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give me a couple hours, i need to run some errands quick but i have answers for all this, and a brand new IR gun, so let me measure everything first accurately.
i promise you guys i am not cooking them with the lights. i know these lights well and the soil plants are on an even higher setting and closer to the leaves
give me a couple hours, i need to run some errands quick but i have answers for all this, and a brand new IR gun, so let me measure everything first accurately.
i promise you guys i am not cooking them with the lights. i know these lights well and the soil plants are on an even higher setting and closer to the leaves
Damn looks like new growth is still curling. Whatever it is it’s still there. But new growth does look better.
My vote is either stick a carbon filter in that res or swap the water out if your rain barrel is thawed out now. My best guess is chemical contamination in the water.
Stoney is not new on this light. But it is spectrum adjustable. Could try pulling the red out but we are picking flyshit out of pepper if this turns out to be this genetic cannot handle red photons.
I went thru the same list as you. Best I can tell all the typical stuff has been addressed or was never an issue.
Looking forward to the response on if the soil plants are showing the same thing.
Stoney is not new on this light. But it is spectrum adjustable. Could try pulling the red out but we are picking flyshit out of pepper if this turns out to be this genetic cannot handle red photons.
I went thru the same list as you. Best I can tell all the typical stuff has been addressed or was never an issue.
Looking forward to the response on if the soil plants are showing the same thing.
Maybe change the spectral ratio and see what the par is then?
Definitely can’t discount the chemical aspect only if it was in the water i feel we would see physical root issues. To me if its chemical its more likely airborne
Maybe change the spectral ratio and see what the par is then?
Definitely can’t discount the chemical aspect only if it was in the water i feel we would see physical root issues. To me if its chemical its more likely airborne
Personally am confident on light intensity. Too many factors point that way. I don’t mean numbers i mean plant responses. Look at the petiole and how purple they are from anthocyanins, the expression of heat stress in the leaves. The extreme upward angle of the petolie,
I very much understand that the numbers if accurately represented by the meter would be upper limits for that small of plants but the physical responses say otherwise
I think he backed the light away at least once. I’ll let him tell the story
I have not seen the soil plant(s). Don’t know what light they are under but if they look good and ppfd is similar we can cross off air contamination and light maybe.
it was like a dark build up from the nutes i think, i have small holes in the top of those elbows from an experiment early on in this grow that didn't pan out so i turned them upside down and there is a small weep hole in the top now, it was like a concentrate of nute gathering there. i don't think it was anything to worry about.
If there is contamination and it is still happening swapping out the res is not a long term solution. If the contamination is not happening any more it might help.
so i'm not a fan of IR guns, never had one that actually worked. i just bought this one last week, is an AC infinity measures all five things at once. i layed it in there for a while and opened the door and took these readings..
i can only assume these are my most current and correct parameters... (I guess idk) sory for the light photos that first plant is tough to see the screen.
left plant to right plant leaf temps are six degrees different from each other according to the POS gun. i bet i could aim it ten times in a row and give you ten different readings in a row... IR guns are fukin joke imo!
it is blowing directly on them, very light wind. it's on setting #1 of 10.. i only had it on to move some of the mist around a bit. i shot a video of it to show a better reality..
no nothing since about two weeks before i even started the seeds. both cabinets were left open after bombing/spraying/cleaning. and right now the intakes are almost closed to try and keep the heat in.
In short we are considering the water source possibly being contaminated when the room was bombed.
Stoney how does the same genetic in soil look now for compare?
a current shot of the soil plant... still don't know what that bleaching was.. might have been from the foop foliar spray. this one and the two rainbow kush were a almost a week behind so i sprayed a couple times.
i'm prepared for a change out. i mean if it comes back in a couple weeks there there's gotta be something leaching from the system. in which case would be total rebuild at that point.
Stoney is not new on this light. But it is spectrum adjustable. Could try pulling the red out but we are picking flyshit out of pepper if this turns out to be this genetic cannot handle red photons.
I went thru the same list as you. Best I can tell all the typical stuff has been addressed or was never an issue.
Looking forward to the response on if the soil plants are showing the same thing.
Maybe change the spectral ratio and see what the par is then?
Definitely can’t discount the chemical aspect only if it was in the water i feel we would see physical root issues. To me if its chemical its more likely airborne
i'm not opposed to trying this. normally i run a different spectrum with less red in them. i've run this straight spectrum before but that was then this is now.
there are more red diodes than any other in these light. most of the power comes from the red diodes.
i'm willing to try this. normally at this point in time i'm running just 40% red compared to the white and blue.. eg, 20r-50w-50b
so the soil plants are gen1 lights (two of them) the hydro side is one gen2... gen2 is said to be more grower friendly. i've been using them for a while now.
only a sheet of plywood seperate the two..
the soil plants have recently been topped for mainline. the three plants on the far right are the exact same age as the hydro plants, the rest are almost a week older...
the lights in the soil cab are at 50% right now and there are two lights.. 400w abouts...
i don't know how accurate my meter really is, i use it as a reference. at seedlings i don't want to get above 200. once i see five bladed leaves i keep it just under 600. once i flip i start to raise again.
just what i've done and no data to really show it just from gut growing..
Personally am confident on light intensity. Too many factors point that way. I don’t mean numbers i mean plant responses. Look at the petiole and how purple they are from anthocyanins, the expression of heat stress in the leaves. The extreme upward angle of the petolie,
I very much understand that the numbers if accurately represented by the meter would be upper limits for that small of plants but the physical responses say otherwise
i'll try lowering the intensity some more. i'll change the spectrum and give it a couple days... i honestly don't know what to say about the room numbers i just don't trust that IR gun. my controller data shows it more accurate i feel. this is data from the last week.. you can see the spikes once a day when i open the door. other than it's pretty steady. i have the leaf offset set to -4°
.
.
so with all that i'd love to hear your opinions and what i should do. i'm all for changing whatever to try anything...
couple other things.. i forgot to mention i now have my cloner in the room with them so i've been monitoring these and no similar signs at all. i would think this might be able to rule out any air toxic possibilities? and maybe suggest a solution issue?
these are the light settings i normally grow with 90% of the time. these are posted on the mfg's website.
so i lowered the red,, it's now what i use for seedlings that are above soil till they reach five bladed leaves.. i mean i ain't winning any beauty or speed contests this round so this can't hurt a single thing to try...
Leaf temp will vary the way you see. Being highest under the most light intensity. What was the temp you were getting on the leaves?
I would face the fan away from the plants. Just need air mixing in the room. Once they are bigger they will be able to better handle and likely need that to push air through the underside of the canopy.
Does your light meter read lux? This could help to determine if its full spectrum or not. I would guess not because it usually says it very clearly.
I still cannot help but feel its light and wind related.
I get dry crusty mostly white stuff where nute water has splashed and then dried. What is on the 90* - that seems pretty atypical to me. Especially since it never actually dries out there.
Big PH swings will cause things to fall out of solution but you have been stable.
Seems like you have tried everything but a water change at this point. Being that the other plants in the same space are not showing signs, it really leads me to the water you are feeding the plants. I don't actually know what is wrong, only that it is the most likely culprit (short of russet mites chewing on those plants)
Leaf temp will vary the way you see. Being highest under the most light intensity. What was the temp you were getting on the leaves?
I would face the fan away from the plants. Just need air mixing in the room. Once they are bigger they will be able to better handle and likely need that to push air through the underside of the canopy.
Does your light meter read lux? This could help to determine if its full spectrum or not. I would guess not because it usually says it very clearly.
I still cannot help but feel its light and wind related.
i'll give it a try. the lights are as low as i ever go and i turned the fan off. man i didn't realize hydro plants were so sensitive and divas!!! i wonder what they'll do when i put the second light in there i just got!!! haha
i just don;t believe its the light.. i will try though, i'm not above myself to say i was wrong if i am.. i have the light down low low and turned the fan completely off. i'll give it till the end of the week and keep an open mind about it.
i'll try my best to get a better leaf temp. i'll just shoot it like ten times and give ya the average of what i get. i don't get much time, by time i open the door and take the measurement the air temp and rh have already changed in two seconds, small cabinet big door..
i'll try... chances are i might smash the plastic ir gun though.
I get dry crusty mostly white stuff where nute water has splashed and then dried. What is on the 90* - that seems pretty atypical to me. Especially since it never actually dries out there.
Big PH swings will cause things to fall out of solution but you have been stable.
Seems like you have tried everything but a water change at this point. Being that the other plants in the same space are not showing signs, it really leads me to the water you are feeding the plants. I don't actually know what is wrong, only that it is the most likely culprit (short of russet mites chewing on those plants)
thats kind of how i saw it Moe, like a build up from nutes. kinda like whe ni have them mixed in my barrel and it leaves a thick stain ring where the level was at. it looks and fells just like that same build up.
i have a feeling you're looking at me like i'm crazy right now!! i didn't wipe it off so it's still there for further investigation.
i'll give it a try. the lights are as low as i ever go and i turned the fan off. man i didn't realize hydro plants were so sensitive and divas!!!
i just don;t believe its the light.. i will try though, i'm not above myself to say i was wrong if i am.. i have the light down low low and turned the fan completely off. i'll give it till the end of the week and keep an open mind about it.
i'll try my best to get a better leaf temp. i'll just shoot it like ten times and give ya the average of what i get. i don't get much time, by time i open the door and take the measurement the air temp and rh have already changed in two seconds, small cabinet big door..
i'll try... chances are i might smash the plastic ir gun though.
thats kind of how i saw it Moe, like a build up from nutes. kinda like whe ni have them mixed in my barrel and it leaves a thick stain ring where the level was at. it looks and fells just like that same build up.
i have a feeling you're looking at me like i'm crazy right now!! i didn't wipe it off so it's still there for further investigation.
sooo.. if i end up doing a rez dump, how should i go about cleaning the system? should i prepare with anything special?
alright, well they are growing faster than the soil plant. they may look ugly but they're bigger than the other one. and all three were born on the same day.
i'll give it a try. the lights are as low as i ever go and i turned the fan off. man i didn't realize hydro plants were so sensitive and divas!!! i wonder what they'll do when i put the second light in there i just got!!! haha
i just don;t believe its the light.. i will try though, i'm not above myself to say i was wrong if i am.. i have the light down low low and turned the fan completely off. i'll give it till the end of the week and keep an open mind about it.
i'll try my best to get a better leaf temp. i'll just shoot it like ten times and give ya the average of what i get. i don't get much time, by time i open the door and take the measurement the air temp and rh have already changed in two seconds, small cabinet big door..
i'll try... chances are i might smash the plastic ir gun though.
thats kind of how i saw it Moe, like a build up from nutes. kinda like whe ni have them mixed in my barrel and it leaves a thick stain ring where the level was at. it looks and fells just like that same build up.
i have a feeling you're looking at me like i'm crazy right now!! i didn't wipe it off so it's still there for further investigation.
sooo.. if i end up doing a rez dump, how should i go about cleaning the system? should i prepare with anything special?
When I tried silicium it made my res foam. It could make that brown stuff too I imagine. I don’t have 90s in my system to collect.
Could be from the fulvic.
Can you go thru your nute mix plans on the next res? Buffer?
Wether lot not to sterilize is a ? In my mind. I don’t see bad bacteria and hopefully you have good. I might leave that part alone personally. Just empty refill and balance. I’d add some enzymes if you got them and top off with Bennie’s.
When I tried silicium it made my res foam. It could make that brown stuff too I imagine. I don’t have 90s in my system to collect.
Could be from the fulvic.
Can you go thru your nute mix plans on the next res? Buffer?
Wether lot not to sterilize is a ? In my mind. I don’t see bad bacteria and hopefully you have good. I might leave that part alone personally. Just empty refill and balance. I’d add some enzymes if you got them and top off with Bennie’s.
i'd like to go over that with you guys.. so if i do a full change out my plan was:
25 gallons rain water 9ppm
agsil 16 mixed per mfg @ 2ml per gal added
also 10% KOH @ 1ml per gallon
the total buffer normally gets me to 60ppm
then immediately add enough ph down to get me just under 7.0
then after 15-30 minutes of mixing i add 25ml of calimagic
then i add nova grow, i haven't determined the amount yet. Gh chart suggests 4ml/gal for 800 ppm, i was thinking of going half that at just under 2ml/gal and aim for my entire solution to be 400ppm. i'm at 300ppm right now.
then the mr humic (whatever the recommended dose is, i don't remember off the top of my head)
and lastly 12ml of each orca and king crab
once all mixed i check the ph and adjust. most times it's real close or right at 5.8 once there i pump into the rez.
Wether lot not to sterilize is a ? In my mind. I don’t see bad bacteria and hopefully you have good. I might leave that part alone personally. Just empty refill and balance. I’d add some enzymes if you got them and top off with Bennie’s.
whether i do a change out or not my rez is about ready for a top off. so if this problem is environment then i need to at least start the top off measurements in a couple days.
.
so is it just me or do they look better today? seems to have more vigor?
if nothing i don't see any leaf curl at all on the newest set, first time thats happened... tune in tomorrow..
best i can tell my leaves are between 62°-64°f at that moment my air temp was 74.6. i aimed the gun near the air temp probe and it matched so i gotta trust it i guess. and air probe is calibrated and accurate.
is that much of an offset a concern? 10-12° delta seems a lot to me. i could try raising the light up and turning up the power. more heat same photons? or maybe just lower my rh down to 50%??
best i can tell my leaves are between 62°-64°f at that moment my air temp was 74.6. i aimed the gun near the air temp probe and it matched so i gotta trust it i guess. and air probe is calibrated and accurate.
is that much of an offset a concern? 10-12° delta seems a lot to me. i could try raising the light up and turning up the power. more heat same photons? or maybe just lower my rh down to 50%??
Offset is fine its the leaf temp overall thats low. That’s actually very low. It will reduce nutrient flow through the plant due to lower viscosity . That could be why they were having a hard time with the light. And the wind would be forcing more evaporation but it would be hard for the plant to pull enough water through.
Also wind will drive leaf temps down through evaporative cooling.
There are different settings on the IR gun makes sure its set to surface temp
What is the water temp?
Water temp greatly influences plant temps
Now im less worried about the light and more worried about plant temps and the wind causing the plant not to be able to handle the light. Although reducing it is important until this all get sorted.
agsil 16 mixed per mfg @ 2ml per gal added
also 10% KOH @ 1ml per gallon
the total buffer normally gets me to 60ppm
then immediately add enough ph down to get me just under 7.0
then after 15-30 minutes of mixing i add 25ml of calimagic
then i add nova grow, i haven't determined the amount yet. Gh chart suggests 4ml/gal for 800 ppm, i was thinking of going half that at just under 2ml/gal and aim for my entire solution to be 400ppm. i'm at 300ppm right now.
then the mr humic (whatever the recommended dose is, i don't remember off the top of my head)
I'm a little confused on the Agsil + KOH. Both will make PH go up. Can you help me with the thinking there?
On the nutes, I would definitely cut the recommendation in half or more. My personal opinion is lower PPM is better, especially with struggling or smaller plants, as long as you are in balance.
My mix -
Potassium silicate 20-30 minutes delay until next step
Calmag, 20-30 minutes delay until next step
Micro
Grow
Bloom
Fulvic, kelp
Ph adjust (very minimal, ph usually ends in 6.1 before adjusting)
Wait until ph stabilizes (5 minutes)
Then lastly Hydroguard
Should I be adjusting ph before calmag? Is something getting locked out the way I'm doing it?
My mix -
Potassium silicate 20-30 minutes delay until next step
Calmag, 20-30 minutes delay until next step
Micro
Grow
Bloom
Fulvic, kelp
Ph adjust (very minimal, ph usually ends in 6.1 before adjusting)
Wait until ph stabilizes (5 minutes)
Then lastly Hydroguard
Should I be adjusting ph before calmag? Is something getting locked out the way I'm doing it?
Add agsil. PH will shoot up. From what I have measured in RO it is north of 10.
If you add nutrients to this high PH solution and wait 5 minutes you will see all kinds of nute precipitation at the bottom of the beaker.
The corollary to this is if you add potassium silicate at full strength to a running res, the water will immediately get cloudy where you are pouring it in. This is precipitation forming. So don't do that - any agsil you add to a running system needs to be significantly dilute.
70.5, just double checked that as well. same in rez and both plant sites. just to be clear a few days ago when all this was going on i was second guessing all my instruments for accuracy and i had found that my water temp was off, so up until a few days ago my water temp was 74. i posted it a few days ago, i'll go back and look when.. but yeah they entire first three weeks it was 74. it is now 70.
end of week three. plants still growing, nutrient solution has been steady eddie!! no adjustments made since sunday night. in both the rez and the test gallon of future recipe have been steady as can be. i never once added any down to the test gallon, today the pH was 5.7. i wanted the bucket...
and also along with Aqua helping me in the beginning he taught me that as a buffer any combo of K works better as a team than any one single form of it will.
so i carefully add this to water and use it as a 10% KOH..
On the nutes, I would definitely cut the recommendation in half or more. My personal opinion is lower PPM is better, especially with struggling or smaller plants, as long as you are in balance.
i've done it this way because i had no bad habits when i started so i was taught the textbook way and just continue that way.
plus at the time Aqua was helping get my solution figured out and was making test batches that were sitting overnight so it was all taught i good practice.
Add agsil. PH will shoot up. From what I have measured in RO it is north of 10.
If you add nutrients to this high PH solution and wait 5 minutes you will see all kinds of nute precipitation at the bottom of the beaker.
The corollary to this is if you add potassium silicate at full strength to a running res, the water will immediately get cloudy where you are pouring it in. This is precipitation forming. So don't do that - any agsil you add to a running system needs to be significantly dilute.
i mix mine up in a 7.8% liquid solution as per mfg and then add this liquid to my water barrel. first i add half the water then the agsil liquid then the second half of the water. then ph down then i let it sit for 30 minutes before adding the cal mag.
Recipe for 7.8% Solution:
780: 1
148g : 1 L
560g : 1 gal
Mix 148 grams AgSil 16H into 1 liter water or 560 grams per gallon. Store in bottle or jar and shake well before use. (1 lb = 454 g). Use this 7.8% solution at 1/4 - 1/2 teaspoon per gallon water.
WARNING: Causes eye and skin irritation. Avoid contact with eyes, skin and clothing. Wash thoroughly after handling.
Never mix concentrated silica solutions with other concentrated fertilizers. It is best practice to make up the liquid solution first or add water prior to mixing the powder with other ingredients or nutrients.
When mixing, be sure to add water to the container first. Fill the container halfway with water and then add the Agsil before filling the rest of the way and then mixing thoroughly.
.
so far this has worked well for me at 2ml of 7.8% per gallon of water. then another ml per gallon of the KOH. this brings my water up to about 60-70 ppm
Add agsil. PH will shoot up. From what I have measured in RO it is north of 10.
If you add nutrients to this high PH solution and wait 5 minutes you will see all kinds of nute precipitation at the bottom of the beaker.
The corollary to this is if you add potassium silicate at full strength to a running res, the water will immediately get cloudy where you are pouring it in. This is precipitation forming. So don't do that - any agsil you add to a running system needs to be significantly dilute.
yes i double checked it's on the correct setting. just checked them again and same reading.. 60-62°
70.5, just double checked that as well. same in rez and both plant sites. just to be clear a few days ago when all this was going on i was second guessing all my instruments for accuracy and i had found that my water temp was off, so up until a few days ago my water temp was 74. i posted it a few days ago, i'll go back and look when.. but yeah they entire first three weeks it was 74. it is now 70.
end of week three. plants still growing, nutrient solution has been steady eddie!! no adjustments made since sunday night. in both the rez and the test gallon of future recipe have been steady as can be. i never once added any down to the test gallon, today the pH was 5.7. i wanted the bucket...
and also along with Aqua helping me in the beginning he taught me that as a buffer any combo of K works better as a team than any one single form of it will.
so i carefully add this to water and use it as a 10% KOH..
do you think if they get better i should just top off and not even do a change out?
very steady Moe, like right at 300ppm the entire time.
looks good today too... i'll get some new pics up in a bit..
no , no worries.. never a hijack hen learning!!!
i've done it this way because i had no bad habits when i started so i was taught the textbook way and just continue that way.
plus at the time Aqua was helping get my solution figured out and was making test batches that were sitting overnight so it was all taught i good practice.
i mix mine up in a 7.8% liquid solution as per mfg and then add this liquid to my water barrel. first i add half the water then the agsil liquid then the second half of the water. then ph down then i let it sit for 30 minutes before adding the cal mag.
Recipe for 7.8% Solution:
780: 1
148g : 1 L
560g : 1 gal
Mix 148 grams AgSil 16H into 1 liter water or 560 grams per gallon. Store in bottle or jar and shake well before use. (1 lb = 454 g). Use this 7.8% solution at 1/4 - 1/2 teaspoon per gallon water.
WARNING: Causes eye and skin irritation. Avoid contact with eyes, skin and clothing. Wash thoroughly after handling.
Never mix concentrated silica solutions with other concentrated fertilizers. It is best practice to make up the liquid solution first or add water prior to mixing the powder with other ingredients or nutrients.
When mixing, be sure to add water to the container first. Fill the container halfway with water and then add the Agsil before filling the rest of the way and then mixing thoroughly.
.
so far this has worked well for me at 2ml of 7.8% per gallon of water. then another ml per gallon of the KOH. this brings my water up to about 60-70 ppm
I remember this. Its because the agsil wasn’t buffering well enough.
Yeah of you can get your res temps 70-74. Reduce the wind to 0 to prevent evaporative cooling and raise air temps to around 80f then i really think your problems will end and they may well do fine with that amount of light
I really think the wind and cool plants temps are the root causes
it was that armor si that wasn't working well. once you had me get away from that it's been much better. ph is about the only thing i don't have an issue with anymore.
after i got more comfortable with it i made another test batch with that armor si and it was a total failure yet again.
Yeah of you can get your res temps 70-74. Reduce the wind to 0 to prevent evaporative cooling and raise air temps to around 80f then i really think your problems will end and they may well do fine with that amount of light
the fan has been off, well last night i put it back on setting 1 and pointed it up at the ceiling to move the humidity and heat around. no wind on the plants at all.
i just turned up the heat to 79 this should keep it right at 80.
and once they recover do you think i can start to add more light? just a little?
i mean man i just got another light to put in there!!!!! there's gonna be two of those 550's in there just like in my other cabinet!! not maybe, it's gonna happen. i already have the light...
i'm gonna need it for flowering, one is not gonna be enough.
i won't overdo it.. i understand. but there is a clear reason on why one plant is smaller than the other and thats the light placement. it's not centered correctly over the buckets and the left plant gets the sweet spot. soon they will both have a sweet spot!!!
i know you're shaking your head at me right now... hahaha
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