Kill 'me or Keep 'em?

[Rootsruler]

Not sure whats going on but I rooted some clones and the GF transplanted them into gallon pots. I keep getting 3 finger leaves. Not sure if the transplant stressed them too hard or what but I'm not seeing an improvement.

They've been a bit droopy after transplant and stayed that way for a bit. I upped the temp and they seemed to respond a little better but are currently in the state they are. Should I toss 'em and start over?

 

[MDK]

Let it grow fasho....it's about to start throwing the right amount of fingers just gotta figure itself out a bit imo

Had a lot of reveg stuff this year they all came out of it

Even had clones doing that and they're better now, took a bit but they got their shit together

 

[Bandit420]

I'd keep 'em. Were they cut from plants early in a 12/12 light cycle? Could be going thru a reveg if so and that usually takes 2 weeks to fully snap out of it

 

[Rootsruler]

I'd keep 'em. Were they cut from plants early in a 12/12 light cycle? Could be going thru a reveg if so and that usually takes 2 weeks to fully snap out of it

I clipped them from a mother I have but the mom is also 3 leafing. The mom was clipped from the last grow I did. Mom is under a CFL. I have 2 other flavors in the mom tent that are 5 fingers.

They seemed much happier before my GF transplanted them into the gallon cans. She mauled them so I thought that might be it but they don't seem to be springing back. I'll give them another week to see how they do.

They're sitting in 77*/70%.

 

[Bandit420]

I clipped them from a mother I have but the mom is also 3 leafing. The mom was clipped from the last grow I did. Mom is under a CFL. I have 2 other flavors in the mom tent that are 5 fingers.

They seemed much happier before my GF transplanted them into the gallon cans. She mauled them so I thought that might be it but they don't seem to be springing back. I'll give them another week to see how they do.

They're sitting in 77*/70%.

I'd take them up into the low to mid 80s on the temp to metabolize and give them a dose of Great White or Mycos +
Could be some light stress going on there too but hard to say what it is exactly from my end

 

[Aqua Man]

Completely salvageable… what are you room temps and humidity? To mich light for them right now until environment is dialed in better

 

[Aqua Man]

Drop that humidity to around 55% let em drink. Back the light way off and dont water then until they dry back significantly so they are light

 

[Rootsruler]

Completely salvageable… what are you room temps and humidity? To mich light for them right now until environment is dialed in better

Drop that humidity to around 55% let em drink. Back the light way off and dont water then until they dry back significantly so they are light

Measured at tallest plant I'm getting around 475 ppfd. Tent temps are averaging around 77*. Humidity at 70%.

I'll pull back light to around 350 ppfd and keep humidity around 55% to see if new growth sprouts 5 fingers.

I'll also try and raise temp a little and get it at or above 80*.

Thanks @Bandit420 and @Aqua Man! I'll post pics in a few days so you can see how they responded.

 

[Pipecarver]

Have you harvested mom? from what I'm getting here is you've taken clones off an iffy plant with only 3 fingered leaves. Somewhere along the line ruderals were mentioned and that they have a 3 fingered trait. If I have that right then you have a bunch of iffy plants you want to grow into something smokeable.

I've the feeling its not going to be worth the time to spend 4 months on something that might have more ruderalis than cannabis. I've grown from iffy seeds and it ends up just not being worth it. imho if you don't start with something your sure of it ends up being a regret. I'd suggest keep 1 grow it out and clone it just before you flip. if it ends up a keeper you have the kids if not you didn't spend 4 months growing a bunch of whiff weed

 

[Rootsruler]

Have you harvested mom? from what I'm getting here is you've taken clones off an iffy plant with only 3 fingered leaves. Somewhere along the line ruderals were mentioned and that they have a 3 fingered trait. If I have that right then you have a bunch of iffy plants you want to grow into something smokeable.

I've the feeling its not going to be worth the time to spend 4 months on something that might have more ruderalis than cannabis. I've grown from iffy seeds and it ends up just not being worth it. imho if you don't start with something your sure of it ends up being a regret. I'd suggest keep 1 grow it out and clone it just before you flip. if it ends up a keeper you have the kids if not you didn't spend 4 months growing a bunch of whiff weed

I haven't but I'm going to do what Bandit and Aqua mentioned to see if it helps.

The strain is a Strawberry Shortcake x TK BX 1. Didn't see any ruderalis genetics that I know of in its cross history.

 

[Aqua Man]

I haven't but I'm going to do what Bandit and Aqua mentioned to see if it helps.

The strain is a Strawberry Shortcake x TK BX 1. Didn't see any ruderalis genetics that I know of in its cross history.

If you have an IR temp gun ( most underrated tool in a grow kit for $20) get your plant temps around 75-77f lights on your prob close .

One absolute in cannabis is always reduce light when you see stress until its corrected

 

[Rootsruler]

Completely salvageable… what are you room temps and humidity? To mich light for them right now until environment is dialed in better

Now that I can heat the tent with my little heater what lights off temps should I be at? I know that normally you don't want more than a 10 point differential. Same here?

 

[Rootsruler]

If you have an IR temp gun ( most underrated tool in a grow kit for $20) get your plant temps around 75-77f lights on your prob close .

One absolute in cannabis is always reduce light when you see stress until its corrected

IR readings are averaging between 76.2 and 77.6. I took 3 readings off of each plant in different areas of the plant. They may drop some as I just raised the light so I'll check in a few hours and reconfirm my readings.

 

[Aqua Man]

Now that I can heat the tent with my little heater what lights off temps should I be at? I know that normally you don't want more than a 10 point differential. Same here?

Honestly as long as you stay over 65 i have never seen anyone have a problem. 5-10 is where i like to be as a doff unless controlling stretches with negative diff

 

[growsinse79]

1 cup pee per gal water.

 

[Rootsruler]

Tent is running at 80*/64% currently. IR readings went up a degree. I'm going to increase air circulation to cool down leaf temp. Plants have perked up substantially. New growth will tell the story.

 

[growsinse79]

Fast acting, instantly avail N and higher temps might get them to fast veg mode. Something with urea or Ammoniacal N. The high N will help them handle higher temps and grow faster.

 

[LJFarming]

I’m with pipecarver on this one. However I definitely didn’t have Aquaman or Bandit420 to help me with this when I had some 3 leaf plants babies a long time ago. So lowering the PPFD and temp may very well solved it. I definitely am not disagreeing with their advice!

However when I have started with 3 leaf babies they have never turned out like their older siblings did a run or 2 before when they started with 5 leaves.

I definitely think their recommendations would potentially fix the problem but if I have a 3 leafed plant it goes in the compost pile these days especially if I have the genetics still in a mom or another clone.

 

[Zen_seeker]

Not sure whats going on but I rooted some clones and the GF transplanted them into gallon pots. I keep getting 3 finger leaves. Not sure if the transplant stressed them too hard or what but I'm not seeing an improvement.

They've been a bit droopy after transplant and stayed that way for a bit. I upped the temp and they seemed to respond a little better but are currently in the state they are. Should I toss 'em and start over?

View attachment 25581

I piss off my clones all the time. Three fingers at least half the time. Even Twin2 outside had/has three finger leaves.

Although not a good sign i usually see them outgrowing it in later Veg. But not always. Not sure if it effected the harvest.

 

[Rootsruler]

Lets see first if the change in environment helps. I was inspecting them last night and noticed a few of the new growth leaves are sprouting 5 fingers. Not because of the change, obviously, but maybe they just needed to get through the transplant shock and reestablish their root zone? Perhaps the better environment will ease the stress.

I made the mistake of not supervising when the GF was transplanting and was busy doing something else. She got upset at me for trying to "mansplain" how to do it. She lectured me about how she's transplanted lots of plants before......

I caught the blasphemy as she was attempting to stuff the bare roots of one of the clones into the pot. She was pulling the clones from their little container by tugging on the stem trying to get them to slide out. She killed one before I stopped her. I can't imagine what tugging on those new roots did.

Not blaming her as mom is 3 fingering, also showing a few 5 fingers, but it didn't help.

Tent environmentals running at 83*/56% currently. Leaves are up and plant looks happier.

 

[Rootsruler]

Fast acting, instantly avail N and higher temps might get them to fast veg mode. Something with urea or Ammoniacal N. The high N will help them handle higher temps and grow faster.

I'm running chelated salts so they're already getting N served to them on a plate. Ammoniacal N would be the pee/urine you suggested previous?

 

[Rootsruler]

Almost forgot.....leaf temps averaging 77*.

 

[growsinse79]

Almost forgot.....leaf temps averaging 77*.

It looks like it's so mature it really wants to bud but can't because not enough dark. You need to make them want to veg. 80 or even higher is okay with the high N. How many hours light are they getting? Sometimes if you add even a half hour or hour with high N, and lots of blue ( MH is great).

 

[Aqua Man]

Almost forgot.....leaf temps averaging 77*.

Keep em below 80f or you may see negative effects. Imo adjust the room temp to get 75-77 leaf temps. With HID im thinking about that for room temps

 

[Rootsruler]

It looks like it's so mature it really wants to bud but can't because not enough dark. You need to make them want to veg. 80 or even higher is okay with the high N. How many hours light are they getting? Sometimes if you add even a half hour or hour with high N, and lots of blue ( MH is great).

Keep em below 80f or you may see negative effects. Imo adjust the room temp to get 75-77 leaf temps. With HID im thinking about that for room temps

They've been running at around 82* but that's with the little heater running. It'll run at 77* with just lung room environmentals so I'll shut off the heater and let her run at the lower temp.

Tent is currently running at 77*/61%. Leaf temps are averaging 77*. PPFD is averaging 350.

 

[Speedypete]

Keep em below 80f or you may see negative effects. Imo adjust the room temp to get 75-77 leaf temps. With HID im thinking about that for room temps

Aqua what would be optimal leaf temp under led? Thanks

 

[Aqua Man]

Aqua what would be optimal leaf temp under led? Thanks

The same… what changes is the room temp needed to achieve that.

 

[Rootsruler]

The same… what changes is the room temp needed to achieve that.

Just to clarify. If you're going to chase temp in the tent use leaf temp not air temp?

 

[Aqua Man]

Just to clarify. If you're going to chase temp in the tent use leaf temp not air temp?

100% correct brother… air temps mean nothing and with the cost of an IR temp gun there really is no excuse not to.

Even VPD calculations are incorrect without leaf temps taken into account

 

[Aqua Man]

Aqua what would be optimal leaf temp under led? Thanks

Ok bro so this topic is huge. What are you goals or what are you trying to understand? From there we can start and im sure the conversation will branch out alot because everything is kinda tied together.

First you want to go by the ppfd so you have an accurate idea of the light intensity… so first we need a way to measure that. To do that free a lix meter app will be good enough for your needs. I prefer the photone app and paid for the LED addon but thats not necessary. You will only really need this for one frow until you get the ppfd and distance measurements at the varying heights and intensity i can walk ya through all that no problem.

Then we can go over how to read the plants to determine gow happy they are with the current settings

 

[Rootsruler]

100% correct brother… air temps mean nothing and with the cost of an IR temp gun there really is no excuse not to.

Even VPD calculations are incorrect without leaf temps taken into account

Should lights off leaf temps also be taken into account? If so where do we want to be on that for maximum transpiration?

 

[Aqua Man]

Should lights off leaf temps also be taken into account? If so where do we want to be on that for maximum transpiration?

Plants barely transpire during lights out… light drives transpiration. Just made me question something myself…. I wonder how much translocation of nutrients happens between light and dark cycles…. Something i have never looked into

 

[Rootsruler]

Plants barely transpire during lights out… light drives transpiration. Just made me question something myself…. I wonder how much translocation of nutrients happens between light and dark cycles…. Something i have never looked into

So is there anything that can be done at lights out that will improve the overall grow? What metabolic processes are happening at lights out?

 

[Aqua Man]

So is there anything that can be done at lights out that will improve the overall grow?

It all depends on all of the key factors…. Anything is a broad statement…. So yes but it depends on whats going on to begin with. So i cannot give a broad statement that says x,y,z WILL make an improvement under all conditions

 

[Aqua Man]

In cannabis there are probably only a few absolutes and the rest is all it depends

 

[growsinse79]

So is there anything that can be done at lights out that will improve the overall grow? What metabolic processes are happening at lights out?

Leaves and branches replenish their water storage during the night, increasing their weight and causing them to droop down. Terrestrial laser scanning is a remote sensing technique that can produce a 3D representation of the surroundings with millimetre accuracy

Water makes tree branches droop at night

Terrestrial laser scanning data show that trees move their branches in a diurnal pattern, settling down for the night -- as if falling asleep. Changes in the water status of leaves and branches causes branches to move downward at night, up to 20 cm depending on the tree species.

www.sciencedaily.com

 

[Rootsruler]

It all depends on all of the key factors…. Anything is a broad statement…. So yes but it depends on whats going on to begin with. So i cannot give a broad statement that says x,y,z WILL make an improvement under all conditions

OK....some foundation to work off of. Lights on specs are all within range. Leaves are up and happy during the day and vigorous growth is happening. Lights go out and plants go to sleep. Lights out environmental specs all fall within acceptable range. Anything else I can do to make it better? Is that too general a foundation or does there need to be some specific imbalance happening where we need to tweak something else to get it back in balance?

According to RQS...

"In the dark, plants use the energy they produce during the day (or in the presence of light) to turn carbon dioxide from the environment into glucose and other simple sugars that they can use to help further fuel their growth."

 

[Aqua Man]

OK....some foundation to work off of. Lights on specs are all within range. Leaves are up and happy during the day and vigorous growth is happening. Lights go out and plants go to sleep. Lights out environmental specs all fall within acceptable range. Anything else I can do to make it better? Is that too general a foundation or does there need to be some specific imbalance happening where we need to tweak something else to get it back in balance?

According to RQS...

"In the dark, plants use the energy they produce during the day (or in the presence of light) to turn carbon dioxide from the environment into glucose and other simple sugars that they can use to help further fuel their growth."

Ok so yes that’s absolutely accurate but to the ratio of translocation of energy and nutrients in relation to lights on does it remain the same, higher or lower is what i was kinda thinking i need to look into because that answer i dont have… assumption would be the same or higher imo. Not much else can be done to improve growth if environmental factors are inline other than high o2 in the roots and PGRs that i can think of. No not co2 because that impacts the making of energy during lights on and a bit of other processes but lets not go there.


As said above plants droop due to more water in the leaves at night but the reason why there is more water in the leaves is….. because in the absence of light plants reduce the opening of the stomata and in turn transpiration this mean less water movement through the plant and less turgor leaving more water trapped in the plant leaves but they continue respiration and translocation of nutrients and energy.

 

[Rootsruler]

Ok so yes that’s absolutely accurate but to the ratio of translocation of energy and nutrients in relation to lights on does it remain the same, higher or lower is what i was kinda thinking i need to look into because that answer i dont have… assumption would be the same or higher imo. Not much else can be done to improve growth if environmental factors are inline other than high o2 in the roots and PGRs that i can think of. No not co2 because that impacts the making of energy during lights on and a bit of other processes but lets not go there.


As said above plants droop due to more water in the leaves at night but the reason why there is more water in the leaves is….. because in the absence of light plants reduce the opening of the stomata and in turn transpiration this mean less water movement through the plant and less turgor leaving more water trapped in the plant leaves but they continue respiration and translocation of nutrients and energy.

The RQS statement still didn't really answer my question or maybe I'm not reading it right. It says that at night they use the energy they produced during the day to help further fuel growth. Ok...but what growth are they further fueling?

My understanding from that is that as they sleep they grow, maybe at not as high a rate but they grow. Is there something I'm missing from that statement?

 

[Aqua Man]

The RQS statement still didn't really answer my question or maybe I'm not reading it right. It says that at night they use the energy they produced during the day to help further fuel growth. Ok...but what growth are they further fueling?

My understanding from that is that as they sleep they grow, maybe at not as high a rate but they grow. Is there something I'm missing from that statement?

First plants do NOT sleep they perform different processes and to correlate sleep with a plant drooping is just wrong.

Plants perdorm a multitude of processes depending on the presence or absence of light (and other factors but we are talking about light) Because the majority of the processes during light periodinvolve photosynthetic processes i would confidently assume that the plant is able to use less energy during the day because its focused on making energy.

At night this is not the case and it can then focus on using the stored energy made during the last light period for growth.