Great White Shark Attack

[Beachwalker]

I think that's more on the concepts of mixing elements together that wont precipitate.

Thats the why on nutrient mixing order atleast.


Like if you took a gallon of water and dumped in those elements at the same time, there'll be some trouble mixing and dissolving them, compared to mixing and dissolving one element or ratio at a time.



I could be wrong of course or missing context.

Agree, that's why virtually every related internet search gives the order that I've repeated above, the order I've been mixing in for years.

Wouldn't apply here but what I do is pour some water from a gallon into two separate containers, then add the micro to the remaining liquid in the gallon, then the grow to one of the two separate containers and the bloom to the other separate container, then I mix them together back into the gallon jug in the order I've mentioned above.

I mix dry nutrients in a similar manner, all to avoid lockout.

Not saying lockout is the problem he's having, but I am saying that there is a correct order to mix GH Flora Trio.

Here's another long time grower and user of GH Flora trio who mixes it the same order.

White Rhino in The Great White North

-Separating my grow diary from my other diary which has turned into pictures of deer and wood fires- Some of my readings were so off the chart and different from each other that I feel I need to condense this grow to keep a better eye on it First heavy flush 11/12 One plant was 778 PPM and...

budbuilders.org

 

[GrumpAzz]

so, 1. fill barrel with water
2. add buffer and then reduce ph to 7.0 to eliminate any precipitation.
3. add cal/mag
4. add floramicro
5. add florabloom
6. add floragrow
7. mr Fulvic
8. great white or Orca

You've got the order right. I ran GH for 2 runs and drilled it into my head. Micro before the other nutes has something to do with Manganese, I believe. CalMag first according to a mixing video on the GH website. When I first started using Athena nutes, I emailed them to make sure that my CalMag goes in last.

What I'm seeing that would potentially be affecting your stability is that you're only bringing it down to 7 with your buffer, in a sense using nutes to buffer it down to 5.8. The way it was explained to me is that it's better to add UP at the end than to start high letting the nutes bring it down.

 

[Stoneyluv]

That's the same order myself, AI, and the internet search said, micro, grow and then bloom.

Look it up, every grow site I scanned says that order.

I've used it for about 4 years altogether but not during my decade of hydro, but if you want to do it the other way that's up to you, but you may be causing lockout


That's also the same order in which I mix my dry three-part Masterblend

Like I said I've been away from hydro for almost 30 years so I can't really help more than I've already tried, good luck with it!

hell i'll give it a try, it can't hurt... now that i think about it when i switched to flower nutes last time i changed the order up then too.. it felt weird to me to put in bloom then gro then bloom booster so i went gro- bloom- booster for the rest of the mixes.

like i said i'll try it. not sure it will happen this round though because these plant are now snapping out of it and the problem fixes itself. i still have a couple barrels of mixed nutes laying around now because of all the diluting i did. i'm not gonna throw them away, i'll use them.

but my next mix i'll go green then pink for good practice.

Possibly, would not hurt to try a 0ppm starting water with some small dose of NPK or mag sulfate.

i gave them a spritz of this foop,,, it's my oops fixer and normally takes care of any defic or uptake issues in my soil plants so i figured i'd give it try here.. although i'm pretty dang sure my problem was a toxic not a lockout, deviancies take days or week, burns happen in hours like this one did!! i didn't take a photo but man the leaf veins were the brightest red i ever saw!!! they almost were glow in the dark they we so were so bright red. i immediately went over to the doser bottle and shook it and realized the entire bottle of balance was added in, i knew instantly what caused the red.



i really think the plants are snapping out it and kicking in starting now,, last night was even better than the previous 48 hrs.. last night the doser never ran and the ph stayed perfect.

plants even look a little perkier today...

You've got the order right. I ran GH for 2 runs and drilled it into my head. Micro before the other nutes has something to do with Manganese, I believe. CalMag first according to a mixing video on the GH website. When I first started using Athena nutes, I emailed them to make sure that my CalMag goes in last.

What I'm seeing that would potentially be affecting your stability is that you're only bringing it down to 7 with your buffer, in a sense using nutes to buffer it down to 5.8. The way it was explained to me is that it's better to add UP at the end than to start high letting the nutes bring it down.

this is the one thing that Aqua and Moe steered me differently in... Aqua said to just get it under 7. he said really under 8 was fine too but 7 gives you some breathing room.

where Moe always told me to ph down the buffer to a perfect 5.8 then add nutes.

the nutes don't really bring the ph down too much when added, i still need to add like 10-15ml of down when i'm all finished mixing.

your point is valid though and i understand what you mean... Aqua taught the buffer to me as up(U) and down(D) together balance it, but when you add a bunch of up UUUUUUUU and then a bunch of down DDDDDDDD this is what makes the buffer and UUUUU/DDDDD is more stable than just U/D... so yeah i think i should be adding the DDDDDDD from the start and not waiting till after i add everything else. the only thing i notice that really changed the ph is the Mr Fulvic(humic).

but man on the 9th when i saw the leaves burned i dumped the whole rez and started over with no buffer at all. so right now this solution has no balance in it at all... all this time i only added the buffer because i thought i absolutely needed it, turns out it's acting the exact same without it.

maybe this tap water has enough buffers already in it where my rain water did not.. i need to stop bouncing back and forth between the two!! rain water is frozen right now and i'm out so everything has been on tap for a couple weeks now.

i have like 40 gallons of veg nutes now because of all the diluting, i might not need any more this round.. just calmag and trio in all the extra so i doubt it will go bad.

 

[Observer]

hell i'll give it a try, it can't hurt... now that i think about it when i switched to flower nutes last time i changed the order up then too.. it felt weird to me to put in bloom then gro then bloom booster so i went gro- bloom- booster for the rest of the mixes.

like i said i'll try it. not sure it will happen this round though because these plant are now snapping out of it and the problem fixes itself. i still have a couple barrels of mixed nutes laying around now because of all the diluting i did. i'm not gonna throw them away, i'll use them.

but my next mix i'll go green then pink for good practice.



i gave them a spritz of this foop,,, it's my oops fixer and normally takes care of any defic or uptake issues in my soil plants so i figured i'd give it try here.. although i'm pretty dang sure my problem was a toxic not a lockout, deviancies take days or week, burns happen in hours like this one did!! i didn't take a photo but man the leaf veins were the brightest red i ever saw!!! they almost were glow in the dark they we so were so bright red. i immediately went over to the doser bottle and shook it and realized the entire bottle of balance was added in, i knew instantly what caused the red.

View attachment 120935

i really think the plants are snapping out it and kicking in starting now,, last night was even better than the previous 48 hrs.. last night the doser never ran and the ph stayed perfect.

plants even look a little perkier today...

View attachment 120936



this is the one thing that Aqua and Moe steered me differently in... Aqua said to just get it under 7. he said really under 8 was fine too but 7 gives you some breathing room.

where Moe always told me to ph down the buffer to a perfect 5.8 then add nutes.

the nutes don't really bring the ph down too much when added, i still need to add like 10-15ml of down when i'm all finished mixing.

your point is valid though and i understand what you mean... Aqua taught the buffer to me as up(U) and down(D) together balance it, but when you add a bunch of up UUUUUUUU and then a bunch of down DDDDDDDD this is what makes the buffer and UUUUU/DDDDD is more stable than just U/D... so yeah i think i should be adding the DDDDDDD from the start and not waiting till after i add everything else. the only thing i notice that really changed the ph is the Mr Fulvic(humic).

but man on the 9th when i saw the leaves burned i dumped the whole rez and started over with no buffer at all. so right now this solution has no balance in it at all... all this time i only added the buffer because i thought i absolutely needed it, turns out it's acting the exact same without it.

maybe this tap water has enough buffers already in it where my rain water did not.. i need to stop bouncing back and forth between the two!! rain water is frozen right now and i'm out so everything has been on tap for a couple weeks now.

i have like 40 gallons of veg nutes now because of all the diluting, i might not need any more this round.. just calmag and trio in all the extra so i doubt it will go bad.

Could have been that potassium toxicity you mentioned earlier, causing a imbalance.

But now she's starting bounce out if it

 

[Stoneyluv]

Could have been that potassium toxicity you mentioned earlier, causing a imbalance.

But now she's starting bounce out if it

"and" (told ya i was full of em!) .. i didn't mention that this was the first time i ever used the balance as ph up. if you remember i was making my own (found my problem there BTW!!!) and then used GH store bought. well i had run out and Athena says to use balance as ph up. so i figured instead of buying more i would just use some of the huge gallon of balance i already own.

long story short, i don''t think the balance made a very good ph up for me. maybe because i didn't have the rest of the Athena lineup in or what but it didn't work that great for me at all!!!!

so i've since gotten more Gh up and also figured out my homemade stuff and might be testing it out in the near future.

maybe all of that combined and i assume that even though the doser keeps in within 5.7-5.8 non stop that doesn't mean the plant itself isn't experiencing swings then, correct? i mean just because i'm keeping a 25 gallon rez kinda steady doesn't mean the plant itself is steady at all, right?

they're kinda still fightin and wiggling and i'm just wrapping my arms up tight not letting them hurt themselves more... but they ain't happy by any means and like children throwing a fit!!!! hahaha i need to calm them down and give em some cake!!! haha

edit>> oooh better yet, they're like great white sharks wiggling around and i'm trying to wrestle them!!!!! hahaha

 

[Observer]

Chatgpt: Yes—your conclusion is correct.

A stable 5.7–5.8 reservoir pH does not mean the plant is stable.

Key points, briefly:

The plant experiences the rhizosphere, not the reservoir.

Roots actively change local pH during nutrient uptake.

Rhizosphere pH can swing ±0.5–1.0 even when the rez is locked.

Large reservoirs slow drift but do not prevent micro-instability at the root.

Controllers regulate averages, not what the root surface actually feels.


So: your rez can look perfect while the plant still experiences chemical swings. That is normal and expected.

 

[GrumpAzz]

I still use GH Up and Down. I haven't used my Balance as Up yet.

 

[doublej]

Its weird for sure man, I'm mixing the golden tree first..... I can't imagine that my nutrients are much different than yours.
I had to call and ask him...


You had said before that the two additives are similar... probably....just an FYI for reference if you need it.

Pulling for ya buddy

 

[Zen_seeker]

like children throwing a fit!!!! hahaha i need to calm them down and give em some cake!!! haha

You do not calm children with cake, unless sending them home with the parents in the next 15 minutes.

 

[Stoneyluv]

Chatgpt: Yes—your conclusion is correct.

A stable 5.7–5.8 reservoir pH does not mean the plant is stable.

Key points, briefly:

The plant experiences the rhizosphere, not the reservoir.

Roots actively change local pH during nutrient uptake.

Rhizosphere pH can swing ±0.5–1.0 even when the rez is locked.

Large reservoirs slow drift but do not prevent micro-instability at the root.

Controllers regulate averages, not what the root surface actually feels.


So: your rez can look perfect while the plant still experiences chemical swings. That is normal and expected.

ahhh see if AI says its true it must be!!!! hahaha

the rhizophere, thats the word i couldn't remember.. this is exactly what i believe my plants are experiencing. and this is why we should read our plants and not just our parameters.. to an outsider just looking at my rez numbers would never see this.

but i truly believe it's improving or just growing out of it and controlling the rhizophere themselves. before my doser was running more than once an hour to maintain, it's only run once in the past 37 hours, and that was 37 hours ago. no swings since then. ph or EC.

and to be clear the EC is the only swing i really watch. the doser keeps the water ph so i just loosely keep an eye on the bottle level on how much the pump is sipping out every couple days. the EC i check religiously every night around the same time and document.

I still use GH Up and Down. I haven't used my Balance as Up yet.

good to know, i wasn't sure if you even really used a ph up at all.

Its weird for sure man, I'm mixing the golden tree first..... I can't imagine that my nutrients are much different than yours.
I had to call and ask him...


You had said before that the two additives are similar... probably....just an FYI for reference if you need it.

Pulling for ya buddyView attachment 120954

yes sir, i'm pretty sure this falls along the exact same guidelines just called different names from different companies.

You do not calm children with cake, unless sending them home with the parents in the next 15 minutes.

ahhhh wise words from a pop pop!!!!! maybe i should drop a benadryl in my rez? hahaha

.
.

so one thing i noticed different about scrogin from clones versus seeds.. on seeded plants the nodes are side by side so topping at node four and then again at node two is easy and textbook... clones on the other hand don't grow the same way, on one clone alternating a coupe nodes earlier and it's changing the shape and size of the plant.. after the first topping all nodes have been alternating...



i tried to FIM the other one but i think i missed.. haha i missed the miss!!! one thing is for sure is they're gonna be bushy babes!!!!!!!!!

 

[Observer]

ahhh see if AI says its true it must be!!!! hahaha

the rhizophere, thats the word i couldn't remember.. this is exactly what i believe my plants are experiencing. and this is why we should read our plants and not just our parameters.. to an outsider just looking at my rez numbers would never see this.

but i truly believe it's improving or just growing out of it and controlling the rhizophere themselves. before my doser was running more than once an hour to maintain, it's only run once in the past 37 hours, and that was 37 hours ago. no swings since then. ph or EC.

and to be clear the EC is the only swing i really watch. the doser keeps the water ph so i just loosely keep an eye on the bottle level on how much the pump is sipping out every couple days. the EC i check religiously every night around the same time and document.



good to know, i wasn't sure if you even really used a ph up at all.



yes sir, i'm pretty sure this falls along the exact same guidelines just called different names from different companies.



ahhhh wise words from a pop pop!!!!! maybe i should drop a benadryl in my rez? hahaha

.
.

yea id keep ph stable, or swing/drift between 5.5-6.0, i assume E.C around 300-500, higher nitrogen to > PK /micronute ratios for veg. increase calcium and magnesium sulfate if signs show.

so one thing i noticed different about scrogin from clones versus seeds.. on seeded plants the nodes are side by side so topping at node four and then again at node two is easy and textbook... clones on the other hand don't grow the same way, on one clone alternating a coupe nodes earlier and it's changing the shape and size of the plant.. after the first topping all nodes have been alternating...

apical dominance pattern is different in clones compared to seeds.

is this what ur observing?

View attachment 120961

i tried to FIM the other one but i think i missed.. haha i missed the miss!!! one thing is for sure is they're gonna be bushy babes!!!!!!!!!

 

[Observer]

i think you need to start with grow/micro then add bloom as needed, then add calmag if the plants show signs they need it.

perspective & context, your starting with your buffer which is fine, but then going to calmag? plants need basic NPK so start with that, then add supplements, i could be wrong but thats HOW IM SEEING it.

in short, VEG is = NPK + "supplements"
but your "starting" or giving your plants calmag dosage, and then "calculating/adding NPK" to balance and compensate.

you need to start with NPK then add supplements to compensate.

i could be wrong but this is one way im seeing it. and besides any other issues like a few months ago when plants had a giga-hard times growing in ur DWC spot without any obvious reasons we all stuggled figuring out the exact cause? idk. i cant speak to that.

idk im just trying to help and offer thought-logical process. and perspective/context.

bloom/flower = MPK + "supplements"

I see where I made a mistake with context, while I was drunk lol.

In this specific scenario, above I say you need to start with NPK then add supplements to compensate, not necessarily the mix order of the bottles.

that then lead into proper mixing order of that specific line of manufactured elemental ion ratios discussion, which was not my context or main point.
I've not used GH, I'm not familiar with them or their ratios on their 3 bottles.

My context is coming from the basic plants needs and what I see from that green plant in a DWC bucket, and your potassium toxicity comment.
Just wanted to clarify my thought process

and how i personally like to run ratios in veg & / compared to Flower ionic ratios.
npk/mpk veg/flower

higher N >P>K ratio veg/ lower N>higher>P>K ratio in Flower.

utilize silica and other supplements/natural PGRs like triacontanol & kelp/chitosan ie,
when wanted or needed.

 

[Observer]

ahhh see if AI says its true it must be!!!! hahaha

ive been getting in these patterns of using it for a little, then not using it for a little cause id get annoyed with the "hallucinations" & inaccurate information

i routinely ask it to verify and validate, and then ill cross-reference other data or my own experience.

the rhizophere, thats the word i couldn't remember.. this is exactly what i believe my plants are experiencing. and this is why we should read our plants and not just our parameters.. to an outsider just looking at my rez numbers would never see this.

but i truly believe it's improving or just growing out of it and controlling the rhizophere themselves. before my doser was running more than once an hour to maintain, it's only run once in the past 37 hours, and that was 37 hours ago. no swings since then. ph or EC.

and to be clear the EC is the only swing i really watch. the doser keeps the water ph so i just loosely keep an eye on the bottle level on how much the pump is sipping out every couple days. the EC i check religiously every night around the same time and document.



good to know, i wasn't sure if you even really used a ph up at all.



yes sir, i'm pretty sure this falls along the exact same guidelines just called different names from different companies.



ahhhh wise words from a pop pop!!!!! maybe i should drop a benadryl in my rez? hahaha

.
.

so one thing i noticed different about scrogin from clones versus seeds.. on seeded plants the nodes are side by side so topping at node four and then again at node two is easy and textbook... clones on the other hand don't grow the same way, on one clone alternating a coupe nodes earlier and it's changing the shape and size of the plant.. after the first topping all nodes have been alternating...

View attachment 120961

i tried to FIM the other one but i think i missed.. haha i missed the miss!!! one thing is for sure is they're gonna be bushy babes!!!!!!!!!

 

[Observer]

Possibly, would not hurt to try a 0ppm starting water with some small dose of NPK or mag sulfate.

did u try a low ppm foliar feed 20-80ppm of npk and/or magsulfate? to be safe? and see if it helped them?

the leafs will uptake that within seconds, if its not too/strong much i suspect/ out of balance.

 

[Stoneyluv]

yea id keep ph stable, or swing/drift between 5.5-6.0, i assume E.C around 300-500, higher nitrogen to > PK /micronute ratios for veg. increase calcium and magnesium sulfate if signs show.

apical dominance pattern is different in clones compared to seeds.

is this what ur observing?

yeah pretty much. just been a minute since i grew out clones. don't think topping at four and two rule is as important or viable with clones was more my point.

I see where I made a mistake with context, while I was drunk lol.

In this specific scenario, above I say you need to start with NPK then add supplements to compensate, not necessarily the mix order of the bottles.

that then lead into proper mixing order of that specific line of manufactured elemental ion ratios discussion, which was not my context or main point.
I've not used GH, I'm not familiar with them or their ratios on their 3 bottles.

My context is coming from the basic plants needs and what I see from that green plant in a DWC bucket, and your potassium toxicity comment.
Just wanted to clarify my thought process

and how i personally like to run ratios in veg & / compared to Flower ionic ratios.
npk/mpk veg/flower

higher N >P>K ratio veg/ lower N>higher>P>K ratio in Flower.

utilize silica and other supplements/natural PGRs like triacontanol & kelp/chitosan ie,
when wanted or needed.

i didn;t know you were drunk but i got your point... hahaha

ive been getting in these patterns of using it for a little, then not using it for a little cause id get annoyed with the "hallucinations" & inaccurate information

i routinely ask it to verify and validate, and then ill cross-reference other data or my own experience.

it's not all that informative... hahahahahaha i had to....

did u try a low ppm foliar feed 20-80ppm of npk and/or magsulfate? to be safe? and see if it helped them?

the leafs will uptake that within seconds, if its not too/strong much i suspect/ out of balance.

shit i don't know i used foop.. like three pumps each..

dipshit says this...



i forgot to spray them tonight, thanks for reminding me... see now a smarter me should only spray one plant and see if it makes a difference!! ..

but man two days in a row and the ph has gone up... sumbitch!!!



EC was also the same.... about two quarts of top off were used for both plants....



i'm gonna let them ride at the 350 for now... BTW, the 350 is the following to best of my knowledge:

50ppm mystery water.. ( not a total mystery, mostly iron and calcium heavy.)
60ppm of cal/mag
230ppm of trio at this ratio..
, Micro is 5-0-1, Grow is 3-1-2, Bloom is 1-5-4 ... so what is that?? 20-8-12?
and 10ppm of Mr. Humic.

.

i need to go down there and spray em with foop right now before i forget!!!

 

[Stoneyluv]

they're still growing... kinda steady.. but still not correct. only i could make two clones grow different sizes!!! haha oh well..

i think i still need to lower the EC another .1 or .2....

 

[Observer]

they're still growing... kinda steady.. but still not correct. only i could make two clones grow different sizes!!! haha oh well..

i think i still need to lower the EC another .1 or .2....

View attachment 121357

Man wtf I just wanna help lol

I see the top leafs look troubled, but there's some middle green leafs that look good, besides nutrient ratios, idk wtf is going on, I see "burnt" tips/edges but I don't know why.

 

[Stoneyluv]

Man wtf I just wanna help lol

I see the top leafs look troubled, but there's some middle green leafs that look good, besides nutrient ratios, idk wtf is going on, I see "burnt" tips/edges but I don't know why.

everything was going just fine for days and days at 350ppm, then went to 360 for a couple days and then in the last 24 hours it went up to 390 all that burn showed up!!!

i didn't do anything, just monitoring.. idk..

 

[GrumpAzz]

everything was going just fine for days and days at 350ppm, then went to 360 for a couple days and then in the last 24 hours it went up to 390 all that burn showed up!!!

i didn't do anything, just monitoring.. idk..

Fasting has become incredibly popular these days...

 

[Observer]

yeah pretty much. just been a minute since i grew out clones. don't think topping at four and two rule is as important or viable with clones was more my point.



i didn;t know you were drunk but i got your point... hahaha



it's not all that informative... hahahahahaha i had to....

View attachment 121009



shit i don't know i used foop.. like three pumps each..

dipshit says this...

View attachment 121010

i forgot to spray them tonight, thanks for reminding me... see now a smarter me should only spray one plant and see if it makes a difference!! ..

but man two days in a row and the ph has gone up... sumbitch!!!

View attachment 121011

EC was also the same.... about two quarts of top off were used for both plants....

View attachment 121012View attachment 121013

i'm gonna let them ride at the 350 for now... BTW, the 350 is the following to best of my knowledge:

50ppm mystery water.. ( not a total mystery, mostly iron and calcium heavy.)
60ppm of cal/mag
230ppm of trio at this ratio..
View attachment 121014 , Micro is 5-0-1, Grow is 3-1-2, Bloom is 1-5-4 ... so what is that?? 20-8-12?
and 10ppm of Mr. Humic.

.

i need to go down there and spray em with foop right now before i forget!!!

Ok I'm looking at this might of found one issue.

""You cannot add NPK numbers linearly unless each part contributes equal nitrogen mass, which they do not"

 

[Observer]

Ok I'm looking at this might of found one issue.

""You cannot add NPK numbers linearly unless each part contributes equal nitrogen mass, which they do not"

Sorry had to go do something

Brb

 

[Stoneyluv]

Fasting has become incredibly popular these days...

i wish i knew when they were going to all of the sudden stop eating and drinking out of nowhere.

what could cause them to stop eating so fast? i didn't change a thing.. my top off is a litte higher at 380 but they only drank a gallon or so in the past week, no way adding one gallon to the rez did that. they caused this by fasting. so what they hell made them irritable this time??

Ok I'm looking at this might of found one issue.

""You cannot add NPK numbers linearly unless each part contributes equal nitrogen mass, which they do not"

i'm not sure i understand your post... i didn't add any NPK. i was just monitoring,, that PPM rose from the plants, i didn't add that.

 

[steamroller]

What is your pH doing?
This chart would be my reference for correction.

It seems like you should be lowering the EC of the res.
Can this be as simple as removing X and replacing with just plain water?

Does it seem like they are doing the same thing as before now that no one could figure out?

 

[Bandit420]

i wish i knew when they were going to all of the sudden stop eating and drinking out of nowhere.

what could cause them to stop eating so fast? i didn't change a thing.. my top off is a litte higher at 380 but they only drank a gallon or so in the past week, no way adding one gallon to the rez did that. they caused this by fasting. so what they hell made them irritable this time??




i'm not sure i understand your post... i didn't add any NPK. i was just monitoring,, that PPM rose from the plants, i didn't add that.

I believe what you're experiencing are the results of the roller coaster you describe in this post and have just kinda piled on and gotten worse...

wow i didn't realize it's been so long since i posted here.. thought i responded to those messages above. i know i did in my head!! haha sorry Ob's!!! i didn't mean to leave ya hangin like that!!!! but yes, i fully agree with you on all that. i figured if i want the tops to lok a certain way that needs to start with the roots, not the other way around and after seeing the success Grump had with trimming his roots just the same as you did i thought well it sure can't hurt to try!!

i'm going to trim them back once more i thing. each time i do, the roots branch out some more and fill in the thin spots. almost just like the tops do when we prune and lst.

.
.

i've been still struggling with my nutes. specifically getting it where the plants are happy. i've been too low t start then i went too high and now i'm back in the middle again and the last 48 hours have been the best so far but still not right and still not what i want!!!

i torched them on the 13th with K poisoning not paying attention to my doser and i don't have any safety checks or alarms turned on and i overdosed my plants with ph up. and on top of that i realized my ec pen was off by 140ppms and calibrated it. n clue how long its been wrong either..

they've been recovering but still not happy and healthy plants!!! i'm seriously considering changing nutes. i'm currently using the trio and all three. i think i'd like to try the lucas formula where i just use two of the three parts and just never use the green veg nutes part of them. the ratios are so much easier to hit and adjust. it's said that lucas is better for those using tap water like me and not RO, so maybe this will be more stable for me.

my other option is to go back to the nova stuff.. sicky and brown but worked.. i also have some jacks nutes from a decade ago.. not sure what to do.. right now i'm on trio and calmag at 350ppms. the past 48 have been the best yet so i'll let it ride till it's not working and if that only last a couple days i'll prolly shoot for lucas formula..

my rollercoaster mess....

View attachment 120871

the plants...

View attachment 120868

View attachment 120869

View attachment 120870

thoughts? concerns? advice?

i really felt confident starting out a couple weeks ago and now i just feel like a lost puppy yet once again..

.
.



i'm trying man... this stuff is so humbling!!!!!!!!!!!! most of the time if just makes my brain hurt, the rest of the time it makes my wallet hurt!!! haha

just wish i understood even a tiny bit of the chemistry so that i had a starting point to even learn but i'm just throwing darts for past year and half and honestly makes me feel stupid that i can't figure it out!

i don't know, if i can't get it straight here in a couple days i'm gonna try throwing more expensive darts and see if that helps.

for some reason i really believe it has to do with this. i just don't have enough times under my belt to try enough things to narrow it down yet. i know all the things i have eliminated and just keep trying new things each time.

so much seems to point at too much bubble (co2 poison) but i have checked and i'm not out of bounds or anywhere near that.



i wouldn't sweat it too much, i'm not... i really believe they're about to grow out of it any day now.. and if not, hey i still have all the clones yet!!! hahaha

View attachment 120882View attachment 120883

been giving them the exact same solution from my top off barrel.. just dip in a beaker and pour it into a tray with a heat mat under it. i don't ph anything with these clones... nothing.. pour and ignore!!!

kinda like my neighbors plant... yep, i still got it!!! ahahahaha he says this weekend he's gonna take it. i actually believe him this time though. see his wife is going out to CA to visit her kids and he's staying at home with the dogs so i think he's gonna put up a tent and put the plant in and do it all while his wife is away so she can't say no.. what;s she gonna do make him throw out a four foot plant,, no way!!! i think it's slick!! i'll help him!! hahahaha

things a monster though... not bad for a 200 watt CLW at only 50%!!!!!!!!!! no joke and i'm not kidding!!!! 100 watts of osram diodes kicking serious ass!!

View attachment 120881

and i have this to look forward to... a great white shark i have in flower right now.. i want a full table scrog full!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

View attachment 120884



man it goes deeper than that... i know i'm silly in thinking this but i'm gonna be honest i feel a little like the kiss of death. Aqua helped me a bunch one on one and left right after that. like literally days after.. then Moe helped me a ton one on one for a while and then left promptly..

please don't help me too much man... i really like having you here and don't want you to leave too!!!!!



not sure exactly what you mean but my mixing regiment has been:

fill barrel with water (about 40-50ppms, i call it 50) or rain water at 0ppms. since it's winter i'd like to use my tap water at 50ppm

so, 1. fill barrel with water
2. add buffer and then reduce ph to 7.0 to eliminate any precipitation.
3. add cal/mag
4. add floramicro
5. add florabloom
6. add floragrow
7. mr Fulvic
8. great white or Orca

but this very last time i skipped step 2. i figured if i was adding up all the time why even start with a bunch to begin with if it's not buffering anything anyway. i've been using Balance as buffer though before that.

i'd like to add rapid start but i'd just be wasting it right now with all the dumping and diluting i'm doing so i'm not going to use it until i know i have a handle on this.

I've stayed on the outside watching and don't wanna step on any toes but I'd give a different go at this recipe....
Fill barrel with water
Add the nutes in prescribed order by GH.
Do not add Mr. Fulvic or GW or Orca. Keep it 100% synthetic at this stage. Maybe not sterile but definitely synthetic

Let it all mix for about an hour and then check and adjust the pH little by little to the desired range. The goal is to use as little adjuster/buffer as possible and only use a single direction, never chasing it up and down. Give about 15 minutes with pump running between the adjustments to make sure all is mixed well.

IDK if that will work for you but it works great for me. Personally, adjusters used in quantity like what you do have cause havoc with the chemistry for me which is why I'm so reluctant to use them

 

[Observer]

i wish i knew when they were going to all of the sudden stop eating and drinking out of nowhere.

what could cause them to stop eating so fast? i didn't change a thing.. my top off is a litte higher at 380 but they only drank a gallon or so in the past week, no way adding one gallon to the rez did that. they caused this by fasting. so what they hell made them irritable this time??




i'm not sure i understand your post... i didn't add any NPK. i was just monitoring,, that PPM rose from the plants, i didn't add that.

i wish i knew when they were going to all of the sudden stop eating and drinking out of nowhere.

what could cause them to stop eating so fast? i didn't change a thing.. my top off is a litte higher at 380 but they only drank a gallon or so in the past week, no way adding one gallon to the rez did that. they caused this by fasting. so what they hell made them irritable this time??




i'm not sure i understand your post... i didn't add any NPK. i was just monitoring,, that PPM rose from the plants, i didn't add that.

No no no

The context about adding up the ratio maths between the nutrient bottles.

Not actually adding npk to the res

I think alot of things get lost in context

We forget

It's okay

I just wanna help and learn and assess the scenario and see if there's anything we are understanding wrong or not interpreting the data "correctly"

 

[GrumpAzz]

what could cause them to stop eating so fast? i didn't change a thing.. my top off is a litte higher at 380 but they only drank a gallon or so in the past week, no way adding one gallon to the rez did that. they caused this by fasting. so what they hell made them irritable this time??

So hear me out cuz I'm talking out of my ass but... ratios

If they aren't eating but still drinking, the ppm will rise regardless of the top-off ppm. Yeah you're putting 380 in, but it's going into an increasingly concentrating solution. That make sense?

I think if you can dial in the ratios, you'll solve your swings. That's goona take time and water though.

The goal is to use as little adjuster/buffer as possible and only use a single direction, never chasing it up and down.

I think I disagree on this part. I'm of the opinion that the more of a buffer you have, the better. It'll stay stable longer by being less affected but the plant's nutrient uptake. It's really hard to overdo it with a silicate additive and the amount of Down it takes to bring it back is negligible, barely adding ppm at all.

If you're relying on the nutes to keep the water around 5.8, it's not gonna work for long. I'd think it could work in an ideal situation where you're giving your plants the perfect ratios and concetration while topping off with the same exact water. It's hard to dial in the ppm to perfect though, so it'll slowly climb as the plants uptake nutrients and leave water behind. Using a buffer gives you quite a bit of breathing room. That all came out of my ass though, if you know what i mean.

If going without works then fuck yeah. I go without halfway through flower but they drink a ton of water and res changes happen more frequently, plus they no longer need the silicate.

 

[Bandit420]

So hear me out cuz I'm talking out of my ass but... ratios

If they aren't eating but still drinking, the ppm will rise regardless of the top-off ppm. Yeah you're putting 380 in, but it's going into an increasingly concentrating solution. That makesense?

I think if you can dial in the ratios, you'll solve your swings. That's goona take time and water though.


I think I disagree on this part. I'm of the opinion that the more of a buffer you have, the better. It'll stay stable longer by being less affected but the plant's nutrient uptake. It's really hard to overdo it with a silicate additive and the amount of Down it takes to bring it back is negligible, barely adding ppm at all.

If you're relying on the nutes to keep the water around 5.8, it's not gonna work for long. I'd think it could work in an ideal situation where you're giving your plants the perfect ratios and concetration while topping off with the same exact water. It's hard to dial in the ppm to perfect though, so it'll slowly climb as the water uptakes nutrients and leaves water behind. Using a buffer gives you quite a bit of breathing room. That all came out of my ass though, if you know what i mean.

If going without works then fuck yeah. I go with halfway through flower but they drink a ton of water and res changes happen more frequently, plus they no longer need the silicate.

Yeah I hear ya which is why I didn't wanna step on toes because I see it work for y'all.
It's just pretty much the exact opposite of what I was taught so I've never heard of it or seen it done until I got on this forum.

 

[steamroller]

My understanding of water as a fish breeder that manipulated water for money.
The duration a buffer works depends on the carbonate hardness [KH] of the water. Not the amount you install.
If the KH is low then a small amount will work efficiently. It will shift the water and hold it steady for a longer time.
If the KH is high then you will need a higher amount of buffers that only last a short time.
That is what KH does.
Generally speaking water sources with high KH are not easily or efficiently buffered regardless of amount used.

 

[GrumpAzz]

Yeah I hear ya which is why I didn't wanna step on toes because I see it work for y'all.
It's just pretty much the exact opposite of what I was taught so I've never heard of it or seen it done until I got on this forum.

Yeah and i only know what I've learned here from Moe and even then, I've barely scratched the surface of hydro.

For what it's worth.. i ping-ponged a lot when I was using GH nutes. Granted, I was a total newb and was mixing my own Agsil buffer. I just assumed bad ratios and decided on powdered nutes for a bit, thinking by gram was gonna be way more accurate than by mL in my beakers.

Stoney has a hydro gremlin and needs to put a little to Army man somewhere to ward 'em off. Works like a decoy owl does for your chickens. Do they make old school Army men but like Scuba dudes? Sick the SEALs on those bastards

 

[GrumpAzz]

Oh yeah.. Sick these dudes on them gremlins

 

[Costanza]

they're still growing... kinda steady.. but still not correct. only i could make two clones grow different sizes!!! haha oh well..

i think i still need to lower the EC another .1 or .2....

View attachment 121357

 

[Observer]

Ok I'm looking at this might of found one issue.

""You cannot add NPK numbers linearly unless each part contributes equal nitrogen mass, which they do not"

Hmm.

Ok I'm looking at this might of found one issue.

""You cannot add NPK numbers linearly unless each part contributes equal nitrogen mass, which they do not"

Try this?

Too much Ca + K, not enough effective N
(This tracks with your potassium toxicity)

Fix: cut Cal/Mag in half, shift GH Trio slightly toward Grow, less Bloom.

See if that changes the plant health patterns.

Besides a ratio problem, which I think it is, but if it's not, it could be a contamination/root zone issue.

I won't know until we validate changing ratios, process of Elimination, In that current environment, under that current photonic spectrum/DLI.

I think it's the NpK ratio fucking you and the ratio math might be off?

"You cannot add NPK numbers linearly unless each part contributes EQUAL NITROGEN MASS, which they do not"

20-8-12 is what you think its adding up to, but im seeing that it's adding up to -->

~9–10 N : 4–5 P : 8–9 K

You mentioned a possible K toxicity earlier, which tracks with that above actual ratio.

The N > K ratio is fucked lol, the K is too high relative to N demand at this stage, it is Out of Balance.

~10N 5P 9K might be the actual ratio, not 20-8-12.

Maybe that's the issue?
Adjust & Observe

I'm no pro on ratio balances but it doesn't sound right to my "intuition"?

Just trying to help and solve a problem, I could be wrong, but Process of Elimination route to solve this.

Thanksya.

 

[Observer]

Too much calcium and potassium is antagonistic to nutrient uptake.


I think your pH buffer is also part-potassium?

If so, maybe that's also/ is or what contributed to the potassium toxicity or atagonism?

Oooo....and that's why the plant is trying so hard to adjust its root zone....but you are always automatically dosing 5.8 which is fine?......but because of the above variables....it's causing an issue?

Brainstorming....

 

[Stoneyluv]

What is your pH doing?

a little history.. last week on monday the 15th i set the doser to monitor only and not control. I check the ph every night at 1am, when it is high or low it is only .1 change so within acceptable limit from what i understand.

so on monday the 15th, i reduced the ppm from 460 to 350. the 17th.18th, and 19th the ph rose each day, and each day i manually added 1ml of down to bring it to 5.8. on the 20th the ph never moved. all this time the ppms stayed in the 350-360 spot. on sunday the 21st the ph went down for the very first time, ppms were still 360. i wasn't worried, instead of manually adding ph up i just set the doser to control and let it add the ph up slowly. i felt on top of the world at this point.. they were growing and had drank about 1.5 gallons since the 15th. felt like i knew what i was doing.

so this is where i added Rapid Start.. ( i forgot this ) did i fuck it all up by adding rapid start? after adding the rapid start the ph went down .2 but the ppms didn't change. i again just left the doser fix it and went to bed.

on monday the ppms were up to 380 flashing 390, plants were all burnt.. i even wrote wtf?? on the day!! haha the ph was 5.9 once again, i lowered it.

tonight at 9 pm the ppms were up to 390 flashing 400. and the ph was again 5.9. so i took out eight gallons and added water. the ppms are now at 300 the doser is turned off and i also turned off the top off

This chart would be my reference for correction.

i use these charts like bibles because i have nothing else to go by. but to be honest they never work for me... the top one you posted Grump gave me and Smoke gave me the other one.

It seems like you should be lowering the EC of the res.
Can this be as simple as removing X and replacing with just plain water?

i sure hope so because thats what i've been doing all this time.

Does it seem like they are doing the same thing as before now that no one could figure out?

yes sir, 100% i'm sure of it. i never did stop it, just been able to work around and deal with it. at some point last grow they got so big ad so much root mass they just managed the water themselves and i just paid attention to the ppms and adjusted that way. seemed to work well so i tried to do the same thing here but these aren't reacting the same way. i bet if these were seedlings they wouldn't make it but these are big enough that they'll survive once i get the solution low enough.

I believe what you're experiencing are the results of the roller coaster you describe in this post and have just kinda piled on and gotten worse...

yes sir, amplified but seems to be the same issue. but just when i say noooo my ph never climbs, for the past week it climbed. i can't win, makes a liar of me every time!!!

I've stayed on the outside watching and don't wanna step on any toes but I'd give a different go at this recipe....
Fill barrel with water
Add the nutes in prescribed order by GH.
Do not add Mr. Fulvic or GW or Orca. Keep it 100% synthetic at this stage. Maybe not sterile but definitely synthetic

this is how i mix them i believe.. i use my white mixing barrel, fill it with plain water. add calmag-stir-add trio.. i then add this to my rez. i don't add mr fulvic or bennies till the next day or two to three days after. once i see that the trio strength i added is working that when i add the extras. if i add them in the beginning i just end up pumping them out in the yard anyway so i wait till i know i'm rolling with this strength.

it's why i waited an entre week this time to add the rapid start. and now i had to pump eight gallons out already!!

Let it all mix for about an hour and then check and adjust the pH little by little to the desired range. The goal is to use as little adjuster/buffer as possible and only use a single direction, never chasing it up and down. Give about 15 minutes with pump running between the adjustments to make sure all is mixed well.

i rarely over correct. i try to mix my nutes when i have a bunch of stuff to do with the soil plants so i can bounce back and forth and gve the mixing time. sometimes it takes me an hour to correct the ph i add it so slow.

i swear i have all good habits!!! don't even dip my pens in the rez ever!!!!

IDK if that will work for you but it works great for me. Personally, adjusters used in quantity like what you do have cause havoc with the chemistry for me which is why I'm so reluctant to use them

i understand man, i don't want to add the up like that at that kind of volume. but if i don't use it my ph will be so low it would kill the plants so i need to add it. well really the doser needs to add it... and thats really another problem here right.. i mean i "should" have the alarms and safety settings turned on so this very thing can't happen. but when an alrm goes off it stops doseing and just monitors...

No no no

The context about adding up the ratio maths between the nutrient bottles.

Not actually adding npk to the res

I think alot of things get lost in context

We forget

It's okay

I just wanna help and learn and assess the scenario and see if there's anything we are understanding wrong or not interpreting the data "correctly"

you mean the measurements? it can be tough sometimes just like Grump said. plus GH doesn't offer an amount low enough in ppm. when i use the very lowest ratio they list i get 560ppms.. so what i do is say that i only want to mix it for ten gallons instead of 25 and add that. this is okay that i do it that way right?

So hear me out cuz I'm talking out of my ass but... ratios

If they aren't eating but still drinking, the ppm will rise regardless of the top-off ppm. Yeah you're putting 380 in, but it's going into an increasingly concentrating solution. That make sense?

I think if you can dial in the ratios, you'll solve your swings. That's goona take time and water though.

yes that makes perfect sense and we're on the same page with that. not only is it concentrating it but there is no way it is concentrating at the same even ratio i started out at.

this is where i weary of just watering down solution that has been rising for a week because i'm just watering down the wrong ratio.

you're right though it is tough measuring with beakers and syringes.. the math will say 48 my eye says maybe 46, maybe 49... and when i'm trying to measure out such a weak solution every ml matter i assume...

sounds like it could be a problem, not sure that it's thee problem but thee problem could be compounded problems that don't seem like much to me but really are.

but how do i fix this? how do i measure better? you think i could document weight and measure it that way?

My understanding of water as a fish breeder that manipulated water for money.
The duration a buffer works depends on the carbonate hardness [KH] of the water. Not the amount you install.
If the KH is low then a small amount will work efficiently. It will shift the water and hold it steady for a longer time.
If the KH is high then you will need a higher amount of buffers that only last a short time.
That is what KH does.
Generally speaking water sources with high KH are not easily or efficiently buffered regardless of amount used.

so how does one know their KH? asking for a friend...

Oh yeah.. Sick these dudes on them gremlins
View attachment 121435

i can sure as hell print some out if nothing else!!!!!! i need some sort of defense, i was thinking of putting yoda in there!!!

View attachment 121437

thats what i feel like!!! hahahaha

i mean zoom in y'all... the left plant has three bladed leaves and everything.... how did i manage to screw that one up!!!!! they both started with five!!! left one is back to five again now though..

^^could this maybe be a clue as to what i'm doing wrong?

.
.

also, another question for all you guys:

what caused red stem tops and red leaf veins? i have this when my problem is at it's peak.

.

and.. my roots didn't look the best tonight, first time i looked in while... the smell good and fresh but have a yellow tinge to them. maybe i should add some enzymes... they can't hurt the situation i assume.

oo much Ca + K, not enough effective N
(This tracks with your potassium toxicity)

i'm listening...

Fix: cut Cal/Mag in half, shift GH Trio slightly toward Grow, less Bloom.

so here's an issue.. i believe i have real idea just how much cal mag i even have anymore.. after diluting so many times i'm also diluting the calimagic and adding some back with my hard well water.

Besides a ratio problem, which I think it is, but if it's not, it could be a contamination/root zone issue.

yeah those roots don't look the best right now huh??

I think it's the NpK ratio fucking you and the ratio math might be off?

"You cannot add NPK numbers linearly unless each part contributes EQUAL NITROGEN MASS, which they do not"

20-8-12 is what you think its adding up to, but im seeing that it's adding up to -->

~9–10 N : 4–5 P : 8–9 K

You mentioned a possible K toxicity earlier, which tracks with that above actual ratio.

The N > K ratio is fucked lol, the K is too high relative to N demand at this stage, it is Out of Balance.

~10N 5P 9K might be the actual ratio, not 20-8-12.

Maybe that's the issue?

so help me out, i don't really know where to start...

this is what i have...



honestly, i understand this more than that...



i have no clue as to where to even start anymore. i tried low, they hate it! i tried high, they hate it!!! i'm in the middle, now they hate that!!

help me figure out what to mix and i'll dump it all out and try something new right away! anything is better than what i'm doing at this point and i'm willing to try!

Adjust & Observe

I'm no pro on ratio balances but it doesn't sound right to my "intuition"?

Just trying to help and solve a problem, I could be wrong, but Process of Elimination route to solve this.

Thanksya.

yeah i get it... it's been a process of elimination for loooooooong time now.. i still have doubts in my design. i always doubt something that my hands were on when something doesn't work. it's always the best place to start.

could the wrong recirculation rate cause this kind of ciaos? my guess would be no but i figured i'd ask...

Too much calcium and potassium is antagonistic to nutrient uptake.


I think your pH buffer is also part-potassium?

If so, maybe that's also/ is or what contributed to the potassium toxicity or atagonism?

Oooo....and that's why the plant is trying so hard to adjust its root zone....but you are always automatically dosing 5.8 which is fine.....but because of the above variables....it's causing an issue?

Brainstorming....

not using a buffer at all this time... after i thought i poisoned them i thought well why add it to start with if it's not working and just adding more anyway so i skipped the buffer this batch... i think this is why i started seeing the ph rise trend... maybe?

 

[Observer]

a little history.. last week on monday the 15th i set the doser to monitor only and not control. I check the ph every night at 1am, when it is high or low it is only .1 change so within acceptable limit from what i understand.

so on monday the 15th, i reduced the ppm from 460 to 350. the 17th.18th, and 19th the ph rose each day, and each day i manually added 1ml of down to bring it to 5.8. on the 20th the ph never moved. all this time the ppms stayed in the 350-360 spot. on sunday the 21st the ph went down for the very first time, ppms were still 360. i wasn't worried, instead of manually adding ph up i just set the doser to control and let it add the ph up slowly. i felt on top of the world at this point.. they were growing and had drank about 1.5 gallons since the 15th. felt like i knew what i was doing.

so this is where i added Rapid Start.. ( i forgot this ) did i fuck it all up by adding rapid start? after adding the rapid start the ph went down .2 but the ppms didn't change. i again just left the doser fix it and went to bed.

on monday the ppms were up to 380 flashing 390, plants were all burnt.. i even wrote wtf?? on the day!! haha the ph was 5.9 once again, i lowered it.

tonight at 9 pm the ppms were up to 390 flashing 400. and the ph was again 5.9. so i took out eight gallons and added water. the ppms are now at 300 the doser is turned off and i also turned off the top off


View attachment 121451




i use these charts like bibles because i have nothing else to go by. but to be honest they never work for me... the top one you posted Grump gave me and Smoke gave me the other one.

View attachment 121456



i sure hope so because thats what i've been doing all this time.



yes sir, 100% i'm sure of it. i never did stop it, just been able to work around and deal with it. at some point last grow they got so big ad so much root mass they just managed the water themselves and i just paid attention to the ppms and adjusted that way. seemed to work well so i tried to do the same thing here but these aren't reacting the same way. i bet if these were seedlings they wouldn't make it but these are big enough that they'll survive once i get the solution low enough.



yes sir, amplified but seems to be the same issue. but just when i say noooo my ph never climbs, for the past week it climbed. i can't win, makes a liar of me every time!!!



this is how i mix them i believe.. i use my white mixing barrel, fill it with plain water. add calmag-stir-add trio.. i then add this to my rez. i don't add mr fulvic or bennies till the next day or two to three days after. once i see that the trio strength i added is working that when i add the extras. if i add them in the beginning i just end up pumping them out in the yard anyway so i wait till i know i'm rolling with this strength.

it's why i waited an entre week this time to add the rapid start. and now i had to pump eight gallons out already!!



i rarely over correct. i try to mix my nutes when i have a bunch of stuff to do with the soil plants so i can bounce back and forth and gve the mixing time. sometimes it takes me an hour to correct the ph i add it so slow.

i swear i have all good habits!!! don't even dip my pens in the rez ever!!!!



i understand man, i don't want to add the up like that at that kind of volume. but if i don't use it my ph will be so low it would kill the plants so i need to add it. well really the doser needs to add it... and thats really another problem here right.. i mean i "should" have the alarms and safety settings turned on so this very thing can't happen. but when an alrm goes off it stops doseing and just monitors...



you mean the measurements? it can be tough sometimes just like Grump said. plus GH doesn't offer an amount low enough in ppm. when i use the very lowest ratio they list i get 560ppms.. so what i do is say that i only want to mix it for ten gallons instead of 25 and add that. this is okay that i do it that way right?



yes that makes perfect sense and we're on the same page with that. not only is it concentrating it but there is no way it is concentrating at the same even ratio i started out at.

this is where i weary of just watering down solution that has been rising for a week because i'm just watering down the wrong ratio.

you're right though it is tough measuring with beakers and syringes.. the math will say 48 my eye says maybe 46, maybe 49... and when i'm trying to measure out such a weak solution every ml matter i assume...

sounds like it could be a problem, not sure that it's thee problem but thee problem could be compounded problems that don't seem like much to me but really are.

but how do i fix this? how do i measure better? you think i could document weight and measure it that way?



so how does one know their KH? asking for a friend...


i can sure as hell print some out if nothing else!!!!!! i need some sort of defense, i was thinking of putting yoda in there!!!



thats what i feel like!!! hahahaha

i mean zoom in y'all... the left plant has three bladed leaves and everything.... how did i manage to screw that one up!!!!! they both started with five!!! left one is back to five again now though..

^^could this maybe be a clue as to what i'm doing wrong?

.
.

also, another question for all you guys:

what caused red stem tops and red leaf veins? i have this when my problem is at it's peak.

.

and.. my roots didn't look the best tonight, first time i looked in while... the smell good and fresh but have a yellow tinge to them. maybe i should add some enzymes... they can't hurt the situation i assume.

View attachment 121454View attachment 121455



i'm listening...



so here's an issue.. i believe i have real idea just how much cal mag i even have anymore.. after diluting so many times i'm also diluting the calimagic and adding some back with my hard well water.



yeah those roots don't look the best right now huh??



so help me out, i don't really know where to start...

this is what i have...

View attachment 121459

honestly, i understand this more than that...

View attachment 121458

i have no clue as to where to even start anymore. i tried low, they hate it! i tried high, they hate it!!! i'm in the middle, now they hate that!!

help me figure out what to mix and i'll dump it all out and try something new right away! anything is better than what i'm doing at this point and i'm willing to try!



yeah i get it... it's been a process of elimination for loooooooong time now.. i still have doubts in my design. i always doubt something that my hands were on when something doesn't work. it's always the best place to start.

could the wrong recirculation rate cause this kind of ciaos? my guess would be no but i figured i'd ask...



not using a buffer at all this time... after i thought i poisoned them i thought well why add it to start with if it's not working and just adding more anyway so i skipped the buffer this batch... i think this is why i started seeing the ph rise trend... maybe?

I'm gonna fuckin figure this out for the both of us bro.


I FUCKING HATE not being able to figure out and solve a problem.

Give me more time to go back all over this again....but I'm really starting to lean towards ratio/antagonisms, if not contamination.

Let me look at those roots some more.

Adding some enzymes should not hurt(?) Only benefit.

You don't have a DO probe do you? Just curious.

 

[Observer]

How does the root zone smell?

Wish I could just teleport there and see in person and work through it lol

 

[Observer]

Let your pH swing between 5.5-6.2 if it's not already, and lower e.c.

If youre at 350 ppm but the plants aren't uptaking it and it rose 390????
Which leads to a root uptake issue or maybe a lockout/antagonism.

Maybe go to 300, but your makeup of that 300 ppm, should mostly be nitrogen, with a little P and K and some Micronutrients.

 

[Observer]

Let.me familiarize my self more with GH trio.

I'm used to salts and making/mixing my own ratios.

I go heavy with N>relative to everything else, to keep a balance, In Veg.

I start seeds with a bloom mix, then go to a veg mix, which is npk, I call the flower mix, MPK. (Because we need/use less nitrogen in flower, and more phosphorous, monopotassium, calcium and micronutrients)

 

[Observer]

a little history.. last week on monday the 15th i set the doser to monitor only and not control. I check the ph every night at 1am, when it is high or low it is only .1 change so within acceptable limit from what i understand.

so on monday the 15th, i reduced the ppm from 460 to 350. the 17th.18th, and 19th the ph rose each day, and each day i manually added 1ml of down to bring it to 5.8. on the 20th the ph never moved. all this time the ppms stayed in the 350-360 spot. on sunday the 21st the ph went down for the very first time, ppms were still 360. i wasn't worried, instead of manually adding ph up i just set the doser to control and let it add the ph up slowly. i felt on top of the world at this point.. they were growing and had drank about 1.5 gallons since the 15th. felt like i knew what i was doing.

so this is where i added Rapid Start.. ( i forgot this ) did i fuck it all up by adding rapid start? after adding the rapid start the ph went down .2 but the ppms didn't change. i again just left the doser fix it and went to bed.

on monday the ppms were up to 380 flashing 390, plants were all burnt.. i even wrote wtf?? on the day!! haha the ph was 5.9 once again, i lowered it.

tonight at 9 pm the ppms were up to 390 flashing 400. and the ph was again 5.9. so i took out eight gallons and added water. the ppms are now at 300 the doser is turned off and i also turned off the top off


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i use these charts like bibles because i have nothing else to go by. but to be honest they never work for me... the top one you posted Grump gave me and Smoke gave me the other one.

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i sure hope so because thats what i've been doing all this time.



yes sir, 100% i'm sure of it. i never did stop it, just been able to work around and deal with it. at some point last grow they got so big ad so much root mass they just managed the water themselves and i just paid attention to the ppms and adjusted that way. seemed to work well so i tried to do the same thing here but these aren't reacting the same way. i bet if these were seedlings they wouldn't make it but these are big enough that they'll survive once i get the solution low enough.



yes sir, amplified but seems to be the same issue. but just when i say noooo my ph never climbs, for the past week it climbed. i can't win, makes a liar of me every time!!!



this is how i mix them i believe.. i use my white mixing barrel, fill it with plain water. add calmag-stir-add trio.. i then add this to my rez. i don't add mr fulvic or bennies till the next day or two to three days after. once i see that the trio strength i added is working that when i add the extras. if i add them in the beginning i just end up pumping them out in the yard anyway so i wait till i know i'm rolling with this strength.

it's why i waited an entre week this time to add the rapid start. and now i had to pump eight gallons out already!!



i rarely over correct. i try to mix my nutes when i have a bunch of stuff to do with the soil plants so i can bounce back and forth and gve the mixing time. sometimes it takes me an hour to correct the ph i add it so slow.

i swear i have all good habits!!! don't even dip my pens in the rez ever!!!!



i understand man, i don't want to add the up like that at that kind of volume. but if i don't use it my ph will be so low it would kill the plants so i need to add it. well really the doser needs to add it... and thats really another problem here right.. i mean i "should" have the alarms and safety settings turned on so this very thing can't happen. but when an alrm goes off it stops doseing and just monitors...



you mean the measurements? it can be tough sometimes just like Grump said. plus GH doesn't offer an amount low enough in ppm. when i use the very lowest ratio they list i get 560ppms.. so what i do is say that i only want to mix it for ten gallons instead of 25 and add that. this is okay that i do it that way right?



yes that makes perfect sense and we're on the same page with that. not only is it concentrating it but there is no way it is concentrating at the same even ratio i started out at.

this is where i weary of just watering down solution that has been rising for a week because i'm just watering down the wrong ratio.

you're right though it is tough measuring with beakers and syringes.. the math will say 48 my eye says maybe 46, maybe 49... and when i'm trying to measure out such a weak solution every ml matter i assume...

sounds like it could be a problem, not sure that it's thee problem but thee problem could be compounded problems that don't seem like much to me but really are.

but how do i fix this? how do i measure better? you think i could document weight and measure it that way?



so how does one know their KH? asking for a friend...


i can sure as hell print some out if nothing else!!!!!! i need some sort of defense, i was thinking of putting yoda in there!!!



thats what i feel like!!! hahahaha

i mean zoom in y'all... the left plant has three bladed leaves and everything.... how did i manage to screw that one up!!!!! they both started with five!!! left one is back to five again now though..

^^could this maybe be a clue as to what i'm doing wrong?

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also, another question for all you guys:

what caused red stem tops and red leaf veins? i have this when my problem is at it's peak.

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and.. my roots didn't look the best tonight, first time i looked in while... the smell good and fresh but have a yellow tinge to them. maybe i should add some enzymes... they can't hurt the situation i assume.

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i'm listening...



so here's an issue.. i believe i have real idea just how much cal mag i even have anymore.. after diluting so many times i'm also diluting the calimagic and adding some back with my hard well water.



yeah those roots don't look the best right now huh??



so help me out, i don't really know where to start...

this is what i have...

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honestly, i understand this more than that...

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i have no clue as to where to even start anymore. i tried low, they hate it! i tried high, they hate it!!! i'm in the middle, now they hate that!!

help me figure out what to mix and i'll dump it all out and try something new right away! anything is better than what i'm doing at this point and i'm willing to try!



yeah i get it... it's been a process of elimination for loooooooong time now.. i still have doubts in my design. i always doubt something that my hands were on when something doesn't work. it's always the best place to start.

could the wrong recirculation rate cause this kind of ciaos? my guess would be no but i figured i'd ask...



not using a buffer at all this time... after i thought i poisoned them i thought well why add it to start with if it's not working and just adding more anyway so i skipped the buffer this batch... i think this is why i started seeing the ph rise trend... maybe?

There is KH test strips or sensors.

 

[Zen_seeker]

Yeah and i only know what I've learned here from Moe and even then, I've barely scratched the surface of hydro.

For what it's worth.. i ping-ponged a lot when I was using GH nutes. Granted, I was a total newb and was mixing my own Agsil buffer. I just assumed bad ratios and decided on powdered nutes for a bit, thinking by gram was gonna be way more accurate than by mL in my beakers.

Stoney has a hydro gremlin and needs to put a little to Army man somewhere to ward 'em off. Works like a decoy owl does for your chickens. Do they make old school Army men but like Scuba dudes? Sick the SEALs on those bastards

Looks like you could print a couple.