What is going on with this girl?

[SkinnieP]

Hey guys, I'm a brand new grower starting in DWC. I was on the growweedeasy forum and was referred here because there are some experts on DWC. I'll go into my setup and background info and then hoping someone can tell me what I'm doing wrong. Any and all insight is appreciated, I'm very new and have done tons of research... but sometimes turning to the people with experience is a better option.

Age of plant: 18 days
Setup: 5 gallon DWC with top feed (Vivosun brand on Amazon)
Growing medium: Hydroton
Light intensity: Around 200-250 PPFD
PH: 5.8 - 6.2 (RO Water)
PPM: I've made a few res changes, started off at around 750 PPM which I know now was way too much for these little girls. Now I've been running the nutrient solution at about 250 PPM.
Water Temp: Around 68-70 degrees
Humidity: Fluctuates between 45-70%
Room Temperature (using a 2x2x6 grow tent): between 69 degrees at night to a high of 75 degrees during the day
Additional info on this plant: It's been a runt pretty much since it sprouted. I've had to do a couple res changes because the roots are turning brown and getting slimy. The new root growth is white and looks nice, but the older roots are a light brown. I've done a couple peroxide dunks for 10-20 minutes at a time, I've cleaned out the resevoir and air stones with peroxide and bleach, and I've soaked the hydroton in a peroxide solution as well. I'm not sure why this keeps happening, my PH stays in a decent range, my water temps are decent, and I'm using Hydroguard.

So here's what she looks like. So sad and droopy. Also doesn't seem to be a very healthy color of green. Anyone know what is going on here? Again, any and all insight is sincerely appreciated. Cheers <3

 

[SSgrower]

@Moe.Red can help best with this, sounds like you have taken all the right steps with Hydrroguard, changing res, ect. I am a coco grower so a RDWC guy will try this thread for solving. Welcome to Budbuilders

 

[GoodShit97]

Welcome to Bud Builders!! You came to the right place that's for sure!
@Moe.Red
@SweetLeafGrow
@GrumpAzz
They're all run RDWC right now.
@smoke too almost forgot

 

[GrumpAzz]

Ok so.. I only have 2 runs under my belt so take what I say with a grain of salt. It looks to me like the humidity in the immediate vicinity around the plant is too high. Where is the probe that's giving you your reading? In my opinion, it should be within inches of your plant. This allows it to give you a much more accurate interpretation of what your plant is breathing. 70% is pretty high, if you ask me.

I'm not the best at diagnosis, yet. Still inexperienced in that department. I've luckily had no issues yet (knock on wood). But, I started here and these guys really got me sorted out. Hopefully someone a bit more knowledgeable can chime in soon.

How's the airflow in the tent? Exhaust fan? Auxiliary fans, oscillating or stationary?

 

[SkinnieP]

@Moe.Red can help best with this, sounds like you have taken all the right steps with Hydrroguard, changing res, ect. I am a coco grower so a RDWC guy will try this thread for solving. Welcome to Budbuilders

Thanks for the reply SSgrower!

 

[SkinnieP]

Welcome to Bud Builders!! You came to the right place that's for sure!
@Moe.Red
@SweetLeafGrow
@GrumpAzz
They're all run RDWC right now.
@smoke too almost forgot

Thanks my man.

 

[SkinnieP]

Ok so.. I only have 2 runs under my belt so take what I say with a grain of salt. It looks to me like the humidity in the immediate vicinity around the plant is too high. Where is the probe that's giving you your reading? In my opinion, it should be within inches of your plant. This allows it to give you a much more accurate interpretation of what your plant is breathing. 70% is pretty high, if you ask me.

I'm not the best at diagnosis, yet. Still inexperienced in that department. I've luckily had no issues yet (knock on wood). But, I started here and these guys really got me sorted out. Hopefully someone a bit more knowledgeable can chime in soon.

How's the airflow in the tent? Exhaust fan? Auxiliary fans, oscillating or stationary?

Thanks for the input. I appreciate it! That's what I thought COULD be the issue at first, but I've really balanced out my VPD lately. It fluctuates between .8 and 1.1, which from what I've read seems to be pretty ideal? BUT, I'm brand new and only know what I see on youtube videos and read online... so not much.

Airflow is good, I have an inline fan w/ exhaust duct and one oscillating fan mounted to the tent, it sits at the level of the DWC bucket, or basically right at the plants at this stage of their growth.

 

[SkinnieP]

Thanks for the input. I appreciate it! That's what I thought COULD be the issue at first, but I've really balanced out my VPD lately. It fluctuates between .8 and 1.1, which from what I've read seems to be pretty ideal? BUT, I'm brand new and only know what I see on youtube videos and read online... so not much.

Airflow is good, I have an inline fan w/ exhaust duct and one oscillating fan mounted to the tent, it sits at the level of the DWC bucket, or basically right at the plants at this stage of their growth.

That's what I thought could be the issue at first because it almost looks like the plant is overwatered. At first glance from a newbie anyway

 

[moe.red]

Welcome Skinny.

First thing, you need to pick a team, sterile or hydroguard. They are conflicting, and if using caustics at the same time, the chemicals will always win over the bennies.

If you want to run a live res, you start with a nice sterile system using bleach or H2O2 in the system to clean it, then do a full res change to get rid of it, then add the bennies. If I am reading you right, it sounds like you need to stick with sterile this grow.

Bennies take time to establish a colony. I like to start it up from seedling stage to give it plenty of time to grow and colonize all the surfaces to prevent the bad stuff from getting a foothold.

If dosing with H2O2, you will need to make that a steady part of the plant's regimen. Like at least weekly.

Hydroton looks really wet. Looks like maybe you are top watering. That's OK, but I would not want to do that constantly. Once established I only top water about once a week. If the hydroton stays wet 24x7 you end up with a micro climate of high RH right at the leaves, and it makes it hard for the plant to breathe. Gentle air flow can help.

What nute line are you running, and how are you getting to the 250PPM? Ratios?

What you need to focus on is getting the plant "switched on" and in this setup you should see significant root growth daily. That's what makes hydro awesome - big roots = big fruits. Your roots are not enough to support the plant into the next stage.

What you want to encourage is water moving up the roots and out the leaves.

Also, if you are not already you need an airstone in the plant site to promote as much O2 in the root zone as you can manage.

 

[SkinnieP]

Welcome Skinny.

First thing, you need to pick a team, sterile or hydroguard. They are conflicting, and if using caustics at the same time, the chemicals will always win over the bennies.

If you want to run a live res, you start with a nice sterile system using bleach or H2O2 in the system to clean it, then do a full res change to get rid of it, then add the bennies. If I am reading you right, it sounds like you need to stick with sterile this grow.

Bennies take time to establish a colony. I like to start it up from seedling stage to give it plenty of time to grow and colonize all the surfaces to prevent the bad stuff from getting a foothold.

If dosing with H2O2, you will need to make that a steady part of the plant's regimen. Like at least weekly.

Hydroton looks really wet. Looks like maybe you are top watering. That's OK, but I would not want to do that constantly. Once established I only top water about once a week. If the hydroton stays wet 24x7 you end up with a micro climate of high RH right at the leaves, and it makes it hard for the plant to breathe. Gentle air flow can help.

What nute line are you running, and how are you getting to the 250PPM? Ratios?

What you need to focus on is getting the plant "switched on" and in this setup you should see significant root growth daily. That's what makes hydro awesome - big roots = big fruits. Your roots are not enough to support the plant into the next stage.

What you want to encourage is water moving up the roots and out the leaves.

Also, if you are not already you need an airstone in the plant site to promote as much O2 in the root zone as you can manage.

Hey Moe, really appreciate the insight. I've read about Sterile and Live DWC systems, and yes I agree I should stick with sterile this run. If you don't mind, in the future I'd love to learn more about running a live system.
I do not dose with H202, because I've read if you dose with H202 AND use Hydroguard, it basically makes the Hydroguard useless. What do you think about this?

I'm running almost exclusively GH hydro for the nute line. I changed out the strong nute solution yesterday and replaced it with this:
Two gallons RO water, starting PPM 18.
GH Armor SI: 1ml (I plan on switching to Power SI for the more immediate silicon availability)
GH Cal Mag: 6ml
GH Micro: 4ml
GH Gro: 4.5ml
GH Bloom: 2ml
GH Diamond Nectar: 8ml
PlantFoods brand Wetting Agent (Yucca Wet): 4ml
GH Rapid Start: 2ml
Botanicare Hydrogaurd: 4ml
Final ppm: 283
Adjusted PH to 5.8

As for the top feeding, yes I am doing this, but only because it's how the DWC I bought came. I got the Vivosun 5 gallon dwc system off of Amazon, and it comes with a smaller airstone, pump, and the top feeding system. On this topic, I've debated on taking out the topfeed system but wasn't sure if now was a good time... Was going to wait until I had a little more roots in the water. I actually got a bigger pump with bigger airstones and plan on replacing the top feed system eventually. Do you think now is a good time?

Thank you for sharing your experience and knowledge on the subject, it's truly appreciated.

 

[SkinnieP]

Welcome Skinny.

First thing, you need to pick a team, sterile or hydroguard. They are conflicting, and if using caustics at the same time, the chemicals will always win over the bennies.

Hey again, I'm sorry I might have mis-read your message. So you're saying because I should go with a sterile system, I should use H202 instead of Hydroguard?
Thanks again.

 

[Zen_seeker]

Welcome to BB @SkinnieP

I’m a soil grower but the best hydro people are here and have great advice.

We shoot the shit at Cannagranny Corner. Come on over when you get a minute.

 

[smoke]

@SkinnieP wecome

Remember, less is more

 

[moe.red]

Hey Moe, really appreciate the insight. I've read about Sterile and Live DWC systems, and yes I agree I should stick with sterile this run. If you don't mind, in the future I'd love to learn more about running a live system.
I do not dose with H202, because I've read if you dose with H202 AND use Hydroguard, it basically makes the Hydroguard useless. What do you think about this?

I'm running almost exclusively GH hydro for the nute line. I changed out the strong nute solution yesterday and replaced it with this:
Two gallons RO water, starting PPM 18.
GH Armor SI: 1ml (I plan on switching to Power SI for the more immediate silicon availability)
GH Cal Mag: 6ml
GH Micro: 4ml
GH Gro: 4.5ml
GH Bloom: 2ml
GH Diamond Nectar: 8ml
PlantFoods brand Wetting Agent (Yucca Wet): 4ml
GH Rapid Start: 2ml
Botanicare Hydrogaurd: 4ml
Final ppm: 283
Adjusted PH to 5.8

As for the top feeding, yes I am doing this, but only because it's how the DWC I bought came. I got the Vivosun 5 gallon dwc system off of Amazon, and it comes with a smaller airstone, pump, and the top feeding system. On this topic, I've debated on taking out the topfeed system but wasn't sure if now was a good time... Was going to wait until I had a little more roots in the water. I actually got a bigger pump with bigger airstones and plan on replacing the top feed system eventually. Do you think now is a good time?

Thank you for sharing your experience and knowledge on the subject, it's truly appreciated.

Correct, makes no sense to use both hydroguard and a caustic like H2O2.

If you are just getting used to things, you might want to pick these up

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01N49KQLQ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&th=1

That way you can see how much you are actually putting into the system reguardless of peroxide concentration in the bottle and the amount of water in your system. 10PPM is a good maint level, 25PPM if you have an issue to get rid of. Too much can burn roots and should be avoided.

It burns off fast, so plan on once a week to keep all the microbes at bay.

I'd leave these 4 out

GH Diamond Nectar: 8ml
PlantFoods brand Wetting Agent (Yucca Wet): 4ml
GH Rapid Start: 2ml
Botanicare Hydrogaurd: 4ml

I would not hesitate to add proper air right now. As for the other stuff, that's up to you when you make the change.

 

[moe.red]

Hey again, I'm sorry I might have mis-read your message. So you're saying because I should go with a sterile system, I should use H202 instead of Hydroguard?
Thanks again.

Correct. On the next grow, we can plan for and implement a live res if that is your choice. That's what I typically do. I also like fungi down there like what you get in Orca or Great White. If you use them, you can skip the hydroguard. Hydroguard has 1 form of bacteria. Great white has many as well as helper fungi. It really helps with root health.

 

[steamroller]

Welcome SkinnieP.
You're in good hands so I will just try to learn with you.
Soil guy/ slacker myself.

 

[SkinnieP]

I'd leave these 4 out

GH Diamond Nectar: 8ml
PlantFoods brand Wetting Agent (Yucca Wet): 4ml
GH Rapid Start: 2ml
Botanicare Hydrogaurd: 4ml

I would not hesitate to add proper air right now. As for the other stuff, that's up to you when you make the change.

Cool man I'll check that out. appreciate the link.
Why would you take those 4 nutes out of the solution? Or the first 3 nutes, rather. Is it too early or do you just think they aren't useful?

I took out the top feed and put in the new air stones, there are now way more bubbles so I think I'll toss the top feed tubes.

 

[SkinnieP]

Welcome SkinnieP.
You're in good hands so I will just try to learn with you.
Soil guy/ slacker myself.

Hey steamroller. Awesome. I've actually got two autos growing in living soil, but they're on day 5 so I haven't run into any problems yet

 

[steamroller]

Hey steamroller. Awesome. I've actually got two autos growing in living soil, but they're on day 5 so I haven't run into any problems yet

If they are up out of soil make sure you have them in their forever home NOW.
My experience with autos agrees with much writing saying they go in finish pot right away.
3 gallon minimum would be my suggestion.
I transplanted just 2 weeks after sprouting and when done the roots did not expand as much as normal phot plants would.
You give up control and ability to correct with autos. They keep going whether you pull the reins back or not.

 

[moe.red]

Cool man I'll check that out. appreciate the link.
Why would you take those 4 nutes out of the solution? Or the first 3 nutes, rather. Is it too early or do you just think they aren't useful?

I took out the top feed and put in the new air stones, there are now way more bubbles so I think I'll toss the top feed tubes.

GH Diamond Nectar: 8ml
PlantFoods brand Wetting Agent (Yucca Wet): 4ml
GH Rapid Start: 2ml
Botanicare Hydrogaurd: 4ml

Short answer is the one Smoke already gave - less is more. Especially when starting. Simplify for success, and don't get sucked in by marketing.

Diamond Nectar is hummic acid. If you are going to run one of these products, you want Fulvic in hydro. But I'm not saying go buy another bottle, I'm saying simplify and make a good grow with the basics as step 1.

Wetting agent - last thing you need in hydro is a surfactant. You are literally drenched in water, you can't get any wetter. What are the drawbacks or side effects? One less bottle to complicate things IMO.

Rapid start - it is meant to be used on it's own for seedlings, cuttings, etc. 100% of what comes in that bottle is already in the GH 3 part which is the core of the regimen.

Hydroguard - as discussed, any life you pour out of a bottle and into a res with H2O2 is going to die. Save your money and use it on a live res grow.

 

[smoke]

To add to what moe said above. Personally ive grown nothing but RDWC for the last dozen years using only GH 3 part and calmag, nothing more

 

[SkinnieP]

So a little update, granted I didn't give it very long... But changed the res with VERY low ppm. Was around 100 ppm w 2 gallons of RO water. This girl just continued to get more and more sad. Looked at the roots, they were a dark brown. I did a couple H202 treatments, changed the rez multiple times and sanitized all equipment multiple times, made sure light wasn't getting through the hydroton, and watched her continue to wither away.

Truthfully I just got tired of messing with it, and tossed her yesterday. She was looking worse and worse by the hour! Her tent partner, a 14-day old was 3x her size lol. Just going to focus my time and energy on the healthy one I guess.

Thanks everyone for their input, it will most certainly help going forward.

 

[SSgrower]

Time will show you the way grasshopper, I start my coco grows trying for 11 plants, got 7 this run. Relax, 3 part GH, easy does it. Moe & the crew will help ya. I use Canna coco nutes, but over time I have learned to" soup it up"! going slowly wins the race to "Harvest" our goal. Cheers an Wake an Bake

 

[smoke]

Cannabis needs calmag

Add 180 PPM ofcalmag to your RO water then add your nutrients to that

 

[moe.red]

So a little update, granted I didn't give it very long... But changed the res with VERY low ppm. Was around 100 ppm w 2 gallons of RO water. This girl just continued to get more and more sad. Looked at the roots, they were a dark brown. I did a couple H202 treatments, changed the rez multiple times and sanitized all equipment multiple times, made sure light wasn't getting through the hydroton, and watched her continue to wither away.

Truthfully I just got tired of messing with it, and tossed her yesterday. She was looking worse and worse by the hour! Her tent partner, a 14-day old was 3x her size lol. Just going to focus my time and energy on the healthy one I guess.

Thanks everyone for their input, it will most certainly help going forward.

Sad, but it happens.

IMO, this is the problem



That's not enough root structure to power growth.



That is a plant that is actually a little younger than yours. Can you spot the difference lol

What we are growing for in early plants is roots roots roots. Yours looks like perhaps it came from seed, you have a single tap root, and that's it. We can talk about ways to improve on that on your next start.

You got the bad one out of the way and learned a lot. Don't sweat it, you will get there.

 

[TomH]

Welcome, my friend, to the show that never ends!

I’m big time impressed that another forum referred you here, but I certainly know why. The brains here are really amazing. You’re in great hands.

Enjoy and good luck on your grow!

 

[MDK]

Cannabis needs calmag

Add 180 PPM ofcalmag to your RO water then add your nutrients to that

This revelation I feel like helped me a ton...I use distilled water and it had nothing in it...0ppm water....so on days where I don't feed but just water I started adding calmag and it helped a lot...don't get the mag deficiency nearly as bad (I'm in soil)

Tell ya what tho, our hydro growers here are some true bad asses so just be willing to ask questions, take the critique, and soak up the knowledge. Ask it 5 different ways if it isn't making sense and eventually you will be sailing the same waters.

 

[steamroller]

Welcome, my friend, to the show that never ends!

I’m big time impressed that another forum referred you here, but I certainly know why. The brains here are really amazing. You’re in great hands.

Enjoy and good luck on your grow!

We have a friend on GWE.
He has plugged us a few times.
Thanks friend.

 

[SkinnieP]

Sad, but it happens.

IMO, this is the problem

View attachment 60697

That's not enough root structure to power growth.

View attachment 60698

That is a plant that is actually a little younger than yours. Can you spot the difference lol

What we are growing for in early plants is roots roots roots. Yours looks like perhaps it came from seed, you have a single tap root, and that's it. We can talk about ways to improve on that on your next start.

You got the bad one out of the way and learned a lot. Don't sweat it, you will get there.

Yes sir! Exactly right. I’ll be growing everything from seed because I don’t think I want to keep a mother plant around. But yeah man I have no idea why the roots on this one never took off. The one I kept was younger and the roots are very robust and healthy!

Just a hypothesis, but I think I could have burned this one early on with too many nutes, and it stunted growth and she just never recovered.

I know now that slow and steady wins the race

Thanks for the feedback and teachings. Might have to start calling you Mr. Miagi for dwc

 

[SkinnieP]

Welcome, my friend, to the show that never ends!

I’m big time impressed that another forum referred you here, but I certainly know why. The brains here are really amazing. You’re in great hands.

Enjoy and good luck on your grow!

Thanks man. The science part of this is so interesting and fun. Cheers