Cloning

[GoodShit97]

I need help people.
All my clones leaves keep turning brown and rotting....
I thought too much moisture but Idfk why anymore, ive completely removed the dome and its still happening. Ill grab some pics in a sec, cloner is sitting in ambient light, on top of my pellet stove to stay warm so being too cold isnt an option.

 

[GoodShit97]

You also mentioned you keep water in tray to raise humidity. Dumping that and just keeping the cubes moist will help bring that rh in to a better range.

I havent added any to it today and its dry this morning so ill leave it that way.

 

[moe.red]

And if this is true, why have i been able to just cut and stuff in plugs without cutting off any vegetation and have them all root? Just dumb luck?

yeah, I'm probably wrong.

 

[GoodShit97]

yeah, I'm probably wrong.

I wasnt saying that you were man, just trying to learn.

 

[moe.red]

I wasnt saying that you were man, just trying to learn.

Aren't we all. I'm wrong a lot, no offence taken or meant.

 

[GoodShit97]

Aren't we all. I'm wrong a lot, no offence taken or meant.

Right on. Im wrong 99% of the time so i try to learn as much as i can when i can lol.



dome is propped up on one side, currently sitting at 75° and 60% humidity.
Gonna close the vents and see if i can get to 77° and 70%

 

[steamroller]

I would snip the leaves back and even remove some.
This is a rough time of year.

 

[moe.red]

Right on. Im wrong 99% of the time so i try to learn as much as i can when i can lol.



dome is propped up on one side, currently sitting at 75° and 60% humidity.
Gonna close the vents and see if i can get to 77° and 70%

Higher humidity will slow down transpiration which will help. At this point, as high as you can get it without condensing on surfaces might be in order.

You just need some roots to fix the root cause of this problem. See what I did there?

 

[GoodShit97]

Higher humidity will slow down transpiration which will help. At this point, as high as you can get it without condensing on surfaces might be in order.

You just need some roots to fix the root cause of this problem. See what I did there?

Yeah, im trying to get to that sweet spot lol.
45 is too low and 90% seens too high now
Ive never had so many issues cloning.

 

[moe.red]

Yeah, im trying to get to that sweet spot lol.
45 is too low and 90% seens too high now
Ive never had so many issues cloning.

My assumption could be wrong. At 45 stomata should be all but closed. At 90 they will be full open, but no room in the air for additional H2O molecules, so transpiration stops for the most part in both of those scenarios.

The roots do not require transpiration to grow. Leaves and vegetation needs it to stay healthy and green.

It's very possible this is in fact not environmental.

Can we see a close up of the cut? Any nubs forming at all?

 

[MiGrampa]

@GoodShit97 your post doesn't describe the process you're using in detail. It almost sounds like you're using pods/pellets which leads me to think possibly there's not enough O2 present for your cuttings to root. I use an aero-cloner. You can purchase one starting at about $100 and up depending on where you look and the size you pick. You can also easily DIY one for a fraction of that cost. I think if you switch to the aerocloner your cloning issues will resolve itself. An aerocloner can clone just about anything including the kitchen sink, lol.

Another possibility is your root zone area might be too warm. You stated its on top of your pellet stove. What kind of temps do you have? Mid 70's is sufficient for cloning as is lower intensity cold white light at about 6000K color temperature. I would verify your temps and if they are within parameter.

If that fails, I would consider switching to the aerocloner for future attempts. You'll still see some yellowing especially if your lighting is too bright ... but you should also see roots between 7-10 days after you take your cuttings. I use rez-clear to keep the reservoir sterile.

Edit: I see in newer posts that you are trying to root in pods. It can work, but its much easier using an aerocloner.

 

[freezeland]

Yeah, im trying to get to that sweet spot lol.
45 is too low and 90% seens too high now
Ive never had so many issues cloning.

I like high 70’s for humidity and mid 70’s for temp when cloning. I have contributed enough here. Moe has given excellent advice and I think you’ll get it figured out. You seem to be getting the parameters in check. So I’ll check out. Good luck.

 

[GoodShit97]

My assumption could be wrong. At 45 stomata should be all but closed. At 90 they will be full open, but no room in the air for additional H2O molecules, so transpiration stops for the most part in both of those scenarios.

The roots do not require transpiration to grow. Leaves and vegetation needs it to stay healthy and green.

It's very possible this is in fact not environmental.

Can we see a close up of the cut? Any nubs forming at all?

No nubs forming at all on the ones i tossed this morning.

They are inside peat plugs so id rather not pull them out and disturb anything if ya follow lol.

Im like 99% positive its environmental, but like i said before im wrong 99% of the time too so who tf knows? Not me! Lol.

So im stuck in the middle is what it seems, too much or not enough transpiration and leaves are rotting. Gotta find the sweet spot.

 

[GoodShit97]

@GoodShit97 your post doesn't describe the process you're using in detail. It almost sounds like you're using pods/pellets which leads me to think possibly there's not enough O2 present for your cuttings to root. I use an aero-cloner. You can purchase one starting at about $100 and up depending on where you look and the size you pick. You can also easily DIY one for a fraction of that cost. I think if you switch to the aerocloner your cloning issues will resolve itself. An aerocloner can clone just about anything including the kitchen sink, lol.

Another possibility is your root zone area might be too warm. You stated its on top of your pellet stove. What kind of temps do you have? Mid 70's is sufficient for cloning as is lower intensity cold white light at about 6000K color temperature. I would verify your temps and if they are within parameter.

If that fails, I would consider switching to the aerocloner for future attempts. You'll still see some yellowing especially if your lighting is too bright ... but you should also see roots between 7-10 days after you take your cuttings. I use rez-clear to keep the reservoir sterile.

Edit: I see in newer posts that you are trying to root in pods. It can work, but its much easier using an aerocloner.

I know aero cloners are great, but man im dumber than the dumbest mofo there is and id fuck up an aero cloner quicker than you can snap your fingers. I can guarantee you that. I cant even manage a fish tank man.

Right now its 74° and 79% humidity, all leaves are droopy and sad.

Just gonna cut new ones and stick them in solo cups of promix in my 3x3, that has never failed me before.

 

[freezeland]

I know aero cloners are great, but man im dumber than the dumbest mofo there is and id fuck up an aero cloner quicker than you can snap your fingers. I can guarantee you that. I cant even manage a fish tank man.

Right now its 74° and 79% humidity, all leaves are droopy and sad.

Just gonna cut new ones and stick them in solo cups of promix in my 3x3, that has never failed me before.

Give them time to recover. Those parameters are now ideal IMO.

 

[GoodShit97]

@MiGrampa
Something like this would be good right?
Plant Cloning Machine - Deluxe 21-Site Bucket Cloner Kit by PowerGrow Systems https://a.co/d/bqX236I

Im gonna buy one if its decent

 

[GoodShit97]

Forgot to add this in the beginning.

These just get a little bit of light from a window, nothing crazy or direct, and then when the sun goes down they just get ambient light from in the living room.
I do not have a light directly over them.

 

[MiGrampa]

@MiGrampa
Something like this would be good right?
Plant Cloning Machine - Deluxe 21-Site Bucket Cloner Kit by PowerGrow Systems https://a.co/d/bqX236I

Im gonna buy one if its decent

That's one model and the price is pretty decent. Mine is only a 16 hole cloner. 21 holes would have been a better choice for me. My only concern is those aerator nozzles plug up over time. If you were to purchase it, also purchase a small bag of extra 360 degree spray nozzles. The nozzles are difficult to uplug and occasionally you need to swap them out.

 

[GoodShit97]

That's one model and the price is pretty decent. Mine is only a 16 hole cloner. 21 holes would have been a better choice for me. My only concern is those aerator nozzles plug up over time. If you were to purchase it, also purchase a small bag of extra 360 degree spray nozzles. The nozzles are difficult to uplug and occasionally you need to swap them out.

Thanks man.
Ill prolly buy that and the extra nozzles in 2 weeks hopefully. I never really liked this plug cloner thing anyway but im water retarded so im gonna need some help from yall when/if i get an aero cloner lol.

 

[growsinse79]

Yeah, im trying to get to that sweet spot lol.
45 is too low and 90% seens too high now
Ive never had so many issues cloning.

I haven't either, but I am now. In my case it's the dry air. 3 weeks and I'm barely getting roots and look like shit. Usually 2 weeks and they're growing.
I took the lids off and put a fan blowing across a bowl of water now and turned exhaust off.

 

[GoodShit97]

I haven't either, but I am now. In my case it's the dry air. 3 weeks and I'm barely getting roots and look like shit. Usually 2 weeks and they're growing.
I took the lids off and put a fan blowing across a bowl of water now and turned exhaust off.

I guess its just a rough time of year for everyone lol.
Its been this since like November for me lol.

 

[steamroller]

It all about the humidity IMO.
The cold does not help but it is difficult to keep the RH in range for a cutting with no roots.
Clip 1/2 of each leaf off and do your promix in one of the tents under other plants for shade.

 

[Bandit420]

I know aero cloners are great, but man im dumber than the dumbest mofo there is and id fuck up an aero cloner quicker than you can snap your fingers. I can guarantee you that. I cant even manage a fish tank man.

Right now its 74° and 79% humidity, all leaves are droopy and sad.

Just gonna cut new ones and stick them in solo cups of promix in my 3x3, that has never failed me before.

Humble brag brother but I'm a fucking witch when it comes to aerocloning. I'll set roots on a popsicle stick my game is that on point





We can get to that later but my little secret is less is more.

On your cuts there it looks like an aneurysm choked off the cutting killing it and there's ways to prevent that.

So when I cut the branch I'm wanting two nodes above the surface and one or two nodes below.
The nodes below should be cut as close to the stalk as possible. Once that leaf stem is removed and under water, roots will grow from that cut like in my pic above. Basically roots should pop from every cut on the stem.

When aneurysms are an issue make the cuts under water to prevent air going up the stem.
So you would remove the branch from the mom and hold the cut end and two nodes under water. Cut the stem again at a 45 degree angle and cut those two leaves off. Pull the cutting from the water, dip in cloning gel, and insert into the plug.

Some people cut tips off leaves, I do not. Some people use domes and mist, I do not but that's not needed in aerocloning and is more for trays and plug style cloning as is cloning gel.
Cloning gel is not needed in aerocloning. Diluted Clonex or similar product in the water is all that's needed in aero.

I like warm water for fast results but it must be kept moving, aerated, or changed out daily. I prefer water in the low 80s but I've set roots in 90 degree water as well. Stagnant water is a clone killer.

More importantly for me other than cut tips, temps, and products, is where the cutting came from off the mom.
Lower branches being ideal rather than fresh top growth along with precise cuts, good water, and as strange as this sounds...confidence.
Confidence or as I call it, mojo, is better than any cloning potion or gel out there Brother. Confidence alone has got me roots in just a glass of tap water and changing it out every day. I had so much confidence in my last round of cloning I had all but one nozzle clogged and not working and my pump fell over a time or two but I still set roots on all slips in less than 10 days. If those nozzles were not clogged it probably woulda been 8 days. Confidence goes a very long ways in the cloning game so when your confident in the cuts you made and where the slip came from all the other factors are more or less simply preferences.

 

[moe.red]

I guess its just a rough time of year for everyone lol.
Its been this since like November for me lol.

I just did 15 seedlings in my fog cloner. Everything was perfect except temp. They took twice as long as what I am used to because of this cold snap. And I have active humidification.

Nearly worst case scenario for starting plants right now. There is a reason farmers don't plant in the winter

What I really don't like is your fans seem fine, damage is all localized to new growth. I hope this is just environmental, but I'm starting to wonder if there is not something else going on as well. Generally I would expect the fans to suffer as well...

 

[Rootsruler]

I'm no clone expert by any stretch but I try and take cuts with at least 3 nodes. Like @Bandit420 , I trim off the bottom node as close to the stem as I can and plant it in the dirt. One of the things I do to keep air from getting in the cut is to prep a glass of water and when I make my cuts they go straight into the water. If they go directly into dirt I dust them with some root powder or gel, poke a little hole where they're going and put some root gel/powder in the hole. I stick the cut in the hole and push the dirt around it so that it doesn't flop over. I also trim back the leaves to at minimum half to reduce their attempts to photosynthesize.

Broscience alert!!!!

Bandit420 may be on to something that I've thought about for a while. Taking cuts from the bottom of the plant may give you a slight edge in success. My thinking is the plant sends hormones and chemicals to where the plant needs them the most. This would mean that branches at the top that are in full photosynthesis due to the high light exposure will have more of those hormones and chemicals it uses to keep up with the photosynthesis occurring. When you take a cut from the top the cut will be full of these hormones and chemicals and will continue to try and photosynthesize after you've removed it from the plant as long as there are the hormones and chemicals present to do it.
Branches at the bottom aren't getting as much light so there aren't as many hormones and chemicals in the vascular system in that branch so the cut doesn't need to use up the hormones and chemicals before it can concentrate its energy into making roots.

There's probably something wrong that I'm missing in regard to the biological processes so I'd love some input into why I'm wrong so I can dispell that idea out of my head. If not it looks like Observer has another experiment on his hands!!!

@GoodShit97 - Can you build one of these?

 

[moe.red]

I hate to be contrarian.. but when doing tissue culture the absolute best place to take a clone is the apical meristem - the top.

I guess it boils down to your purpose and use for cloning.

If you are trying to get the healthiest part of the plant and avoid potential / suspected virus and bacterial pathogens, low on the plant is the no go zone. Also, the top where new growth is happening quickly is more highly concentrated in stem cells which more easily become redirected into root cells, especially with rooting hormones.

But they both work, just throwing that out there. If the plant is truly healthy and cloning is done right, it does not matter.

 

[Zen_seeker]

I use just the lid with holes but tried plugs before. I’d like a better foam down the road but this works. I cut a channel in the foam before using, to remove when roots form.

This is just a 30 minute prototype.

Dollar store has small but tall domes in spring that should fit on lid nicely with the raised top section.

 

[Bandit420]

You can see undeveloped and exposed root nubs at the base of any plant that has vegged for a while. The more wood like texture in the trunk, the more hormones and what not are in there to root.
Cuttings from that area of the plant usually don't wilt after cutting and are always the fastest to take root. Cutting from there also reduces the need for xtra hormone solutions or gels.

Cuts from fresh growth can and will take root but there will be a wilt shock and it does reduce the success rate and speed. Old growth I can set roots inside a week but fresh growth can take up to 20 days or more

Lots of plants do it too like for example here's my strawberry just begging to be cloned with these exposed root nubs. It's been growing for a while and wants to reproduce. Ganja pretty much does this too and you'll see it in the nether regions of old growth

 

[GoodShit97]

What I really don't like is your fans seem fine, damage is all localized to new growth. I hope this is just environmental, but I'm starting to wonder if there is not something else going on as well. Generally I would expect the fans to suffer as well...

Its gotta be the environment or plugs im using because i got new plugs this time and have had nothing but issues with these ones.

Its definitely not bugs i know for a fact. Everything is super clean and healthy.

Here are the moms, not even an unhappy leaf in there man.
The fans eventually end up the same as the new growth but once i see the new growth browning i toss em before they mold/rot causing further issues.
Cloner always gets cleaned before and after using it so its always clean. I soak my scissors and knife in straight 91% iso for 5 mins before doing anything and in between strains.

Everything is kept wicked clean so im guessing its environmental all the way.

Gonna buy an aero cloner in 2 weeks when i get my check and hope this just goes away. Ive never liked this cloner dohicky anyway, i think its stupid.

 

[moe.red]

Its gotta be the environment or plugs im using because i got new plugs this time and have had nothing but issues with these ones.

Its definitely not bugs i know for a fact. Everything is super clean and healthy.

Here are the moms, not even an unhappy leaf in there man. View attachment 39764
The fans eventually end up the same as the new growth but once i see the new growth browning i toss em before they mold/rot causing further issues.
Cloner always gets cleaned before and after using it so its always clean. I soak my scissors and knife in straight 91% iso for 5 mins before doing anything and in between strains.

Everything is kept wicked clean so im guessing its environmental all the way.

Gonna buy an aero cloner in 2 weeks when i get my check and hope this just goes away. Ive never liked this cloner dohicky anyway, i think its stupid.

Good choice bro, they work good.

Couple of tips - you do not need to run the pump 24x7. It just adds heat. There is only so much wet you can make something.

If you have an old aquarium air pump adding an air stone to the res can make them more forgiving. O2 is your friend in a cloner. Otherwise you will want to change your water pretty often.

Best of luck!

 

[Rootsruler]

Good choice bro, they work good.

Couple of tips - you do not need to run the pump 24x7. It just adds heat. There is only so much wet you can make something.

If you have an old aquarium air pump adding an air stone to the res can make them more forgiving. O2 is your friend in a cloner. Otherwise you will want to change your water pretty often.

Best of luck!

I'm thinking of making a small DIY aero cloner like Zens. How long do I need to keep the pump spraying water over the clone? Air stone in the reservoir?