[Zen_seeker]

@Zen_seeker
Sorry to bring up a 1.5 year old thread, but I just bought a bale of Sunshine Mix #4 with mycos.

Then decided to see if someone else has used it. I’m a bit concerned.

I’ve used it since I started a few years ago. I don’t think mine has mycos as I bought a few bales on sale when I started. I have two ProMix unopened yet as Sunshine has disappeared in my area.

Aqua has used Sunshine #4 as well I found out.

Now I’m wondering, did I waste those dollars? Was this an issue with the soil?

What issue? I’ve never had a soil problem. No bugs either. A few grows including my current are all in 1 gallon soft pots. 3 gallon are perfect but I do 1 gallon once in a while because I’m an idiot that tries to save space and soil.

The bag seems to indicate that the soil has about 14 days of nutrients in it. Should it just be used with plain water for the first week or two and slowly increase nutrients at that point?

I don’t feed until the plant is established. I watch for any colour changes on the lowers. I use clear cups inside red cups so I can see roots and know when to up pot and feed regularly.

Thank you for any additional feedback you may have about this soil source.

No worries. Feel free to ask anything you want.

Soils buffered and has Si so I’ll use it until it’s gone. Switching to ProMix worries me though.