Question: Plants in coco still need feed calmag under Hps/cmh?, even in Ro water

[J1sonbrother]

Would love to hear your thoughts,Thanks

 

[MiGrampa]

It's more like plants in coco (regardless of lighting) will need cal/mag supplements to some extent. This due to the nature of coco itself. RO water is simply water that's been completely stripped of its mineral content. The "advantage" of using RO water is frequently misunderstood. It doesn't allow for easier nutrient uptake. It allows you to know what is exactly in your nutrient mix because you're starting with a near absolute zero ppm ...

You will still need to adjust the pH of the water after adding nutrients. You should also keep your eye on pH swings. (RO water has zero buffers to help stabilize its pH and is very susceptible to pH swings.)

For more info, please search for @Aqua Man's post about nutrient water pH. There's a lot of helpful information discussed there.

Edit - here's a link to that thread: https://budbuilders.org/threads/ph-levels-for-cannabis-explained-by-aqua-man.196/

 

[J1sonbrother]

It's more like plants in coco (regardless of lighting) will need cal/mag supplements to some extent. This due to the nature of coco itself. RO water is simply water that's been completely stripped of its mineral content. The "advantage" of using RO water is frequently misunderstood. It doesn't allow for easier nutrient uptake. It allows you to know what is exactly in your nutrient mix because you're starting with a near absolute zero ppm ...

You will still need to adjust the pH of the water after adding nutrients. You should also keep your eye on pH swings. (RO water has zero buffers to help stabilize its pH and is very susceptible to pH swings.)

For more info, please search for @Aqua Man's post about nutrient water pH. There's a lot of helpful information discussed there.

Edit - here's a link to that thread: https://budbuilders.org/threads/ph-levels-for-cannabis-explained-by-aqua-man.196/

Thanks,Migrampa
Here re plants with 2 gals pure coco and rockwoolslabs substrates.
day: 28 with Ro 14-16ec.
tbh,I'm really newbee for cmh and hps and stuck not knowing how much calmag I gonna feed.
I hit calmag with 100 ppm/1.2g epsom pergal in first 3 weeks, and reduced to 60ppm in week4 .
So, I am wondering whether I gonna keep lowering the calmag over the next few weeks, even though there re
View attachment VID_20231027_000332_505.mp4.mp4
still 5%cal MICRO bottle , and these dark black green leaves look to be Nitrogen toxicity or genetic ?

 

[MiGrampa]

Due to the reddish hue produced by your lighting, its a bit difficult to tell exactly the level of green your leaves are expressing. However, from what I see you have not reached nitrogen toxicity. From a nitrogen standpoint, they simply look well fed. I would likely be able to see things better with a few still picture close-ups as well as a few full plant profile pictures.

As for signs of Ca deficiency, there are some leaves that appear to be showing the classic zebra-stripes. I think you said you're using epsom salts. That only has magnesium so its not providing any supplemental Ca. I'm a soil grower so I'm not able to advise by experience how much liquid Cal/Mag you need to add. Someone like @Aqua Man or one of our dedicated coco growers can give you a more fine-tuned answer than that. I will say yes, you need to boost calcium. That much is clear. You might want to discontinue using the epsom salts and only use Cal/Mag because too much magnesium will interfere with calcium uptake. However in your case, I don't think you have an abundance of Mg ... just not enough calcium available for uptake.

Edit - @smoke might be better able to fine-tune my answer since @Aqua Man is not online at the moment.

 

[Aqua Man]

Due to the reddish hue produced by your lighting, its a bit difficult to tell exactly the level of green your leaves are expressing. However, from what I see you have not reached nitrogen toxicity. From a nitrogen standpoint, they simply look well fed. I would likely be able to see things better with a few still picture close-ups as well as a few full plant profile pictures.

As for signs of Ca deficiency, there are some leaves that appear to be showing the classic zebra-stripes. I think you said you're using epsom salts. That only has magnesium so its not providing any supplemental Ca. I'm a soil grower so I'm not able to advise by experience how much liquid Cal/Mag you need to add. Someone like @Aqua Man or one of our dedicated coco growers can give you a more fine-tuned answer than that. I will say yes, you need to boost calcium. That much is clear. You might want to discontinue using the epsom salts and only use Cal/Mag because too much magnesium will interfere with calcium uptake. However in your case, I don't think you have an abundance of Mg ... just not enough calcium available for uptake.

Edit - @smoke might be better able to fine-tune my answer since @Aqua Man is not online at the moment.

Bang on if using RO you only need cal-mag at half the recommended dose. Mag sulphate will benefot later in flower.

Absolutely right about high mag lowering availability of Ca.
If tap water it’s generally mag sulphate that needs to be added.

At 1 gram per gal of mag sulphate should be ok to add extra to the cal mag but much depends on the base nutrients and can say definitely mag sulphate is not needed under these conditions

 

[LJFarming]

Just like both the previous guys that know more than me said. IT ALL DEPENDS. What’s your base nutrients and how much Cal/Mag is already in them? I have only grown in COCO since I switched to indoors and I rarely added Mag/Sul to Jacks but I definitely added 1/2 the recommended dose of Growmore flowering CalMag against Jacks recommendation. I also use RO source water.

I recently switched to JR Croptech salts and they recommend never adding CalMag because they are high on both. I was pleased with my first run using JR and it seemed almost identical to what I was getting using Jacks. I tried something different mainly because I was adding $500 worth of extra inputs to Jacks but can’t honestly recommend JR until I run it for a couple more grows.

Just my 2 centavos.

 

[Observer]

coco, 0.4 gallon pots, LEDs, 80s F.

Currently adding Epsom salt 1/8tsp/0.4-0.7gs mGSulf, along with base JRCROPTECH nutes.

is it needed? is there enough magsulfate in the JR?
i dont know.

but i know the coco substrate likes to take some K and mG, so i add extra for the Coco Sub.

 

[LJFarming]

I talked to Josh at JR to ask about possibly adding CalMag and he told me absolutely no because their POTION/SOLUTION is at the high end for Mag and to add extra CalNit if you see a calcium deficiency.

 

[LJFarming]

Or CalClr if they don’t need more N.

 

[Observer]

JACKS 5-12-26 6.3% mG
JRCROPTECH 9-17-28 2.80% mG
JRCROPTECH 0-21-26 5.25% mG

The jacks "3-2-1" recipe calls for an even extra gram of epsom salt

But we don't need to add epsom with the JR?

Something doesn't add up, when jacks has more mG and the "recipe" calls for adding more epsom (under LEDs/Coco maybe why?)



Ramsey said no to adding epsom (with JRCROPTECH) as well when I asked him about it, but we didn't go into the logic or the why.

 

[LJFarming]

You figure out the chemistry if you want bud. I’m just telling what they told me.

Josh said JR is on the high end of MG. Don’t add CalMag. Adjust Calcium another way.

Jacks doesn’t have a Veg and Flower option either. I honestly didn’t add Epsom to jacks either since 50% of growers say it’s unnecessary. I use RO water. If a gram per gallon or a dump truck per gallon of Epsom/MAGSuL works for you then do whatcha do. I am definitely not recommending to change what works!

 

[Observer]

You figure out the chemistry if you want bud. I’m just telling what they told me.

Josh said JR is on the high end of MG. Don’t add CalMag. Adjust Calcium another way.

Jacks doesn’t have a Veg and Flower option either. I honestly didn’t add Epsom to jacks either since 50% of growers say it’s unnecessary. I use RO water. If a gram per gallon or a dump truck per gallon of Epsom/MAGSuL works for you then do whatcha do. I am definitely not recommending to change what works!

Just going off the mg % Jr has less than jacks, if you didn't need to add it with jacks then cool, I don't know.

I'm not at all saying it's needed

 

[Observer]

the science of it all (lol) is cool.

 

[ZombieRider]

I run GH but have been thinking about running Epsom salts...for the sulfur/terps. I remember @Aqua Man telling me at what mg/p.gal but I forgot. Thinking of just giving them 60ppm well water + epsom salt for last week or so before chop.

As for the calmag, its trial and error for me. I just add it at half strength, then see what the leaves say. I usually dont run more than 2.5ml p.gal with my 60ppm water and they do fine but its specific to each plant.

 

[Observer]

I run GH but have been thinking about running Epsom salts...for the sulfur/terps. I remember @Aqua Man telling me at what mg/p.gal but I forgot. Thinking of just giving them 60ppm well water + epsom salt for last week or so before chop.

As for the calmag, its trial and error for me. I just add it at half strength, then see what the leaves say. I usually dont run more than 2.5ml p.gal with my 60ppm water and they do fine but its specific to each plant.

this batch of flowers im finishing out, im only giving them epsom salt/mag sulfate this last week or so.

i have the basic minimum nutrient requirements for the plants somewhere, id have to find it.

as per applying it per ones grow context, read plants i suppose/comparing ec input>outputs, narrowing them together.

 

[ZombieRider]

this batch of flowers im finishing out, im only giving them epsom salt/mag sulfate this last week or so.

i have the basic minimum nutrient requirements for the plants somewhere, id have to find it.

as per applying it per ones grow context, read plants i suppose/comparing ec input>outputs, narrowing them together.

Im gonna try this on this run for two plants...maybe all of them. How many mg per gallon you giving them? I never measure my runoff ec I just go with it lmfao.

 

[Aqua Man]

I run GH but have been thinking about running Epsom salts...for the sulfur/terps. I remember @Aqua Man telling me at what mg/p.gal but I forgot. Thinking of just giving them 60ppm well water + epsom salt for last week or so before chop.

As for the calmag, its trial and error for me. I just add it at half strength, then see what the leaves say. I usually dont run more than 2.5ml p.gal with my 60ppm water and they do fine but its specific to each plant.

With mega crop 2 part (jacks and a few other 3 parts are similar) i run 2g per gal at the end. Mg helps the burn and sulphur the terps and flavinoids. Of course dry and cure are the real huge part imo

 

[ZombieRider]

With mega crop 2 part (jacks and a few other 3 parts are similar) i run 2g per gal at the end. Mg helps the burn and sulphur the terps and flavinoids. Of course dry and cure are the real huge part imo

For sure dry and cure is important. I have been trying to dial in my dry and cure, im running 60f/60% 12-14 days, fan moving air on the floor. Anything i might not be thinking about in this process? I tried grove bags and they keep it a tad dry but its nice to shove lots of bud in one huge bag

 

[Aqua Man]

For sure dry and cure is important. I have been trying to dial in my dry and cure, im running 60f/60% 12-14 days, fan moving air on the floor. Anything i might not be thinking about in this process? I tried grove bags and they keep it a tad dry but its nice to shove lots of bud in one huge bag

Sounds perfect to me brother. First 3 days though i prefer a warmer dryer environment like 65-70f and 50%RH. Then i slow things down how you do it

 

[Observer]

Im gonna try this on this run for two plants...maybe all of them. How many mg per gallon you giving them? I never measure my runoff ec I just go with it lmfao.

Currently I'm adding 1/8 tsp
0.4-1gram / gallon

I can get back with ya what the poms are

Maybe, ill give the ones im about to chop just tap go up/check around 100-300ppm Epsom salt

 

[Observer]

Sounds perfect to me brother. First 3 days though i prefer a warmer dryer environment like 65-70f and 50%RH. Then i slow things down how you do it

Nice.

I gotta get/make a "cold room"

 

[ZombieRider]

Sounds perfect to me brother. First 3 days though i prefer a warmer dryer environment like 65-70f and 50%RH. Then i slow things down how you do it

Any particular reason you keep it warmer and drier first 3 days? I would assume it help's get rid of the moisture more evenly or something? I read somewhere that when you cut the plant it's not dead yet but it takes a day or two to die.

 

[ZombieRider]

Currently I'm adding 1/8 tsp
0.4-1gram / gallon

I can get back with ya what the poms are

Maybe, ill give the ones im about to chop just tap go up/check around 100-300ppm Epsom salt

Word, for sure lemme know the ppm's your working with so i can compare what i get. Of course im starting with 60ppm well water so that would change it a bit.

Nice.

I gotta get/make a "cold room"

Bro its so nice to have a dedicated dry room for sure. We have a pantry in our house where we store our food and fruits/veg from the garden, pretty big room. Stays nice and cold and dark. When i need to dry I setup a 5x5 tent in there and hang em in there. Honestly it gets SO cold in there I wonder if there are any negative effects drying in sub 60 degree's?

 

[Aqua Man]

Any particular reason you keep it warmer and drier first 3 days? I would assume it help's get rid of the moisture more evenly or something? I read somewhere that when you cut the plant it's not dead yet but it takes a day or two to die.

Correct to dry the outside of the bud and lower the risk of mold. When the plant is first cut there is a lot of moisture on the outside of the bud and that increases the risk of mold

 

[Max]

Correct to dry the outside of the bud and lower the risk of mold. When the plant is first cut there is a lot of moisture on the outside of the bud and that increases the risk of mold

Yeah I drop my rh down into the 40s and temp in the 20s first day or so then after three try to get it back to 60/60 but sometimes it don’t workout like that when you havnt got all the tools of the trade.little bit like growing.some days are beaut but some you just gotta manage it the best you can.

 

[Observer]

any negative effects drying in sub 60 degree's?

i Dont think so, the "negative" affect would be waiting to long to smoke some excellently dried weed, that had the proper time for enzymes and starches w/e to break down and conversions happening, lots of biological stuff still happening after cut, during the dry and cure phases once not over-dried and ready for cure, that all contribute to the final taste and smoothness of the end "product"


i think/pretty sure, 60-65f \\ 58-62RH will/is a lot better than a product dried (the whole time) at 65-75f+ \\ 50-58rh // 62-70rh

(again, ive only dried a few crops and dont have years of exp of drying and drying at different temps, besides drying higher than 60F, compared to colder slower drys - obviously appear/seem "better")

volatile hydrocarbons start to degrade/evaporate off the plant at like (i think around here >) 68-72f++) , literally losing terps to the environment, quality/smell/taste


depending how long its "drying"(temp/rh ofc) for, and when/at what point in time its jarred for curing, moisture content left in the plant/colas/buds/stems, all affect final quality-end quality, take the best buds in the world, dry them poorly/over-dry and you cant even cure them, not enough moisture content for the biological processes to continue taking place, it matters tremendously at these stages.

enzymes? starches and sugars? cannabinoids and other shit is breaking down/converting for the finale.




its ruined


basically growing for fun, sport, catch and release.

 

[Observer]

(again, ive only dried a few crops and dont have years of exp of this/drying and drying at different temps, besides drying higher than 60F ( 70s), compared to colder slower drys - obviously appear/seem "better")

so, correct me if im wrong or mistaken, these are just my observations and thoughts.



one way to convene tone through text, dumbass emojis, lol.

 

[MiGrampa]

so, correct me if im wrong or mistaken, these are just my observations and thoughts.



one way to convene tone through text, dumbass emojis, lol.

You're mostly right. It's when you get to the cure that you want to try to keep temps between 60F and 70F with humidity approximately 60%. There's a biological process involved when curing your harvest and it slows down or may even stop if things get too cool in the drying area.

 

[Observer]

You're mostly right. It's when you get to the cure that you want to try to keep temps between 60F and 70F with humidity approximately 60%.

gotcha, my current little dry spot rn is 73f (maybe a little colder now, its getting cold af outside) was just in the 80s a week or two ago now 30s-40s)

i suppose not too bad but not idea (73f), based off at what temps hydrocarbons "evaporate" at.

There's a biological process involved when curing your harvest and it slows down or may even stop if things get too cool in the drying area.

thats a good point i did not think of, can be too dry AND too cold to "move" things along, as temp is just energy of a thing basically.

im just being critical about the dry/cure, its an important step lol, it really changes the end-"product"


thanks @MiGrampa

 

[MiGrampa]

gotcha, my current little dry spot rn is 73f (maybe a little colder now, its getting cold af outside) was just in the 80s a week or two ago now 30s-40s)

i suppose not too bad but not idea, based off at what temps hydrocarbons "evaporate" at.

thats a good point i did not think of, can be too dry AND too cold to "move" things along, as temp is just energy of a thing basically.



thanks @MiGrampa

We made it to 73 yesterday. Today was in the 40's. Forecast is for a deep freeze in my neck of the woods on Halloween night.

We should all take a vote ... who all is in favor of by-passing winter and heading straight to spring, say "I" lol.

 

[Observer]

We made it to 73 yesterday. Today was in the 40's. Forecast is for a deep freeze in my neck of the woods on Halloween night.

We should all take a vote ... who all is in favor of by-passing winter and heading straight to spring, say "I" lol.

sounds good to me, its already just nasty out.

muddy, wet, humid as hell, just raining, and 40s.

36f now

 

[ZombieRider]

i Dont think so, the "negative" affect would be waiting to long to smoke some excellently dried weed, that had the proper time for enzymes and starches w/e to break down and conversions happening, lots of biological stuff still happening after cut, during the dry and cure phases once not over-dried and ready for cure, that all contribute to the final taste and smoothness of the end "product"


i think/pretty sure, 60-65f \\ 58-62RH will/is a lot better than a product dried (the whole time) at 65-75f+ \\ 50-58rh // 62-70rh

(again, ive only dried a few crops and dont have years of exp of drying and drying at different temps, besides drying higher than 60F, compared to colder slower drys - obviously appear/seem "better")

volatile hydrocarbons start to degrade/evaporate off the plant at like (i think around here >) 68-72f++) , literally losing terps to the environment, quality/smell/taste


depending how long its "drying"(temp/rh ofc) for, and when/at what point in time its jarred for curing, moisture content left in the plant/colas/buds/stems, all affect final quality-end quality, take the best buds in the world, dry them poorly/over-dry and you cant even cure them, not enough moisture content for the biological processes to continue taking place, it matters tremendously at these stages.

enzymes? starches and sugars? cannabinoids and other shit is breaking down/converting for the finale.




its ruined


basically growing for fun, sport, catch and release.

Interesting, like all else in growing, its not so simple as it might seem at first. Do you usually go full 14 day dry?

You're mostly right. It's when you get to the cure that you want to try to keep temps between 60F and 70F with humidity approximately 60%. There's a biological process involved when curing your harvest and it slows down or may even stop if things get too cool in the drying area.

So anything lower than 60 begins to trap moisture into the bud because it can't offgas the chlorophyll filled moisture?

 

[Observer]

Interesting, like all else in growing, its not so simple as it might seem at first. Do you usually go full 14 day dry?

So anything lower than 60 begins to trap moisture into the bud because it can't offgas the chlorophyll filled moisture?

i cant even make it go 10 days at 70s and 50-60rh it seems, for 10-36inch tall plants or so

in 50srh/70s f, no fan, it seems to take 3-4 days to almost dry out and be too late to jar almost

 

[Observer]

So anything lower than 60 begins to trap moisture into the bud because it can't offgas the chlorophyll filled moisture?

OoH

 

[MiGrampa]

Interesting, like all else in growing, its not so simple as it might seem at first. Do you usually go full 14 day dry?

So anything lower than 60 begins to trap moisture into the bud because it can't offgas the chlorophyll filled moisture?

No, I don't usually go a full 14 days drying. My drying is typically done at about 65F and after 10 days I place the harvest into Grove bags. I check them for moisture after 24 hrs. There's been a number of times I've had to pull the buds out of the Grove bag and give it another 24 hrs drying time. For me, full dry is typically 10 -11 days. Cure sets in after a couple of weeks and seems to be at its peak at about the 4 week mark.

As for trapping moisture below 60F, I suppose that could be part of it.

I always assumed that since the cure is actually a biological process that the microbes involved simply slowed down to the point they aren't doing much of anything to enhance the cure.

 

[Observer]

No, I don't usually go a full 14 days drying. My drying is typically done at about 65F and after 10 days I place the harvest into Grove bags. I check them for moisture after 24 hrs. There's been a number of times I've had to pull the buds out of the Grove bag and give it another 24 hrs drying time. For me, full dry is typically 10 -11 days. Cure sets in after a couple of weeks and seems to be at its peak at about the 4 week mark.

As for trapping moisture below 60F, I suppose that could be part of it.

I always assumed that since the cure is actually a biological process that the microbes involved simply slowed down to the point they aren't doing much of anything to enhance the cure.

yea, smart

 

[Observer]

Interesting, like all else in growing, its not so simple as it might seem at first.

not if, one wants to be critical and grow "perfect" quality, consistently, every time. --- IMO

appeal/appearance ,taste and scents, smoothness of the ignite/combustion of the Herb & inhale.

 

[MiGrampa]

not if, one wants to be critical and grow "perfect" quality, consistently every time.

appeal,taste and scents.

The quest for perfection will drive you crazy. I'm not sure if there's such a thing as "perfect" quality when it comes to cannabis. There's so many variables to juggle that influence how things turn out in the end. Consistently good results is what I shoot for ... Perfection? You might as well be chasing your tail. lol

 

[Observer]

The quest for perfection will drive you crazy.

it sure does

I'm not sure if there's such a thing as "perfect" quality when it comes to cannabis. There's so many variables to juggle that influence how things turn out in the end. Consistently good results is what I shoot for ... Perfection? You might as well be chasing your tail. lol

i do agree with you, thats why i include """

i just want/prefer each Nug to have a nice taste, and to hit "smoothly", i like colors too, i dont mind a bright lime green though.

and obviously to have potency that you want or need/dose thc/cannabinoids/entourage effects

and then when you find one of those nugs that hit those, knowing the water content % of that would be useful, along with other test like tissue samples, to know the elemental make up, like how much nitrogen or mG is still in this bud maybe, to "recreate" it, consistently.

knowing the science and mechanics behind the growth, then you can also manipulate further.

like including cold to bring out anthocyanin response, or spectrum wavelengths for different shapes/kind of growth one is after.
mimic nature indoors

or nutrient ratios, or hormone signaling.

 

[LJFarming]

The older I get the more the cold gets to ME. I use to love the snow but I’m pissed now when it sticks around to long and the muddy mess it creates when it leaves.

As for curing and drying I do welcome the colder temps. It’s easy enough to keep the RH correct with an exhaust fan on a controller for me. However I have to use an additional AC in the dry room besides the one in the Bloom room when it’s mid summer and hot to dry properly.