One_bell here, newbie and need advice on RDWC and auto's for 2nd run

[Skinnypuppy80]

Nice driver, I didn't even look into the VJ product, just thought maybe the beneficial bacteria would do it, guess it needs a specific Bacillus like hydroguard to actually kill it? Fight it?

So I wanna say VJ and hydroguard are just preventive measures for root rot and such? And h2o2 is the cure for established rot.
I very well could b wrong, which seems to be the trend lol

 

[Driver77]

Nice driver, I didn't even look into the VJ product, just thought maybe the beneficial bacteria would do it, guess it needs a specific Bacillus like hydroguard to actually kill it? Fight it?

didn't want to kill off any current BB alive in the system with the peroxide just yet but probably the best route.

We'll soon find out....got some help from AI so hopefully we're on the right track. Fingers crossed!

 

[Observer]

So I wanna say VJ and hydroguard are just preventive measures for root rot and such? And h2o2 is the cure for established rot.
I very well could b wrong, which seems to be the trend lol

Going through it now, but yea see seems the species that hydroguard is, does combat root rot, while voodoo juice species do not.

Based on their composition and how they're marketed:
The main difference between Hydroguard and Voodoo Juice lies in the specific types and blends of beneficial microbes they contain and their primary intended functions.

• Hydroguard: Contains primarily one specific beneficial bacterium, Bacillus amyloliquefaciens. It is mainly marketed for preventing and combating root rot by colonizing the root zone and outcompeting or suppressing harmful pathogens.

• Voodoo Juice: Contains a blend of multiple different strains of beneficial Bacillus bacteria (and potentially Paenibacillus).3 It is marketed more broadly as a root mass expander and stimulator, focusing on promoting explosive root growth, increasing root density and branching, and improving overall nutrient and water uptake.4 Its blend of bacteria is intended to work synergistically to enhance root development and function.5

In summary:

• Hydroguard = Focused on Root Rot Prevention with primarily one key beneficial bacterium.
• Voodoo Juice = Focused on Root Mass Expansion and Stimulation with a more diverse blend of beneficial bacteria.

Neither product contains mycorrhizal fungi.

 

[GrumpAzz]

Late to the party, but I've had excellent results with Orca. It has the same strain the Hydrogaurd contains, plus like 20 or more other strains of beneficial fungi and bacteria.

I use Orca from germination through to harvest by initially inoculating some filter media (very porous stonelike tubes) in a highly concentrated mix of Orca + RO. After about a week, I'll add a brick to each plantsite while dosing 15ml every res change.

 

[One_Bell]

Late to the party, but I've had excellent results with Orca. It has the same strain the Hydrogaurd contains, plus like 20 or more other strains of beneficial fungi and bacteria.

I use Orca from germination through to harvest by initially inoculating some filter media (very porous stonelike tubes) in a highly concentrated mix of Orca + RO. After about a week, I'll add a brick to each plantsite while dosing 15ml every res change.

From what I understood is that Great White even contains more stuff then Orca. So how I got rootrot is still a mystery to me...

 

[GrumpAzz]

From what I understood is that Great White even contains more stuff then Orca. So how I got rootrot is still a mystery to me...

I'll read through the thread and see if I can be of some help. I just piped in when I saw bennies being discussed.

I read threads backwards sometimes cuz I like to just confuse myself, I guess..

 

[moe.red]

Lots I missed here but since you have sterilized I would plan to stay that way the rest of the grow.

Curious why this happened in the first place.

My advice is to switch to the sterile grow style using h2o2 from day 1 and dosing weekly until you get a handle on this. Get a couple of good grows under your belt and then perhaps go back and take a look. There are master growers who use sterile. Which style to go with gets into philosophy as well as science.

Sterile is not a panacea that fixes all root problems but it does prevent bad anaerobic bacteria and pathogens. It also kills viable root cells so moderation is key.

In terms of what went wrong, we only have guesses. First and foremost is it takes time to establish a colony sufficient to block out other bacteria. And until a biofilm covers that colony it is weak to environmental and biological stressors. Without seeding the starting water in some way this will take on average 45 days. Lots can go wrong inn45 days. People familiar with cycling a new aquarium will understand this timing and process.

Not all bacteria in a bottle products work plain and simple. It’s an expensive product that the average user never knows if it worked or not. Studies in the aquarium trade have shown very mixed results that they work. It’s a lot like going to the vitamin shop. You almost need to be a doctor to understand which bottles do anything at all.

What works for me every friggin time without fail is to transplant something from a cycled system into the new system and baby it for a couple weeks. No ph or temp swings. Leave the EC alone. This has proven for me to work every time and bring the overall cycling time down by half it more. 15 days vs 45 kinda thing. Also you will need to feed them if there is no plant life providing starches thru the roots. Seedlings do not support a proper wall to wall community. Nutes are helpful but are not a direct food source for the good stuff we want to bloom. Think Petri dish here. Dump some orca in a sterile dish with nothing in it and then one with dextrose or other starch based agar and see which one grows. Nothing will happen in the sterile dish. The agar dish will produce colonies in time if all the environmental factors are correct.

Better than a bottle of bacteria spores… Get yourself a really good colony and then keep growing in that system. So when you harvest don’t just drain it and dry it out or worse yet let it sit and clean it at the start of the next grow. Do a complete water change but put it back in service to keep that biofilm alive on every surface. Cycling time on the next grow is zero.

That works wonders for bacteria. If you want fungi You will still need to supplement and wait for fungi to grow. Fungi attaches to roots not to walls pumps and pipes. You will be removing it all when you harvest.

I know that is a lot and honestly we are just scratching the surface. This symbiotic relationship is incredibly complex. I’ve been studying it for years and still do not comprehend most of it. We growers for the most part have blunt objects to work with like what color are the roots and will never know the full picture of what actually is growing on the roots. Our job is to give nature the best chance and get out of her way.

 

[GrumpAzz]

From what I understood is that Great White even contains more stuff then Orca. So how I got rootrot is still a mystery to me...

I passed out reading through the thread, but Moe gave you a lot of helpful info.

I doubt this narrows it down and possible has nothing to do with the rot, but 18c is pretty low for resevoir temps. Running bennies, I keep my water at 72° which translates to roughly 22c. @moe.red, anything there with his low temps that could've raised an issue?

 

[moe.red]

I passed out reading through the thread, but Moe gave you a lot of helpful info.

I doubt this narrows it down and possible has nothing to do with the rot, but 18c is pretty low for resevoir temps. Running bennies, I keep my water at 72° which translates to roughly 22c. @moe.red, anything there with his low temps that could've raised an issue?

Yeah did not catch that.

Take a look at this


Simply put warmer temps, especially when dealing with spores (what comes in the bottle-not active bacteria) are helpful in getting things going. Pls note above is in C not F

If I were running live I’d want to be in the 72 range. In this case with h2o2 colder gives better O2 which is needed on a struggling plant. Colder temps will somewhat limit root growth.

 

[GrumpAzz]

Yeah did not catch that.

Take a look at this

View attachment 101048
Simply put warmer temps, especially when dealing with spores (what comes in the bottle-not active bacteria) are helpful in getting things going. Pls note above is in C not F

If I were running live I’d want to be in the 72 range. In this case with h2o2 colder gives better O2 which is needed on a struggling plant. Colder temps will somewhat limit root growth.

So could the colder temps have had a hand in the root rot issue, inhibiting the good bacteria growth?

Also, did you ever chime in on the Orca vs. Great White discussion? I used Orca for the simple fact it's a liquid. Is there a reason one shouldn't use Great White in hydro?

 

[moe.red]

So could the colder temps have had a hand in the root rot issue, inhibiting the good bacteria growth?

Also, did you ever chime in on the Orca vs. Great White discussion? I used Orca for the simple fact it's a liquid. Is there a reason one shouldn't use Great White in hydro?

The way I see it is if you have a proper colony of bacillus Amy I’d have to look up the full name then pythium can’t get a foothold. So conditions were favorable to pythium in this grow. It’s overly complex to say with certainty but yes low temps make for slow bacillus growth.

In my testing with orca and great white I found orca established on a Petri dish much faster. Great white seemed to do a better job getting fungi growing. I actually use both in a new res to cover my bases if I don’t have a running clean system to seed from.

I think a lot depends on how old the bottle is, how it was shipped and stored, etc. it’s very possible to get a dead bottle and how would you know? You would have to take a sample of each on a sterile environment and grow them out on a petri to see what’s alive. Even then there are so many different organisms you never really know what you got. So there is a lot of trust going on for the average grower.

If I had to pick one over the other for hydro I would pick orca based on limited testing done a long time ago.

I actually got the best results from max microbe. That said they sell a lot less of it so chances are orca will be fresher as a blanket statement that may or may not be true for growers in different locations.

 

[One_Bell]

Since I am seeing white pistols would it be wise to use the preflower nutrient regime shown as below

VEG
	ml per liter recomm. TA	half or recommend dose per liter	per 10 liter	per 30 liter
micro	1,2	0,6	6	18
grow	1,8	0,9	9	27
bloom	0,6	0,3	3	9
fulvic	2	1	10	30
seaweed	5	2,5	25	75
urtimax	30	10	100	300
PREFLOWER
	ml per liter recomm. TA	half or recommend dose per liter	per 10 liter	per 30 liter
micro	2	1	10	30
grow	2	1	10	30
bloom	1,5	0,75	7,5	22,5
seaweed	5	2,5	25	75
bloombooster	3	1,5	15	45
bloombooster	5	2,5	25	75
fulvic	2	1	10	30
urtimax	30	10	100	300

And adding peroxide instead of Great White and Voodoo Juice?

 

[moe.red]

Since I am seeing white pistols would it be wise to use the preflower nutrient regime shown as below

VEG
	ml per liter recomm. TA	half or recommend dose per liter	per 10 liter	per 30 liter
micro	1,2	0,6	6	18
grow	1,8	0,9	9	27
bloom	0,6	0,3	3	9
fulvic	2	1	10	30
seaweed	5	2,5	25	75
urtimax	30	10	100	300
PREFLOWER
	ml per liter recomm. TA	half or recommend dose per liter	per 10 liter	per 30 liter
micro	2	1	10	30
grow	2	1	10	30
bloom	1,5	0,75	7,5	22,5
seaweed	5	2,5	25	75
bloombooster	3	1,5	15	45
bloombooster	5	2,5	25	75
fulvic	2	1	10	30
urtimax	30	10	100	300

And adding peroxide instead of Great White and Voodoo Juice?

I’m not familiar with your nutes based on that chart.

If seaweed is organic it won’t help you in a sterile DWC. Organics nutes in general do not become plant available without helper bacteria which you are killing off. I don’t know why there is 2x bloombuster. Without knowing the nutes I would look cautiously at the amount of p and k resulting from this recipe. Is cal mag replaced by something else in that lineup? You are at peak calcium need right now.

And yes stop any Bennie’s and switch to peroxide. Your goal for initial treatment should be 25ppm added 2x the first week and drop down to 10-15 ppm once a week going forward. How you get there will depend on % and water volume. I find it easier to just use the test strips than to do the mental gymnastics. Here in the us h2o2 test strips can be found on Amazon pretty cheap. One bottle will last you several grows.

By adding once a week you will actually overall be low in ppm. So day 1 is 10ppm. Day 2 may only be 2 or 3. By day seven it will be undetectable. So even tho you are currently unprotected no colony will grow in a week so anything that comes in will never get a foothold. This method keeps peroxide off the roots as much as possible but keeps all bacteria at bay.

Enzymes at the same time will help clean up the mess and essentially exfoliate the roots so you can get back to proper function. Have you got anything labeled with enzymes?

 

[One_Bell]

I used this sheet and converted it to 10 liter (one bucket) en 30 liters (approx. system amount). Is it save to switch to the preflower schedule now I am seeing white pistols forming on both plants?

I also swapped out the blue Adlight and replaced it with the deep red which follows the main light cycle (18/6). Infrared lights coming up 15 minutes before and after the mainlight + UV 5 minutes every hour the mainlight is on.

Unfortunately I have no products currently with enzymes...

 

[One_Bell]

Day 43 since sprouting, a little improvement with the plants still being alive lol, slowly start to look a tiny bit better but I won't give up on these ladies yet. Got some more peroxide and just gave them a res change with the preflower nutrient regime. I have been seeing white pistols for a week now so I thought lets get on with it.







This time without Great White, VJ, Urtimax (bio) and Seaweed (also bio).

 

[Bandit420]

Enzymes at the same time will help clean up the mess and essentially exfoliate the roots so you can get back to proper function. Have you got anything labeled with enzymes?

This stuff here is the go-to for DWC growers around my parts. Cleans that rot up while also stopping it and turns a lot of the muck into plant food

Amazon.com : Hygrozyme Premiere Horticultural Enzymatic Formula, 1-Liter : Fertilizers : Patio, Lawn & Garden

Amazon.com : Hygrozyme Premiere Horticultural Enzymatic Formula, 1-Liter : Fertilizers : Patio, Lawn & Garden

www.amazon.com

 

[One_Bell]

This stuff here is the go-to for DWC growers around my parts. Cleans that rot up while also stopping it and turns a lot of the muck into plant food

Amazon.com : Hygrozyme Premiere Horticultural Enzymatic Formula, 1-Liter : Fertilizers : Patio, Lawn & Garden

Amazon.com : Hygrozyme Premiere Horticultural Enzymatic Formula, 1-Liter : Fertilizers : Patio, Lawn & Garden

www.amazon.com

Awesome, but damn not available where I am currently growing. I will check if I can find it somewhere else, thanks!

 

[moe.red]

I used this sheet and converted it to 10 liter (one bucket) en 30 liters (approx. system amount). Is it save to switch to the preflower schedule now I am seeing white pistols forming on both plants?

I also swapped out the blue Adlight and replaced it with the deep red which follows the main light cycle (18/6). Infrared lights coming up 15 minutes before and after the mainlight + UV 5 minutes every hour the mainlight is on.

Unfortunately I have no products currently with enzymes...

You don’t know me from Adam so you do what you think is best. But that feed chart looks just like the marketing crap we see in the us. Bloom boosters are a way to sell another bottle. EC is double or triple what I run. Feeding this way will lead to chasing your tail and imbalances imo.

Simple is better.

Starting with npk can you figure out what ratios you are currently running based on that chart or do you not have enough info?

Where is your calcium coming from (which bottle) and how much?

All that said we need to get those roots working for the ratios to matter. That is step 1 here.

I’ll tell you that in my experience properly drinking plants do not need more than a balanced 500 ppm (500 scale) the entire grow. That chart has you running 4x that at the end. Good for the guy selling the bottle bad for the grower.

@smoke runs even lower Ec than me and grows trees producing pounds at a time. That much salt is just not beneficial

 

[smoke]

I passed out reading through the thread, but Moe gave you a lot of helpful info.

I doubt this narrows it down and possible has nothing to do with the rot, but 18c is pretty low for resevoir temps. Running bennies, I keep my water at 72° which translates to roughly 22c. @moe.red, anything there with his low temps that could've raised an issue?

I run chillers at 68 deg

 

[smoke]

@smoke runs even lower Ec than me and grows trees producing pounds at a time.

I would like to see more growers join the 500 club because it works.

 

[moe.red]

I run chillers at 68 deg
View attachment 101248

Great for O2. Makes bacteria grow slow. Doesn’t stop it tho that’s for sure.

 

[moe.red]

I would like to see more growers join the 500 club because it works.

What I’m wondering is where is the cal mag in this lineup.

 

[One_Bell]

What I’m wondering is where is the cal mag in this lineup.

The nutrients are coming from General Hydroponics now called Terra Aquatica. I am using the softwater ones beceause I a using RO water 0ppm.

The ratio’s:
Micro = 5–0-1
Grow = 3-1-6
Bloom= 0-5-4

They state don’t use calmag if using the softwater line.

 

[moe.red]

I just spent a half hour on the terra aquatica website and I am just scratching my head.

I can’t find labels anywhere. Can you shoot a pic of the labels on the 3 part bottles. I think they are the same as gh here in the states what both smoke and I use. If so there is no possible way to grow good weed with RO water and no cal mag. I feel like that website has you off in the weeds. If what you have is the same as ours I’ll tell you exactly what to do, starting with picking up a bottle of cal mag. You can do the entire grow with the 4 bottles nothing more.

This is the info I am looking for

 

[smoke]

The nutrients are coming from General Hydroponics now called Terra Aquatica. I am using the softwater ones beceause I a using RO water 0ppm.

The ratio’s:
Micro = 5–0-1
Grow = 3-1-6
Bloom= 0-5-4

They state don’t use calmag if using the softwater line.

Ive run both the hard water and soft water micro in my system and see no difference in the 2. It wasn't until 2 years ago that i even knew there was a micro for soft water.

I start with ro water, add calmag to 180 ppm then add the nutrients and adjust the ccalmag (always up)never down from the base of calmag at 180 ppm. So in my water at least 1/3 of ppms is from the calmag.

Ive joked before that all the plants really need is water and calmag, but yes they definitely need the calmag

 

[One_Bell]

I just spent a half hour on the terra aquatica website and I am just scratching my head.

I can’t find labels anywhere. Can you shoot a pic of the labels on the 3 part bottles. I think they are the same as gh here in the states what both smoke and I use. If so there is no possible way to grow good weed with RO water and no cal mag. I feel like that website has you off in the weeds. If what you have is the same as ours I’ll tell you exactly what to do, starting with picking up a bottle of cal mag. You can do the entire grow with the 4 bottles nothing more.

This is the info I am looking for

View attachment 101265

Unfortunately mine has different labels (part of the renaming the brand for this part of the world I believe):
Micro:



Grow:



Bloom:



I just ordered a bottle of calmag anyway, hopefully it will arive (the soonest) in two days...

It seems similar but it is not completely. The NPK ratio however, is the same.

 

[One_Bell]

Ive run both the hard water and soft water micro in my system and see no difference in the 2. It wasn't until 2 years ago that i even knew there was a micro for soft water.

I start with ro water, add calmag to 180 ppm then add the nutrients and adjust the ccalmag (always up)never down from the base of calmag at 180 ppm. So in my water at least 1/3 of ppms is from the calmag.

Ive joked before that all the plants really need is water and calmag, but yes they definitely need the calmag

Good to know, just ordered some and I hope it will arrive here soon. I found it very deceiving from TA to state everywhere you don't need it in combination of micro soft water and RO...

So if I read your comment correct you not very often over 540 ppm? x500 scale?

 

[smoke]

Good to know, just ordered some and I hope it will arrive here soon. I found it very deceiving from TA to state everywhere you don't need it in combination of micro soft water and RO...

So if I read your comment correct you not very often over 540 ppm? x500 scale?

540 on the 500 scale would be higher than I usually feed. 420 on the 700 scale is a sweet spot for my grows. Here's a shot of my book that is updated daily. On nov 20 day 2 of flower ppm at 390 and6.0 ph

 

[moe.red]

Unfortunately mine has different labels (part of the renaming the brand for this part of the world I believe):
Micro:
View attachment 101275
View attachment 101276View attachment 101277

Grow:

View attachment 101278View attachment 101279

Bloom:

View attachment 101280View attachment 101281View attachment 101282

I just ordered a bottle of calmag anyway, hopefully it will arive (the soonest) in two days...

It seems similar but it is not completely. The NPK ratio however, is the same.

Not making this easy are they.

Let’s assume it is the same formula as the us. What smoke said about starting with cal mag and adding on top of that is the right answer imo. Cal mag also has N and helps set ph. When switching from veg to flower the calcium in micro is not enough for cannabis. There is a telltale brown spot deficiency that happens about this time if not upping calcium.

 

[One_Bell]

540 on the 500 scale would be higher than I usually feed. 420 on the 700 scale is a sweet spot for my grows. Here's a shot of my book that is updated daily. On nov 20 day 2 of flower ppm at 390 and6.0 phView attachment 101307

View attachment 101304

Thank you very much for sharing. My Apera pen uses the x500 scale b ut the BlueLab x700, something I was not aware of during the first start lol. But sharing your ppm's are really valuable to me. Lot's of people suggested I upped the nutrients while already on 1.5 EC during my first grow... (just took a look at my own book and at 15 days after sprouting I was on 820ppm during my first round)

Not making this easy are they.

Let’s assume it is the same formula as the us. What smoke said about starting with cal mag and adding on top of that is the right answer imo. Cal mag also has N and helps set ph. When switching from veg to flower the calcium in micro is not enough for cannabis. There is a telltale brown spot deficiency that happens about this time if not upping calcium.

Yeah I think it is a safe bet since I compared the NPK ratio's of all three and they are the same. TA also stated somewhere the labels can differ between various regions but the formula stays the same...But they also stated don't use calmag when using Micro with RO, so this leaves some room haha...

All jokes aside, should I do another res change when I get the calmag in? Mix it with the RO untill a ppm of 180 (x700) and then add nutes until I reach around 420ppm? Sounds like a plan to me! Also leaving out the Great White and VJ but still ad H202 at 1ml per liter?

 

[One_Bell]

Not making this easy are they.

I also spend a lot of time on their website opening everything up but nowhere they mention the specifics like on the bottle you got. On my labels everything is squeezed together and allthough they have safety regulation pdfs of multiple pages they do not state the listed ingredients like on the bottle. Very strange practice when your unique selling points seems to be development with Nasa scientists and what not.... Which I presume makes it more scientific and most of the time companies like that share a lot of specific information.

 

[One_Bell]

Went to check on the roots this morning and from the left plant (the one most sick) the entire rootball came of. Don’t know if that is a good sign or not and I truly hope the plant survives. The one on the right gets more yellowing on the leaves probably from the missing calmag.

 

[moe.red]

Not good.

I hate to say it but sounds like pythium won this battle.

I know it sucks but paying dues while on the learning curve is something we all go thru. Now you know how to do it correctly from the start and tye next grow will be so much better.

 

[One_Bell]

Not good.

I hate to say it but sounds like pythium won this battle.

I know it sucks but paying dues while on the learning curve is something we all go thru. Now you know how to do it correctly from the start and tye next grow will be so much better.

Yeah it does suck, big time... But better now then again near the finish line. And like I said earlier, I am so glad I finally found out what was wrong. So for me it also has an upside, since I kept scratching my head not understanding what was happening. Now I am doubting for the next grow if I should go all sterile or switch to bennies after a while (but I don't yet when exactly).

 

[moe.red]

Yeah it does suck, big time... But better now then again near the finish line. And like I said earlier, I am so glad I finally found out what was wrong. So for me it also has an upside, since I kept scratching my head not understanding what was happening. Now I am doubting for the next grow if I should go all sterile or switch to bennies after a while (but I don't yet when exactly).

My advice is do a sterile run. Get yourself dialed in on the next grow. Give your system a chance to work out every bit of pathogen.

Start low on EC with just the 3 bottles and cal mag.

You will get this figured out.

 

[smoke]

My advice is do a sterile run. Get yourself dialed in on the next grow. Give your system a chance to work out every bit of pathogen.

Start low on EC with just the 3 bottles and cal mag.

You will get this figured out.

Agree with sterile as its the most fool proof

 

[One_Bell]

My advice is do a sterile run. Get yourself dialed in on the next grow. Give your system a chance to work out every bit of pathogen.

Start low on EC with just the 3 bottles and cal mag.

You will get this figured out.

Agree with sterile as its the most fool proof

Thanks guys, I won't give up and I am trying this until I get busted lol. Again, and I can't say this enough, I am very glad that I finally found a few people that actually have hands on experience with (r)dwc and autoflowers. Finally got some guidelines regarding ppm's en EC's, which I am very thankful for!

 

[smoke]

Thanks guys, I won't give up and I am trying this until I get busted lol. Again, and I can't say this enough, I am very glad that I finally found a few people that actually have hands on experience with (r)dwc and autoflowers. Finally got some guidelines regarding ppm's en EC's, which I am very thankful for!

Never grown a autoflower

 

[One_Bell]

Unfortunately no sign of confirmation regarding the calmag, so I don't know when it will arrive In the meantime the right plant also shows more signs of deficiency... I had hopes I might could save this one, but with this rate going I doubt it...

 

[One_Bell]

Calmag is incoming today. I will do a reservoir swap with the first 180ppm calmag and then add nutrients. Last res change I used te preflower mix, should I go for the flower mix this time? Any pointers regarding the ratio’s npk? I mix batches of ten liters at a time.