Great White Shark Attack

[Observer]

Ok I'm looking at this might of found one issue.

""You cannot add NPK numbers linearly unless each part contributes equal nitrogen mass, which they do not"

Sorry had to go do something

Brb

 

[Stoneyluv]

Fasting has become incredibly popular these days...

i wish i knew when they were going to all of the sudden stop eating and drinking out of nowhere.

what could cause them to stop eating so fast? i didn't change a thing.. my top off is a litte higher at 380 but they only drank a gallon or so in the past week, no way adding one gallon to the rez did that. they caused this by fasting. so what they hell made them irritable this time??

Ok I'm looking at this might of found one issue.

""You cannot add NPK numbers linearly unless each part contributes equal nitrogen mass, which they do not"

i'm not sure i understand your post... i didn't add any NPK. i was just monitoring,, that PPM rose from the plants, i didn't add that.

 

[steamroller]

What is your pH doing?
This chart would be my reference for correction.

It seems like you should be lowering the EC of the res.
Can this be as simple as removing X and replacing with just plain water?

Does it seem like they are doing the same thing as before now that no one could figure out?

 

[Bandit420]

i wish i knew when they were going to all of the sudden stop eating and drinking out of nowhere.

what could cause them to stop eating so fast? i didn't change a thing.. my top off is a litte higher at 380 but they only drank a gallon or so in the past week, no way adding one gallon to the rez did that. they caused this by fasting. so what they hell made them irritable this time??




i'm not sure i understand your post... i didn't add any NPK. i was just monitoring,, that PPM rose from the plants, i didn't add that.

I believe what you're experiencing are the results of the roller coaster you describe in this post and have just kinda piled on and gotten worse...

wow i didn't realize it's been so long since i posted here.. thought i responded to those messages above. i know i did in my head!! haha sorry Ob's!!! i didn't mean to leave ya hangin like that!!!! but yes, i fully agree with you on all that. i figured if i want the tops to lok a certain way that needs to start with the roots, not the other way around and after seeing the success Grump had with trimming his roots just the same as you did i thought well it sure can't hurt to try!!

i'm going to trim them back once more i thing. each time i do, the roots branch out some more and fill in the thin spots. almost just like the tops do when we prune and lst.

.
.

i've been still struggling with my nutes. specifically getting it where the plants are happy. i've been too low t start then i went too high and now i'm back in the middle again and the last 48 hours have been the best so far but still not right and still not what i want!!!

i torched them on the 13th with K poisoning not paying attention to my doser and i don't have any safety checks or alarms turned on and i overdosed my plants with ph up. and on top of that i realized my ec pen was off by 140ppms and calibrated it. n clue how long its been wrong either..

they've been recovering but still not happy and healthy plants!!! i'm seriously considering changing nutes. i'm currently using the trio and all three. i think i'd like to try the lucas formula where i just use two of the three parts and just never use the green veg nutes part of them. the ratios are so much easier to hit and adjust. it's said that lucas is better for those using tap water like me and not RO, so maybe this will be more stable for me.

my other option is to go back to the nova stuff.. sicky and brown but worked.. i also have some jacks nutes from a decade ago.. not sure what to do.. right now i'm on trio and calmag at 350ppms. the past 48 have been the best yet so i'll let it ride till it's not working and if that only last a couple days i'll prolly shoot for lucas formula..

my rollercoaster mess....

View attachment 120871

the plants...

View attachment 120868

View attachment 120869

View attachment 120870

thoughts? concerns? advice?

i really felt confident starting out a couple weeks ago and now i just feel like a lost puppy yet once again..

.
.



i'm trying man... this stuff is so humbling!!!!!!!!!!!! most of the time if just makes my brain hurt, the rest of the time it makes my wallet hurt!!! haha

just wish i understood even a tiny bit of the chemistry so that i had a starting point to even learn but i'm just throwing darts for past year and half and honestly makes me feel stupid that i can't figure it out!

i don't know, if i can't get it straight here in a couple days i'm gonna try throwing more expensive darts and see if that helps.

for some reason i really believe it has to do with this. i just don't have enough times under my belt to try enough things to narrow it down yet. i know all the things i have eliminated and just keep trying new things each time.

so much seems to point at too much bubble (co2 poison) but i have checked and i'm not out of bounds or anywhere near that.



i wouldn't sweat it too much, i'm not... i really believe they're about to grow out of it any day now.. and if not, hey i still have all the clones yet!!! hahaha

View attachment 120882View attachment 120883

been giving them the exact same solution from my top off barrel.. just dip in a beaker and pour it into a tray with a heat mat under it. i don't ph anything with these clones... nothing.. pour and ignore!!!

kinda like my neighbors plant... yep, i still got it!!! ahahahaha he says this weekend he's gonna take it. i actually believe him this time though. see his wife is going out to CA to visit her kids and he's staying at home with the dogs so i think he's gonna put up a tent and put the plant in and do it all while his wife is away so she can't say no.. what;s she gonna do make him throw out a four foot plant,, no way!!! i think it's slick!! i'll help him!! hahahaha

things a monster though... not bad for a 200 watt CLW at only 50%!!!!!!!!!! no joke and i'm not kidding!!!! 100 watts of osram diodes kicking serious ass!!

View attachment 120881

and i have this to look forward to... a great white shark i have in flower right now.. i want a full table scrog full!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

View attachment 120884



man it goes deeper than that... i know i'm silly in thinking this but i'm gonna be honest i feel a little like the kiss of death. Aqua helped me a bunch one on one and left right after that. like literally days after.. then Moe helped me a ton one on one for a while and then left promptly..

please don't help me too much man... i really like having you here and don't want you to leave too!!!!!



not sure exactly what you mean but my mixing regiment has been:

fill barrel with water (about 40-50ppms, i call it 50) or rain water at 0ppms. since it's winter i'd like to use my tap water at 50ppm

so, 1. fill barrel with water
2. add buffer and then reduce ph to 7.0 to eliminate any precipitation.
3. add cal/mag
4. add floramicro
5. add florabloom
6. add floragrow
7. mr Fulvic
8. great white or Orca

but this very last time i skipped step 2. i figured if i was adding up all the time why even start with a bunch to begin with if it's not buffering anything anyway. i've been using Balance as buffer though before that.

i'd like to add rapid start but i'd just be wasting it right now with all the dumping and diluting i'm doing so i'm not going to use it until i know i have a handle on this.

I've stayed on the outside watching and don't wanna step on any toes but I'd give a different go at this recipe....
Fill barrel with water
Add the nutes in prescribed order by GH.
Do not add Mr. Fulvic or GW or Orca. Keep it 100% synthetic at this stage. Maybe not sterile but definitely synthetic

Let it all mix for about an hour and then check and adjust the pH little by little to the desired range. The goal is to use as little adjuster/buffer as possible and only use a single direction, never chasing it up and down. Give about 15 minutes with pump running between the adjustments to make sure all is mixed well.

IDK if that will work for you but it works great for me. Personally, adjusters used in quantity like what you do have cause havoc with the chemistry for me which is why I'm so reluctant to use them

 

[Observer]

i wish i knew when they were going to all of the sudden stop eating and drinking out of nowhere.

what could cause them to stop eating so fast? i didn't change a thing.. my top off is a litte higher at 380 but they only drank a gallon or so in the past week, no way adding one gallon to the rez did that. they caused this by fasting. so what they hell made them irritable this time??




i'm not sure i understand your post... i didn't add any NPK. i was just monitoring,, that PPM rose from the plants, i didn't add that.

i wish i knew when they were going to all of the sudden stop eating and drinking out of nowhere.

what could cause them to stop eating so fast? i didn't change a thing.. my top off is a litte higher at 380 but they only drank a gallon or so in the past week, no way adding one gallon to the rez did that. they caused this by fasting. so what they hell made them irritable this time??




i'm not sure i understand your post... i didn't add any NPK. i was just monitoring,, that PPM rose from the plants, i didn't add that.

No no no

The context about adding up the ratio maths between the nutrient bottles.

Not actually adding npk to the res

I think alot of things get lost in context

We forget

It's okay

I just wanna help and learn and assess the scenario and see if there's anything we are understanding wrong or not interpreting the data "correctly"

 

[GrumpAzz]

what could cause them to stop eating so fast? i didn't change a thing.. my top off is a litte higher at 380 but they only drank a gallon or so in the past week, no way adding one gallon to the rez did that. they caused this by fasting. so what they hell made them irritable this time??

So hear me out cuz I'm talking out of my ass but... ratios

If they aren't eating but still drinking, the ppm will rise regardless of the top-off ppm. Yeah you're putting 380 in, but it's going into an increasingly concentrating solution. That make sense?

I think if you can dial in the ratios, you'll solve your swings. That's goona take time and water though.

The goal is to use as little adjuster/buffer as possible and only use a single direction, never chasing it up and down.

I think I disagree on this part. I'm of the opinion that the more of a buffer you have, the better. It'll stay stable longer by being less affected but the plant's nutrient uptake. It's really hard to overdo it with a silicate additive and the amount of Down it takes to bring it back is negligible, barely adding ppm at all.

If you're relying on the nutes to keep the water around 5.8, it's not gonna work for long. I'd think it could work in an ideal situation where you're giving your plants the perfect ratios and concetration while topping off with the same exact water. It's hard to dial in the ppm to perfect though, so it'll slowly climb as the plants uptake nutrients and leave water behind. Using a buffer gives you quite a bit of breathing room. That all came out of my ass though, if you know what i mean.

If going without works then fuck yeah. I go without halfway through flower but they drink a ton of water and res changes happen more frequently, plus they no longer need the silicate.

 

[Bandit420]

So hear me out cuz I'm talking out of my ass but... ratios

If they aren't eating but still drinking, the ppm will rise regardless of the top-off ppm. Yeah you're putting 380 in, but it's going into an increasingly concentrating solution. That makesense?

I think if you can dial in the ratios, you'll solve your swings. That's goona take time and water though.


I think I disagree on this part. I'm of the opinion that the more of a buffer you have, the better. It'll stay stable longer by being less affected but the plant's nutrient uptake. It's really hard to overdo it with a silicate additive and the amount of Down it takes to bring it back is negligible, barely adding ppm at all.

If you're relying on the nutes to keep the water around 5.8, it's not gonna work for long. I'd think it could work in an ideal situation where you're giving your plants the perfect ratios and concetration while topping off with the same exact water. It's hard to dial in the ppm to perfect though, so it'll slowly climb as the water uptakes nutrients and leaves water behind. Using a buffer gives you quite a bit of breathing room. That all came out of my ass though, if you know what i mean.

If going without works then fuck yeah. I go with halfway through flower but they drink a ton of water and res changes happen more frequently, plus they no longer need the silicate.

Yeah I hear ya which is why I didn't wanna step on toes because I see it work for y'all.
It's just pretty much the exact opposite of what I was taught so I've never heard of it or seen it done until I got on this forum.

 

[steamroller]

My understanding of water as a fish breeder that manipulated water for money.
The duration a buffer works depends on the carbonate hardness [KH] of the water. Not the amount you install.
If the KH is low then a small amount will work efficiently. It will shift the water and hold it steady for a longer time.
If the KH is high then you will need a higher amount of buffers that only last a short time.
That is what KH does.
Generally speaking water sources with high KH are not easily or efficiently buffered regardless of amount used.

 

[GrumpAzz]

Yeah I hear ya which is why I didn't wanna step on toes because I see it work for y'all.
It's just pretty much the exact opposite of what I was taught so I've never heard of it or seen it done until I got on this forum.

Yeah and i only know what I've learned here from Moe and even then, I've barely scratched the surface of hydro.

For what it's worth.. i ping-ponged a lot when I was using GH nutes. Granted, I was a total newb and was mixing my own Agsil buffer. I just assumed bad ratios and decided on powdered nutes for a bit, thinking by gram was gonna be way more accurate than by mL in my beakers.

Stoney has a hydro gremlin and needs to put a little to Army man somewhere to ward 'em off. Works like a decoy owl does for your chickens. Do they make old school Army men but like Scuba dudes? Sick the SEALs on those bastards

 

[GrumpAzz]

Oh yeah.. Sick these dudes on them gremlins

 

[Costanza]

they're still growing... kinda steady.. but still not correct. only i could make two clones grow different sizes!!! haha oh well..

i think i still need to lower the EC another .1 or .2....

View attachment 121357

 

[Observer]

Ok I'm looking at this might of found one issue.

""You cannot add NPK numbers linearly unless each part contributes equal nitrogen mass, which they do not"

Hmm.

Ok I'm looking at this might of found one issue.

""You cannot add NPK numbers linearly unless each part contributes equal nitrogen mass, which they do not"

Try this?

Too much Ca + K, not enough effective N
(This tracks with your potassium toxicity)

Fix: cut Cal/Mag in half, shift GH Trio slightly toward Grow, less Bloom.

See if that changes the plant health patterns.

Besides a ratio problem, which I think it is, but if it's not, it could be a contamination/root zone issue.

I won't know until we validate changing ratios, process of Elimination, In that current environment, under that current photonic spectrum/DLI.

I think it's the NpK ratio fucking you and the ratio math might be off?

"You cannot add NPK numbers linearly unless each part contributes EQUAL NITROGEN MASS, which they do not"

20-8-12 is what you think its adding up to, but im seeing that it's adding up to -->

~9–10 N : 4–5 P : 8–9 K

You mentioned a possible K toxicity earlier, which tracks with that above actual ratio.

The N > K ratio is fucked lol, the K is too high relative to N demand at this stage, it is Out of Balance.

~10N 5P 9K might be the actual ratio, not 20-8-12.

Maybe that's the issue?
Adjust & Observe

I'm no pro on ratio balances but it doesn't sound right to my "intuition"?

Just trying to help and solve a problem, I could be wrong, but Process of Elimination route to solve this.

Thanksya.

 

[Observer]

Too much calcium and potassium is antagonistic to nutrient uptake.


I think your pH buffer is also part-potassium?

If so, maybe that's also/ is or what contributed to the potassium toxicity or atagonism?

Oooo....and that's why the plant is trying so hard to adjust its root zone....but you are always automatically dosing 5.8 which is fine?......but because of the above variables....it's causing an issue?

Brainstorming....

 

[Stoneyluv]

What is your pH doing?

a little history.. last week on monday the 15th i set the doser to monitor only and not control. I check the ph every night at 1am, when it is high or low it is only .1 change so within acceptable limit from what i understand.

so on monday the 15th, i reduced the ppm from 460 to 350. the 17th.18th, and 19th the ph rose each day, and each day i manually added 1ml of down to bring it to 5.8. on the 20th the ph never moved. all this time the ppms stayed in the 350-360 spot. on sunday the 21st the ph went down for the very first time, ppms were still 360. i wasn't worried, instead of manually adding ph up i just set the doser to control and let it add the ph up slowly. i felt on top of the world at this point.. they were growing and had drank about 1.5 gallons since the 15th. felt like i knew what i was doing.

so this is where i added Rapid Start.. ( i forgot this ) did i fuck it all up by adding rapid start? after adding the rapid start the ph went down .2 but the ppms didn't change. i again just left the doser fix it and went to bed.

on monday the ppms were up to 380 flashing 390, plants were all burnt.. i even wrote wtf?? on the day!! haha the ph was 5.9 once again, i lowered it.

tonight at 9 pm the ppms were up to 390 flashing 400. and the ph was again 5.9. so i took out eight gallons and added water. the ppms are now at 300 the doser is turned off and i also turned off the top off

This chart would be my reference for correction.

i use these charts like bibles because i have nothing else to go by. but to be honest they never work for me... the top one you posted Grump gave me and Smoke gave me the other one.

It seems like you should be lowering the EC of the res.
Can this be as simple as removing X and replacing with just plain water?

i sure hope so because thats what i've been doing all this time.

Does it seem like they are doing the same thing as before now that no one could figure out?

yes sir, 100% i'm sure of it. i never did stop it, just been able to work around and deal with it. at some point last grow they got so big ad so much root mass they just managed the water themselves and i just paid attention to the ppms and adjusted that way. seemed to work well so i tried to do the same thing here but these aren't reacting the same way. i bet if these were seedlings they wouldn't make it but these are big enough that they'll survive once i get the solution low enough.

I believe what you're experiencing are the results of the roller coaster you describe in this post and have just kinda piled on and gotten worse...

yes sir, amplified but seems to be the same issue. but just when i say noooo my ph never climbs, for the past week it climbed. i can't win, makes a liar of me every time!!!

I've stayed on the outside watching and don't wanna step on any toes but I'd give a different go at this recipe....
Fill barrel with water
Add the nutes in prescribed order by GH.
Do not add Mr. Fulvic or GW or Orca. Keep it 100% synthetic at this stage. Maybe not sterile but definitely synthetic

this is how i mix them i believe.. i use my white mixing barrel, fill it with plain water. add calmag-stir-add trio.. i then add this to my rez. i don't add mr fulvic or bennies till the next day or two to three days after. once i see that the trio strength i added is working that when i add the extras. if i add them in the beginning i just end up pumping them out in the yard anyway so i wait till i know i'm rolling with this strength.

it's why i waited an entre week this time to add the rapid start. and now i had to pump eight gallons out already!!

Let it all mix for about an hour and then check and adjust the pH little by little to the desired range. The goal is to use as little adjuster/buffer as possible and only use a single direction, never chasing it up and down. Give about 15 minutes with pump running between the adjustments to make sure all is mixed well.

i rarely over correct. i try to mix my nutes when i have a bunch of stuff to do with the soil plants so i can bounce back and forth and gve the mixing time. sometimes it takes me an hour to correct the ph i add it so slow.

i swear i have all good habits!!! don't even dip my pens in the rez ever!!!!

IDK if that will work for you but it works great for me. Personally, adjusters used in quantity like what you do have cause havoc with the chemistry for me which is why I'm so reluctant to use them

i understand man, i don't want to add the up like that at that kind of volume. but if i don't use it my ph will be so low it would kill the plants so i need to add it. well really the doser needs to add it... and thats really another problem here right.. i mean i "should" have the alarms and safety settings turned on so this very thing can't happen. but when an alrm goes off it stops doseing and just monitors...

No no no

The context about adding up the ratio maths between the nutrient bottles.

Not actually adding npk to the res

I think alot of things get lost in context

We forget

It's okay

I just wanna help and learn and assess the scenario and see if there's anything we are understanding wrong or not interpreting the data "correctly"

you mean the measurements? it can be tough sometimes just like Grump said. plus GH doesn't offer an amount low enough in ppm. when i use the very lowest ratio they list i get 560ppms.. so what i do is say that i only want to mix it for ten gallons instead of 25 and add that. this is okay that i do it that way right?

So hear me out cuz I'm talking out of my ass but... ratios

If they aren't eating but still drinking, the ppm will rise regardless of the top-off ppm. Yeah you're putting 380 in, but it's going into an increasingly concentrating solution. That make sense?

I think if you can dial in the ratios, you'll solve your swings. That's goona take time and water though.

yes that makes perfect sense and we're on the same page with that. not only is it concentrating it but there is no way it is concentrating at the same even ratio i started out at.

this is where i weary of just watering down solution that has been rising for a week because i'm just watering down the wrong ratio.

you're right though it is tough measuring with beakers and syringes.. the math will say 48 my eye says maybe 46, maybe 49... and when i'm trying to measure out such a weak solution every ml matter i assume...

sounds like it could be a problem, not sure that it's thee problem but thee problem could be compounded problems that don't seem like much to me but really are.

but how do i fix this? how do i measure better? you think i could document weight and measure it that way?

My understanding of water as a fish breeder that manipulated water for money.
The duration a buffer works depends on the carbonate hardness [KH] of the water. Not the amount you install.
If the KH is low then a small amount will work efficiently. It will shift the water and hold it steady for a longer time.
If the KH is high then you will need a higher amount of buffers that only last a short time.
That is what KH does.
Generally speaking water sources with high KH are not easily or efficiently buffered regardless of amount used.

so how does one know their KH? asking for a friend...

Oh yeah.. Sick these dudes on them gremlins
View attachment 121435

i can sure as hell print some out if nothing else!!!!!! i need some sort of defense, i was thinking of putting yoda in there!!!

View attachment 121437

thats what i feel like!!! hahahaha

i mean zoom in y'all... the left plant has three bladed leaves and everything.... how did i manage to screw that one up!!!!! they both started with five!!! left one is back to five again now though..

^^could this maybe be a clue as to what i'm doing wrong?

.
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also, another question for all you guys:

what caused red stem tops and red leaf veins? i have this when my problem is at it's peak.

.

and.. my roots didn't look the best tonight, first time i looked in while... the smell good and fresh but have a yellow tinge to them. maybe i should add some enzymes... they can't hurt the situation i assume.

oo much Ca + K, not enough effective N
(This tracks with your potassium toxicity)

i'm listening...

Fix: cut Cal/Mag in half, shift GH Trio slightly toward Grow, less Bloom.

so here's an issue.. i believe i have real idea just how much cal mag i even have anymore.. after diluting so many times i'm also diluting the calimagic and adding some back with my hard well water.

Besides a ratio problem, which I think it is, but if it's not, it could be a contamination/root zone issue.

yeah those roots don't look the best right now huh??

I think it's the NpK ratio fucking you and the ratio math might be off?

"You cannot add NPK numbers linearly unless each part contributes EQUAL NITROGEN MASS, which they do not"

20-8-12 is what you think its adding up to, but im seeing that it's adding up to -->

~9–10 N : 4–5 P : 8–9 K

You mentioned a possible K toxicity earlier, which tracks with that above actual ratio.

The N > K ratio is fucked lol, the K is too high relative to N demand at this stage, it is Out of Balance.

~10N 5P 9K might be the actual ratio, not 20-8-12.

Maybe that's the issue?

so help me out, i don't really know where to start...

this is what i have...



honestly, i understand this more than that...



i have no clue as to where to even start anymore. i tried low, they hate it! i tried high, they hate it!!! i'm in the middle, now they hate that!!

help me figure out what to mix and i'll dump it all out and try something new right away! anything is better than what i'm doing at this point and i'm willing to try!

Adjust & Observe

I'm no pro on ratio balances but it doesn't sound right to my "intuition"?

Just trying to help and solve a problem, I could be wrong, but Process of Elimination route to solve this.

Thanksya.

yeah i get it... it's been a process of elimination for loooooooong time now.. i still have doubts in my design. i always doubt something that my hands were on when something doesn't work. it's always the best place to start.

could the wrong recirculation rate cause this kind of ciaos? my guess would be no but i figured i'd ask...

Too much calcium and potassium is antagonistic to nutrient uptake.


I think your pH buffer is also part-potassium?

If so, maybe that's also/ is or what contributed to the potassium toxicity or atagonism?

Oooo....and that's why the plant is trying so hard to adjust its root zone....but you are always automatically dosing 5.8 which is fine.....but because of the above variables....it's causing an issue?

Brainstorming....

not using a buffer at all this time... after i thought i poisoned them i thought well why add it to start with if it's not working and just adding more anyway so i skipped the buffer this batch... i think this is why i started seeing the ph rise trend... maybe?

 

[Observer]

a little history.. last week on monday the 15th i set the doser to monitor only and not control. I check the ph every night at 1am, when it is high or low it is only .1 change so within acceptable limit from what i understand.

so on monday the 15th, i reduced the ppm from 460 to 350. the 17th.18th, and 19th the ph rose each day, and each day i manually added 1ml of down to bring it to 5.8. on the 20th the ph never moved. all this time the ppms stayed in the 350-360 spot. on sunday the 21st the ph went down for the very first time, ppms were still 360. i wasn't worried, instead of manually adding ph up i just set the doser to control and let it add the ph up slowly. i felt on top of the world at this point.. they were growing and had drank about 1.5 gallons since the 15th. felt like i knew what i was doing.

so this is where i added Rapid Start.. ( i forgot this ) did i fuck it all up by adding rapid start? after adding the rapid start the ph went down .2 but the ppms didn't change. i again just left the doser fix it and went to bed.

on monday the ppms were up to 380 flashing 390, plants were all burnt.. i even wrote wtf?? on the day!! haha the ph was 5.9 once again, i lowered it.

tonight at 9 pm the ppms were up to 390 flashing 400. and the ph was again 5.9. so i took out eight gallons and added water. the ppms are now at 300 the doser is turned off and i also turned off the top off


View attachment 121451




i use these charts like bibles because i have nothing else to go by. but to be honest they never work for me... the top one you posted Grump gave me and Smoke gave me the other one.

View attachment 121456



i sure hope so because thats what i've been doing all this time.



yes sir, 100% i'm sure of it. i never did stop it, just been able to work around and deal with it. at some point last grow they got so big ad so much root mass they just managed the water themselves and i just paid attention to the ppms and adjusted that way. seemed to work well so i tried to do the same thing here but these aren't reacting the same way. i bet if these were seedlings they wouldn't make it but these are big enough that they'll survive once i get the solution low enough.



yes sir, amplified but seems to be the same issue. but just when i say noooo my ph never climbs, for the past week it climbed. i can't win, makes a liar of me every time!!!



this is how i mix them i believe.. i use my white mixing barrel, fill it with plain water. add calmag-stir-add trio.. i then add this to my rez. i don't add mr fulvic or bennies till the next day or two to three days after. once i see that the trio strength i added is working that when i add the extras. if i add them in the beginning i just end up pumping them out in the yard anyway so i wait till i know i'm rolling with this strength.

it's why i waited an entre week this time to add the rapid start. and now i had to pump eight gallons out already!!



i rarely over correct. i try to mix my nutes when i have a bunch of stuff to do with the soil plants so i can bounce back and forth and gve the mixing time. sometimes it takes me an hour to correct the ph i add it so slow.

i swear i have all good habits!!! don't even dip my pens in the rez ever!!!!



i understand man, i don't want to add the up like that at that kind of volume. but if i don't use it my ph will be so low it would kill the plants so i need to add it. well really the doser needs to add it... and thats really another problem here right.. i mean i "should" have the alarms and safety settings turned on so this very thing can't happen. but when an alrm goes off it stops doseing and just monitors...



you mean the measurements? it can be tough sometimes just like Grump said. plus GH doesn't offer an amount low enough in ppm. when i use the very lowest ratio they list i get 560ppms.. so what i do is say that i only want to mix it for ten gallons instead of 25 and add that. this is okay that i do it that way right?



yes that makes perfect sense and we're on the same page with that. not only is it concentrating it but there is no way it is concentrating at the same even ratio i started out at.

this is where i weary of just watering down solution that has been rising for a week because i'm just watering down the wrong ratio.

you're right though it is tough measuring with beakers and syringes.. the math will say 48 my eye says maybe 46, maybe 49... and when i'm trying to measure out such a weak solution every ml matter i assume...

sounds like it could be a problem, not sure that it's thee problem but thee problem could be compounded problems that don't seem like much to me but really are.

but how do i fix this? how do i measure better? you think i could document weight and measure it that way?



so how does one know their KH? asking for a friend...


i can sure as hell print some out if nothing else!!!!!! i need some sort of defense, i was thinking of putting yoda in there!!!



thats what i feel like!!! hahahaha

i mean zoom in y'all... the left plant has three bladed leaves and everything.... how did i manage to screw that one up!!!!! they both started with five!!! left one is back to five again now though..

^^could this maybe be a clue as to what i'm doing wrong?

.
.

also, another question for all you guys:

what caused red stem tops and red leaf veins? i have this when my problem is at it's peak.

.

and.. my roots didn't look the best tonight, first time i looked in while... the smell good and fresh but have a yellow tinge to them. maybe i should add some enzymes... they can't hurt the situation i assume.

View attachment 121454View attachment 121455



i'm listening...



so here's an issue.. i believe i have real idea just how much cal mag i even have anymore.. after diluting so many times i'm also diluting the calimagic and adding some back with my hard well water.



yeah those roots don't look the best right now huh??



so help me out, i don't really know where to start...

this is what i have...

View attachment 121459

honestly, i understand this more than that...

View attachment 121458

i have no clue as to where to even start anymore. i tried low, they hate it! i tried high, they hate it!!! i'm in the middle, now they hate that!!

help me figure out what to mix and i'll dump it all out and try something new right away! anything is better than what i'm doing at this point and i'm willing to try!



yeah i get it... it's been a process of elimination for loooooooong time now.. i still have doubts in my design. i always doubt something that my hands were on when something doesn't work. it's always the best place to start.

could the wrong recirculation rate cause this kind of ciaos? my guess would be no but i figured i'd ask...



not using a buffer at all this time... after i thought i poisoned them i thought well why add it to start with if it's not working and just adding more anyway so i skipped the buffer this batch... i think this is why i started seeing the ph rise trend... maybe?

I'm gonna fuckin figure this out for the both of us bro.


I FUCKING HATE not being able to figure out and solve a problem.

Give me more time to go back all over this again....but I'm really starting to lean towards ratio/antagonisms, if not contamination.

Let me look at those roots some more.

Adding some enzymes should not hurt(?) Only benefit.

You don't have a DO probe do you? Just curious.

 

[Observer]

How does the root zone smell?

Wish I could just teleport there and see in person and work through it lol

 

[Observer]

Let your pH swing between 5.5-6.2 if it's not already, and lower e.c.

If youre at 350 ppm but the plants aren't uptaking it and it rose 390????
Which leads to a root uptake issue or maybe a lockout/antagonism.

Maybe go to 300, but your makeup of that 300 ppm, should mostly be nitrogen, with a little P and K and some Micronutrients.

 

[Observer]

Let.me familiarize my self more with GH trio.

I'm used to salts and making/mixing my own ratios.

I go heavy with N>relative to everything else, to keep a balance, In Veg.

I start seeds with a bloom mix, then go to a veg mix, which is npk, I call the flower mix, MPK. (Because we need/use less nitrogen in flower, and more phosphorous, monopotassium, calcium and micronutrients)

 

[Observer]

a little history.. last week on monday the 15th i set the doser to monitor only and not control. I check the ph every night at 1am, when it is high or low it is only .1 change so within acceptable limit from what i understand.

so on monday the 15th, i reduced the ppm from 460 to 350. the 17th.18th, and 19th the ph rose each day, and each day i manually added 1ml of down to bring it to 5.8. on the 20th the ph never moved. all this time the ppms stayed in the 350-360 spot. on sunday the 21st the ph went down for the very first time, ppms were still 360. i wasn't worried, instead of manually adding ph up i just set the doser to control and let it add the ph up slowly. i felt on top of the world at this point.. they were growing and had drank about 1.5 gallons since the 15th. felt like i knew what i was doing.

so this is where i added Rapid Start.. ( i forgot this ) did i fuck it all up by adding rapid start? after adding the rapid start the ph went down .2 but the ppms didn't change. i again just left the doser fix it and went to bed.

on monday the ppms were up to 380 flashing 390, plants were all burnt.. i even wrote wtf?? on the day!! haha the ph was 5.9 once again, i lowered it.

tonight at 9 pm the ppms were up to 390 flashing 400. and the ph was again 5.9. so i took out eight gallons and added water. the ppms are now at 300 the doser is turned off and i also turned off the top off


View attachment 121451




i use these charts like bibles because i have nothing else to go by. but to be honest they never work for me... the top one you posted Grump gave me and Smoke gave me the other one.

View attachment 121456



i sure hope so because thats what i've been doing all this time.



yes sir, 100% i'm sure of it. i never did stop it, just been able to work around and deal with it. at some point last grow they got so big ad so much root mass they just managed the water themselves and i just paid attention to the ppms and adjusted that way. seemed to work well so i tried to do the same thing here but these aren't reacting the same way. i bet if these were seedlings they wouldn't make it but these are big enough that they'll survive once i get the solution low enough.



yes sir, amplified but seems to be the same issue. but just when i say noooo my ph never climbs, for the past week it climbed. i can't win, makes a liar of me every time!!!



this is how i mix them i believe.. i use my white mixing barrel, fill it with plain water. add calmag-stir-add trio.. i then add this to my rez. i don't add mr fulvic or bennies till the next day or two to three days after. once i see that the trio strength i added is working that when i add the extras. if i add them in the beginning i just end up pumping them out in the yard anyway so i wait till i know i'm rolling with this strength.

it's why i waited an entre week this time to add the rapid start. and now i had to pump eight gallons out already!!



i rarely over correct. i try to mix my nutes when i have a bunch of stuff to do with the soil plants so i can bounce back and forth and gve the mixing time. sometimes it takes me an hour to correct the ph i add it so slow.

i swear i have all good habits!!! don't even dip my pens in the rez ever!!!!



i understand man, i don't want to add the up like that at that kind of volume. but if i don't use it my ph will be so low it would kill the plants so i need to add it. well really the doser needs to add it... and thats really another problem here right.. i mean i "should" have the alarms and safety settings turned on so this very thing can't happen. but when an alrm goes off it stops doseing and just monitors...



you mean the measurements? it can be tough sometimes just like Grump said. plus GH doesn't offer an amount low enough in ppm. when i use the very lowest ratio they list i get 560ppms.. so what i do is say that i only want to mix it for ten gallons instead of 25 and add that. this is okay that i do it that way right?



yes that makes perfect sense and we're on the same page with that. not only is it concentrating it but there is no way it is concentrating at the same even ratio i started out at.

this is where i weary of just watering down solution that has been rising for a week because i'm just watering down the wrong ratio.

you're right though it is tough measuring with beakers and syringes.. the math will say 48 my eye says maybe 46, maybe 49... and when i'm trying to measure out such a weak solution every ml matter i assume...

sounds like it could be a problem, not sure that it's thee problem but thee problem could be compounded problems that don't seem like much to me but really are.

but how do i fix this? how do i measure better? you think i could document weight and measure it that way?



so how does one know their KH? asking for a friend...


i can sure as hell print some out if nothing else!!!!!! i need some sort of defense, i was thinking of putting yoda in there!!!



thats what i feel like!!! hahahaha

i mean zoom in y'all... the left plant has three bladed leaves and everything.... how did i manage to screw that one up!!!!! they both started with five!!! left one is back to five again now though..

^^could this maybe be a clue as to what i'm doing wrong?

.
.

also, another question for all you guys:

what caused red stem tops and red leaf veins? i have this when my problem is at it's peak.

.

and.. my roots didn't look the best tonight, first time i looked in while... the smell good and fresh but have a yellow tinge to them. maybe i should add some enzymes... they can't hurt the situation i assume.

View attachment 121454View attachment 121455



i'm listening...



so here's an issue.. i believe i have real idea just how much cal mag i even have anymore.. after diluting so many times i'm also diluting the calimagic and adding some back with my hard well water.



yeah those roots don't look the best right now huh??



so help me out, i don't really know where to start...

this is what i have...

View attachment 121459

honestly, i understand this more than that...

View attachment 121458

i have no clue as to where to even start anymore. i tried low, they hate it! i tried high, they hate it!!! i'm in the middle, now they hate that!!

help me figure out what to mix and i'll dump it all out and try something new right away! anything is better than what i'm doing at this point and i'm willing to try!



yeah i get it... it's been a process of elimination for loooooooong time now.. i still have doubts in my design. i always doubt something that my hands were on when something doesn't work. it's always the best place to start.

could the wrong recirculation rate cause this kind of ciaos? my guess would be no but i figured i'd ask...



not using a buffer at all this time... after i thought i poisoned them i thought well why add it to start with if it's not working and just adding more anyway so i skipped the buffer this batch... i think this is why i started seeing the ph rise trend... maybe?

There is KH test strips or sensors.

 

[Zen_seeker]

Yeah and i only know what I've learned here from Moe and even then, I've barely scratched the surface of hydro.

For what it's worth.. i ping-ponged a lot when I was using GH nutes. Granted, I was a total newb and was mixing my own Agsil buffer. I just assumed bad ratios and decided on powdered nutes for a bit, thinking by gram was gonna be way more accurate than by mL in my beakers.

Stoney has a hydro gremlin and needs to put a little to Army man somewhere to ward 'em off. Works like a decoy owl does for your chickens. Do they make old school Army men but like Scuba dudes? Sick the SEALs on those bastards

Looks like you could print a couple.

 

[Observer]

a little history.. last week on monday the 15th i set the doser to monitor only and not control. I check the ph every night at 1am, when it is high or low it is only .1 change so within acceptable limit from what i understand.

so on monday the 15th, i reduced the ppm from 460 to 350. the 17th.18th, and 19th the ph rose each day, and each day i manually added 1ml of down to bring it to 5.8. on the 20th the ph never moved. all this time the ppms stayed in the 350-360 spot. on sunday the 21st the ph went down for the very first time, ppms were still 360. i wasn't worried, instead of manually adding ph up i just set the doser to control and let it add the ph up slowly. i felt on top of the world at this point.. they were growing and had drank about 1.5 gallons since the 15th. felt like i knew what i was doing.

so this is where i added Rapid Start.. ( i forgot this ) did i fuck it all up by adding rapid start? after adding the rapid start the ph went down .2 but the ppms didn't change. i again just left the doser fix it and went to bed.

on monday the ppms were up to 380 flashing 390, plants were all burnt.. i even wrote wtf?? on the day!! haha the ph was 5.9 once again, i lowered it.

tonight at 9 pm the ppms were up to 390 flashing 400. and the ph was again 5.9. so i took out eight gallons and added water. the ppms are now at 300 the doser is turned off and i also turned off the top off


View attachment 121451




i use these charts like bibles because i have nothing else to go by. but to be honest they never work for me... the top one you posted Grump gave me and Smoke gave me the other one.

View attachment 121456



i sure hope so because thats what i've been doing all this time.



yes sir, 100% i'm sure of it. i never did stop it, just been able to work around and deal with it. at some point last grow they got so big ad so much root mass they just managed the water themselves and i just paid attention to the ppms and adjusted that way. seemed to work well so i tried to do the same thing here but these aren't reacting the same way. i bet if these were seedlings they wouldn't make it but these are big enough that they'll survive once i get the solution low enough.



yes sir, amplified but seems to be the same issue. but just when i say noooo my ph never climbs, for the past week it climbed. i can't win, makes a liar of me every time!!!



this is how i mix them i believe.. i use my white mixing barrel, fill it with plain water. add calmag-stir-add trio.. i then add this to my rez. i don't add mr fulvic or bennies till the next day or two to three days after. once i see that the trio strength i added is working that when i add the extras. if i add them in the beginning i just end up pumping them out in the yard anyway so i wait till i know i'm rolling with this strength.

it's why i waited an entre week this time to add the rapid start. and now i had to pump eight gallons out already!!



i rarely over correct. i try to mix my nutes when i have a bunch of stuff to do with the soil plants so i can bounce back and forth and gve the mixing time. sometimes it takes me an hour to correct the ph i add it so slow.

i swear i have all good habits!!! don't even dip my pens in the rez ever!!!!



i understand man, i don't want to add the up like that at that kind of volume. but if i don't use it my ph will be so low it would kill the plants so i need to add it. well really the doser needs to add it... and thats really another problem here right.. i mean i "should" have the alarms and safety settings turned on so this very thing can't happen. but when an alrm goes off it stops doseing and just monitors...



you mean the measurements? it can be tough sometimes just like Grump said. plus GH doesn't offer an amount low enough in ppm. when i use the very lowest ratio they list i get 560ppms.. so what i do is say that i only want to mix it for ten gallons instead of 25 and add that. this is okay that i do it that way right?



yes that makes perfect sense and we're on the same page with that. not only is it concentrating it but there is no way it is concentrating at the same even ratio i started out at.

this is where i weary of just watering down solution that has been rising for a week because i'm just watering down the wrong ratio.

you're right though it is tough measuring with beakers and syringes.. the math will say 48 my eye says maybe 46, maybe 49... and when i'm trying to measure out such a weak solution every ml matter i assume...

sounds like it could be a problem, not sure that it's thee problem but thee problem could be compounded problems that don't seem like much to me but really are.

but how do i fix this? how do i measure better? you think i could document weight and measure it that way?



so how does one know their KH? asking for a friend...


i can sure as hell print some out if nothing else!!!!!! i need some sort of defense, i was thinking of putting yoda in there!!!



thats what i feel like!!! hahahaha

i mean zoom in y'all... the left plant has three bladed leaves and everything.... how did i manage to screw that one up!!!!! they both started with five!!! left one is back to five again now though..

^^could this maybe be a clue as to what i'm doing wrong?

.
.

also, another question for all you guys:

what caused red stem tops and red leaf veins? i have this when my problem is at it's peak.

.

and.. my roots didn't look the best tonight, first time i looked in while... the smell good and fresh but have a yellow tinge to them. maybe i should add some enzymes... they can't hurt the situation i assume.

View attachment 121454View attachment 121455



i'm listening...



so here's an issue.. i believe i have real idea just how much cal mag i even have anymore.. after diluting so many times i'm also diluting the calimagic and adding some back with my hard well water.



yeah those roots don't look the best right now huh??



so help me out, i don't really know where to start...

this is what i have...

View attachment 121459

honestly, i understand this more than that...

View attachment 121458

i have no clue as to where to even start anymore. i tried low, they hate it! i tried high, they hate it!!! i'm in the middle, now they hate that!!

help me figure out what to mix and i'll dump it all out and try something new right away! anything is better than what i'm doing at this point and i'm willing to try!



yeah i get it... it's been a process of elimination for loooooooong time now.. i still have doubts in my design. i always doubt something that my hands were on when something doesn't work. it's always the best place to start.

could the wrong recirculation rate cause this kind of ciaos? my guess would be no but i figured i'd ask...



not using a buffer at all this time... after i thought i poisoned them i thought well why add it to start with if it's not working and just adding more anyway so i skipped the buffer this batch... i think this is why i started seeing the ph rise trend... maybe?

""also, another question for all you guys:

""what caused red stem tops and red leaf veins? i have this when my problem is at it's peak.""

Not enough Phosphorus, OR the high Ca + K is interfering with the uptake.

 

[Observer]

I have high confidence now that you're ratios are Ca+K too got dayum high.

Lol

Needs more nitrogen relative to those elements.

 

[Observer]

I have high confidence now that you're ratios are Ca+K too got dayum high.

Lol

Needs more nitrogen relative to those elements.

One way to find out.

Completely change the ratios, fuck their chart, because the plants are clearly saying some different lol.

And fuck are we using 3 bottles or a 10 part nutrient system, cause fuck me, I gotta read lol.

 

[Stoneyluv]

I'm gonna fuckin figure this out for the both of us bro.


I FUCKING HATE not being able to figure out and solve a problem.

appreciate the help.

Give me more time to go back all over this again....but I'm really starting to lean towards ratio/antagonisms, if not contamination.

this would also back up why i didn't have an issue with the nova nutes, only one bottle. one ratio.

Let me look at those roots some more.

i got better pics..

Adding some enzymes should not hurt(?) Only benefit.

i'd add a little but if we're gonna dump the rez i'd rather wait.

You don't have a DO probe do you? Just curious.

i do but it doesn't work. i need some software that Moe Red made so i can calibrate it properly. i know it's off a little. i happen have a video date with the one and only mr Red this friday!!! if it's productive enough and we have some bullshit time i'll spring it on him and see what he says.. i don't think he has it anymore though and would have to recode it.. i'm not 100% sure but if i get the chance i'll ask..

How does the root zone smell?

Wish I could just teleport there and see in person and work through it lol

it smells okay, not wowzers but also not a foul smell.. to me they smell just like alfalfa sprouts they put out at a salad bar. i grow them on my kitchen counter and they remind me of that smell.

Looks like you could print a couple.
View attachment 121469

wow could you imagine all the supports needed for that?? wow!!! trees as tall as the guns!!!! hahaha

I have high confidence now that you're ratios are Ca+K too got dayum high.

Lol

Needs more nitrogen relative to those elements.

it wouldn't surprise me... i know i'm dayam high myself!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

One way to find out.

Completely change the ratios, fuck their chart, because the plants are clearly saying some different lol.

And fuck are we using 3 bottles or a 10 part nutrient system, cause fuck me, I gotta read lol.

you post fuckin fast!!!! and i type like secretary at like 30 words a minute!!!! hahahaha


yeah i'm down , lets make a new recipe!!!! what are your thoughts on that lucas formula??

Best Hydroponics Nutrients | Lucas Formula

Easiest nutrient schedule and grow guide for vegetation and flowering when using hydroponics, specifically deep water culture

hackingthegrow.com

 

[Observer]

appreciate the help.



this would also back up why i didn't have an issue with the nova nutes, only one bottle. one ratio.



i got better pics..



i'd add a little but if we're gonna dump the rez i'd rather wait.



i do but it doesn't work. i need some software that Moe Red made so i can calibrate it properly. i know it's off a little. i happen have a video date with the one and only mr Red this friday!!! if it's productive enough and we have some bullshit time i'll spring it on him and see what he says.. i don't think he has it anymore though and would have to recode it.. i'm not 100% sure but if i get the chance i'll ask..



it smells okay, not wowzers but also not a foul smell.. to me they smell just like alfalfa sprouts they put out at a salad bar. i grow them on my kitchen counter and they remind me of that smell.

View attachment 121471View attachment 121472View attachment 121473View attachment 121474View attachment 121475View attachment 121476



wow could you imagine all the supports needed for that?? wow!!! trees as tall as the guns!!!! hahaha



it wouldn't surprise me... i know i'm dayam high myself!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



you post fuckin fast!!!! and i type like secretary at like 30 words a minute!!!! hahahaha


yeah i'm down , lets make a new recipe!!!! what are your thoughts on that lucas formula??

Best Hydroponics Nutrients | Lucas Formula

Easiest nutrient schedule and grow guide for vegetation and flowering when using hydroponics, specifically deep water culture

hackingthegrow.com

My brain just runs 100 mph a minute...

Alright let me go over that lucas formula thing

Lol, typeracer.com, I can type 70-110 wpm on my KB.

 

[Observer]

I think the roots are mostly fine.

 

[Observer]

Wait what the fuck lol

 

[Observer]

So like this works for alot people? Ok cool, but maybe in you're scenario it's causing the opposite problem?

It's saying it provides too much nitrogen, but im almost set on that in your case there's too much Ca+K, and/ or it's not enough nitrogen for the ratios your mixing?....or to balance out that Ca+K and your using tap or /"hard" water that is already high in calcium?!?!?! Lol

 

[Observer]

[/QUOTE]
yeah i'm down , lets make a new recipe!!!! what are your thoughts on that lucas formula??

Best Hydroponics Nutrients | Lucas Formula

Easiest nutrient schedule and grow guide for vegetation and flowering when using hydroponics, specifically deep water culture

hackingthegrow.com

[/QUOTE]
Yea fuck that let's just run some grow and micro with a slight bloom rn?

 

[Stoneyluv]

My brain just runs 100 mph a minute...

yes, i know... squirrel!!!!!!!!!! hahaha

Alright let me go over that lucas formula thing

it seems drawn up for the type of water i am using...

Lol, typeracer.com, I can type 70-110 wpm on my KB.

haha i just made that number up i have no idea how fast i actually type..

I think the roots are mostly fine.

mostly fine is a good way to describe them

Wait what the fuck lol

what? the brown schmeg? i saw that too.. what is that???

So like this works for alot people? Ok cool, but maybe in you're scenario it's causing the opposite problem?

It's saying it provides too much nitrogen, but im almost set on that in your case there's too much Ca+K, and/ or it's not enough nitrogen for the ratios your mixing?....or to balance out that Ca+K and your using tap or /"hard" water that is already high in calcium?!?!?! Lol

i had a feeling you were gonna say this... even typed it out then deleted it.. thats why i type slow.. i delete shit!! hahaha