⚡Electrical Help Thread⚡

[tobh]

This is sort of right. The NEUTRAL is up in the light box and never comes down to the switch. Those whites in the switch box need to be identified with a strip of tape indicating that they're not neutrals.

what's the standard for indicating that? do i just write on a piece of tape saying "not neutral" or is there a special nomenclature?

figure while in rome i might as well make it right. if for nothing else than my future self.

 

[tobh]

All #14 there 12's too big and unnecessary for residential lighting circuits

remember, this house was used for a massive grow op and the previous owners ran new lines for a bunch of shit and might've just used their #12 when they put everything back to "normal"

 

[GrumpAzz]

what's the standard for indicating that? do i just write on a piece of tape saying "not neutral" or is there a special nomenclature?

figure while in rome i might as well make it right. if for nothing else than my future self.

A strip of black tape technically identifies it as a current carrying conductor. If it's in conduit, you're not allowed to run a white wire for a current carrying conductor but they allow it in residential to "save wire".

 

[tobh]

A strip of black tape technically identifies it as a current carrying conductor. If it's in conduit, you're not allowed to run a white wire for a current carrying conductor but they allow it in residential to "save wire".

cool. so just standard electrical tape will suffice?

 

[GrumpAzz]

All #14 there 12's too big and unnecessary for residential lighting circuits

I understand it's not necessary but, if it's on a 20 amp breaker, you can't run #14 legally. Those definitely look like 12s to me.

 

[Pipecarver]

remember, this house was used for a massive grow op and the previous owners ran new lines for a bunch of shit and might've just used their #12 when they put everything back to "normal"

I can tell the difference and that is all #14 in the box. I can see how it fits the quick wires and how big the 3 wire is entering the box.

I see the 2 wire coming in with a hot and neutral. spliced off the neutral to the light along with the red and black, coming off the switch. then at the light another 3 wire to another switch.

Also that is a yellow #33 Marrette a # 35 would be used on 2 #12's.

 

[GrumpAzz]

I can tell the difference and that is all #14 in the box. I can see how it fits the quick wires and how big the 3 wire is entering the box.

Neither one of us can tell what gauge wire that is, for certain, by looking at this picture. Tobh did, however, mention black #12 romex in his house.

I see the 2 wire coming in with a hot and neutral. spliced off the neutral to the light along with the red and black, coming off the switch. then at the light another 3 wire to another switch.

We'll just have to agree to disagree here, but I'd put money on the fact that if he pulled out the other 3-way, he's only gonna find one 3-wire romex with all three wires landed on the switch. I'll up the odds by betting the black wire in that box is landed on the black screw of the switch.

Also that is a yellow #33 Marrette a # 35 would be used on 2 #12's.

Yellow wirenuts, at least here in the states, are rated for up to 3 #12 conductors. Reds are rated for up to 5. If you want, I can verify this by going out to my work truck and snapping a picture of the bag of nuts.

 

[GrumpAzz]

Careful with this one right here @tobh. It looks like the rockers nicked that one when they cut out the box. Might throw some tape on it while you have the switch pulled out.

 

[tobh]

Careful with this one right here @tobh. It looks like the rockers nicked that one when they cut out the box. Might throw some tape on it while you have the switch pulled out.
View attachment 22800

damn, good catch! i have enough wire in the box i can likely just cut back to that point. Fuck the future guy, i don't need fire hazards lol

 

[Pipecarver]

Careful with this one right here @tobh. It looks like the rockers nicked that one when they cut out the box. Might throw some tape on it while you have the switch pulled out.
View attachment 22800

Nope #14 all the way, You see the 3 grounds crimped together? 3 #12 are larger than that. We called those boxes 11-10's and #12 would fill that box more. Okay on the #33's I was pushing you on that..... Somewhere on those wire will be written the size. I can see the writing on one but I can't make out what it says. Regardless #12 or #14 they both do the same job.. Why would you have 5 wires in a dead end 3 way? The 2 wire is the feed.

 

[tobh]

Alright! Now for the next questionable question ladies and gentlemen.

What's the safest way to check if a line going to a dead end junction box is live, less a touchless voltage or amperage tester?

I've found a junction box that has a 14/3 line running to it with no load. I don't have touchless testers, nor want to spend the money on one, so thinking about using a multimeter to check if there's some voltage coming through. What kind of PPE should i wear? rubber gloves? anything else?

 

[Stoneyluv]

Alright! Now for the next questionable question ladies and gentlemen.

What's the safest way to check if a line going to a dead end junction box is live, less a touchless voltage or amperage tester?

I've found a junction box that has a 14/3 line running to it with no load. I don't have touchless testers, nor want to spend the money on one, so thinking about using a multimeter to check if there's some voltage coming through. What kind of PPE should i wear? rubber gloves? anything else?

aluminum foil undies couldn't hurt...

nah man if you have a meter you'll be fine. yeah touchless are nice but not necessary i never rely on one, always double check with a meter anyway.

gloves might make it cumbersome to work with. my advice is be calm, confident, and steady. be comfortable with it. don't stand in a puddle of water and you'll be fine.

is the cable sheared off in the box with all the conductors unexposed? or is the sheath of the cable torn back exposing each individual wire? are the ends stripped back with copper exposed or connectors on the ends at all?

is the junction box metal?

 

[tobh]

aluminum foil undies couldn't hurt...

nah man if you have a meter you'll be fine. yeah touchless are nice but not necessary i never rely on one, always double check with a meter anyway.

gloves might make it cumbersome to work with. my advice is be calm, confident, and steady. be comfortable with it. don't stand in a puddle of water and you'll be fine.

is the cable sheared off in the box with all the conductors unexposed? or is the sheath of the cable torn back exposing each individual wire? are the ends stripped back with copper exposed or connectors on the ends at all?

is the junction box metal?

I haven't opened the box yet because I'm a bit sketched out about how it's installed with how the line is ran, and given the fact it's a 14/3 line. I didn't even know romex came like that, but it's white, three wires that look almost like speaker wire type coating, and definitely 14 gauge.

The box is a round box like you'd see a camera or flood light mounted to. Since I don't know what I'll find inside I haven't touched it to figure out if it's metal or plastic either. If it contains a live line, uncapped wires, and one of the energized lines is touching the box I don't want to become the path of least resistance, ya know?

Hence wondering what kind of PPE to use, mostly. Figure some rubber gloves would at least insulate me from being the easy way out.

 

[tobh]

That being said, I've used multimeters with the shitty cotton mickey mouse gloves in the oil path. it's amazing the dexterity you gain when you don't know where your fingers are lol

 

[Stoneyluv]

I haven't opened the box yet because I'm a bit sketched out about how it's installed with how the line is ran, and given the fact it's a 14/3 line. I didn't even know romex came like that, but it's white, three wires that look almost like speaker wire type coating, and definitely 14 gauge.

The box is a round box like you'd see a camera or flood light mounted to. Since I don't know what I'll find inside I haven't touched it to figure out if it's metal or plastic either. If it contains a live line, uncapped wires, and one of the energized lines is touching the box I don't want to become the path of least resistance, ya know?

Hence wondering what kind of PPE to use, mostly. Figure some rubber gloves would at least insulate me from being the easy way out.

you're approaching it right man, always assume it's live till you prove it's not.

the wire touching the box, is it purposely attached or is it just leaning against accidentally? if it's a plastic box than it don't matter. if it's a metal box then use your one meter lead on the metal box and focus your other meter lead to one of the other wires one at a time while glancing at the meter... keep the meter out in front of you so you can keep your eyes on the box and meter so you're not looking away when your hands are close to copper.

and just try not to bridge any wires together using your meter lead. make sure each lead only touches one wire at a time.

just hold the meter lead by the plastic and don't touch any metal with it while touching the wire, like the edge of the box or screws or something.

 

[Stoneyluv]

and if there is absolutely no way you an tell if the box is hot itself without touching it than quickly touch it with the back of your finger... if you do get shocked your muscles contact and it will close your hand pulling your finger away from the arc path. more important in DC but still good practice.

 

[tobh]

you're approaching it right man, always assume it's live till you prove it's not.

the wire touching the box, is it purposely attached or is it just leaning against accidentally? if it's a plastic box than it don't matter. if it's a metal box then use your one meter lead on the metal box and focus your other meter lead to one of the other wires one at a time while glancing at the meter... keep the meter out in front of you so you can keep your eyes on the box and meter so you're not looking away when your hands are close to copper.

and just try not to bridge any wires together using your meter lead. make sure each lead only touches one wire at a time.

just hold the meter lead by the plastic and don't touch any metal with it while touching the wire, like the edge of the box or screws or something.

and if there is absolutely no way you an tell if the box is hot itself without touching it than quickly touch it with the back of your finger... if you do get shocked your muscles contact and it will close your hand pulling your finger away from the arc path. more important in DC but still good practice.

Ok, first quote, I took as you misunderstanding what I said, but second quote gives me the best course of action. Given the paint or coating on the junction box, would 120V on a 15A circuit carry enough to move through weathered paint?

I am super hesitant to take a screw driver to pull the cover off that box simply because I assume the circuit is live, since the wire comes from the garage and the location is ideal for either a camera (low voltage) or flood light (still low voltage, but not 5v low, likely 120v)

 

[Stoneyluv]

Ok, first quote, I took as you misunderstanding what I said, but second quote gives me the best course of action. Given the paint or coating on the junction box, would 120V on a 15A circuit carry enough to move through weathered paint?

I am super hesitant to take a screw driver to pull the cover off that box simply because I assume the circuit is live, since the wire comes from the garage and the location is ideal for either a camera (low voltage) or flood light (still low voltage, but not 5v low, likely 120v)

if it's painted it's most likely metal. electricity is kinda like a rattlesnake, it gives you a warning first sometimes... even lightning gives you a warning before striking you believe it or not. but just touch it quick, like graze it with your finger. if it's hot it's tingle al little, it won't knock you on you ass or anything. graze it as quick as possible, don't catch your finger on a nail or anything crazy but a controlled quick swipe... if you don't feel anything swipe a little longer... keep doing that till ya got the balls to touch it. open it up, if it looks like a science project take a photo we'll walk ya through it.. if it looks straight forward continue on with your meter and be careful.

 

[Observer]

and if there is absolutely no way you an tell if the box is hot itself without touching it than quickly touch it with the back of your finger... if you do get shocked your muscles contact and it will close your hand pulling your finger away from the arc path. more important in DC but still good practice.

Clever

 

[Observer]

if it looks like a science project take a photo we'll walk ya through it..

Lmao


Id hope not

 

[tobh]

if it's painted it's most likely metal. electricity is kinda like a rattlesnake, it gives you a warning first sometimes... even lightning gives you a warning before striking you believe it or not. but just touch it quick, like graze it with your finger. if it's hot it's tingle al little, it won't knock you on you ass or anything. graze it as quick as possible, don't catch your finger on a nail or anything crazy but a controlled quick swipe... if you don't feel anything swipe a little longer... keep doing that till ya got the balls to touch it. open it up, if it looks like a science project take a photo we'll walk ya through it.. if it looks straight forward continue on with your meter and be careful.

good advice. I know AC isn't like DC (electrical fence) where it'll grab ya, AC throws, burns or vaporizes. Just not looking to go balls deep and end up with the lady posting my obituary ya know.

 

[GrumpAzz]

good advice. I know AC isn't like DC (electrical fence) where it'll grab ya, AC throws, burns or vaporizes. Just not looking to go balls deep and end up with the lady posting my obituary ya know.

Higher voltage AC contracts muscles and forces you to grab hold of what's shocking you. It's unlikely that 120v will hit you that hard. It can, depending on how well you're grounded and whether or not you're sweaty.

Stoney's suggestion of touching it may not tell you anything, however, unless you're grounded. It'll tell you whether or not you can touch the box, though, and that's a good starting point.

Using a fiberglass ladder, go up there and take the cover off. The only way it'll shock you is if there's a live conductor touching the inside of the box AND you touch it while also being in contact with some sort of grounded metal. If you just touch the box, you won't get bit. It may arc if the cover is smashing the wires in a way that they decompress when it's removed and TWO of the wires contact the box or each other.

A 120v arc flash won't likely carry enough current to burn you with the flash but you may want some safety shades to protect from flying debris. Those dipped cotton gloves will provide enough protection from a shock.

If the box is near a metal plumbing line, you can check whether it's live with your multimeter. One lead on the box (scratch through the paint) and one lead to the plumbing. From the previous pictures of your house, I'm assuming the wires in the box will be capped off. Just remove the cover slowly. Once the conductors are exposed, you can check for voltage without removing the nuts. Just cram the leads of the meter into the nuts and check all the wires, two at a time. If there's a ground wire in there, check each individual conductor separately to ground.

You got this bro. Steady hands and presence of mind. They aren't gonna jump out and bite ya. Just don't go fiddling willy-nilly and you be ok.

 

[Scotty 420]

This reminds me of a story one of the tech support guys for one of the big HVAC companies used to tell. He said a guy had called in & he was walking him through diagnosing a big commercial rooftop unit. He at one point asked him to check if he had power at a certain location & then he says it sounded like the guy dropped his phone. He picks the phone back up & tells him that there is power there, tech support guy doesn't think too much of it, dropping your phone while trying to maneuver both leads of a multi-meter wouldn't be that out of the ordinary, but after asking him a few other times for readings with similar results he finally asks about it. So it turns out the guy was just sticking his hands on the wires to figure out if they were hot. Which is funny in that it's entirely unsafe, but also because you really can't tell virtually anything about a 240v circuit (honestly you really can't tell much about a circuit of any voltage) by determining if wires at a certain location are "hot". Power will backfeed all over the place meaning you will have voltage from one leg, but not both legs you actually need to complete the circuit.

 

[Pipecarver]

good advice. I know AC isn't like DC (electrical fence) where it'll grab ya, AC throws, burns or vaporizes. Just not looking to go balls deep and end up with the lady posting my obituary ya know.

All this makes me chuckle, as a person that has been electrocuted / shocked hundreds of times from 120 - 347 volt I've been tagged and a small zap scares folks. just don't grab it and you'll be fine...lol...believe me I even hate static shocks but once they are over they're over and get on with it, just a momentary heart stoppage nothing to cry about....fkin kids today....lol....if it's hot you'll know soon enough and you can carry on......advice above is right on....with wires they are all hot until YOU proove otherwise....don't believe others that say its off.

 

[Stoneyluv]

if it's hot you'll know soon enough and you can carry on

this should be a label on breaker boxes!!!!

 

[Bandit420]

First time caller, long time listener and love the show...

I gotta question Y'all might be able to help me with.

About once per week my lights flip the breaker and I have to reset it.

The circuit goes like this....20amp GFCI breaker at the back of the house. Electric runs to the grow room and into an outdoor grade GFCI outlet box.
A Titan HID light controller plugs into the box.

The Titan was originally for HID lighting but now with LED it's timer is disabled so it's pretty much a very heavy duty power strip.
When it was HID, this issue was never a thing.
Lights only pull around 12 amps so it's not like the circuit is overloaded.

The LED have a sunrise and sunset feature that brings up intensity from zero to 100% in the span of 15 minutes and does the same when it turns off.
The breaker is tripping during the Sunset. As it dials down to the last setting before going dark, that's when the breaker trips. Sometimes it will happen at start up but mostly as lights go out.

I'm considering turning off the sunrise/sunset and see if it still trips but would like to know why that feature would trip a breaker?
The GFCI outlet doesn't trip, only the breaker at the back of the house.

I just don't know if maybe the breaker is faulty or maybe the Titan has issue with the power down and I should replace it with a more traditional heavy duty power strip. In the world of sparky maybe the GFCI is seeing the sunset as a power surge or something. I'm confused.

I'll hang up and listen

 

[Pipecarver]

First time caller, long time listener and love the show...

I gotta question Y'all might be able to help me with.

About once per week my lights flip the breaker and I have to reset it.

The circuit goes like this....20amp GFCI breaker at the back of the house. Electric runs to the grow room and into an outdoor grade GFCI outlet box.
A Titan HID light controller plugs into the box.

The Titan was originally for HID lighting but now with LED it's timer is disabled so it's pretty much a very heavy duty power strip.
When it was HID, this issue was never a thing.
Lights only pull around 12 amps so it's not like the circuit is overloaded.

The LED have a sunrise and sunset feature that brings up intensity from zero to 100% in the span of 15 minutes and does the same when it turns off.
The breaker is tripping during the Sunset. As it dials down to the last setting before going dark, that's when the breaker trips. Sometimes it will happen at start up but mostly as lights go out.

I'm considering turning off the sunrise/sunset and see if it still trips but would like to know why that feature would trip a breaker?
The GFCI outlet doesn't trip, only the breaker at the back of the house.

I just don't know if maybe the breaker is faulty or maybe the Titan has issue with the power down and I should replace it with a more traditional heavy duty power strip. In the world of sparky maybe the GFCI is seeing the sunset as a power surge or something. I'm confused.

I'll hang up and listen

Breakers are only guaranteed to trip at the rating once after that they can trip easier or harder,( at least that's what I learned in trade school 50+ yrs ago) each time they trip off it leaves an arc spot and the more times they trip the bigger the spot. They can either weld together eventually and not work at all or weld apart and not trip on an overload.

Breakers do break down and arc fault or ground fault can be finicky after tripping a few times

 

[tobh]

All this makes me chuckle, as a person that has been electrocuted / shocked hundreds of times from 120 - 347 volt I've been tagged and a small zap scares folks. just don't grab it and you'll be fine...lol...believe me I even hate static shocks but once they are over they're over and get on with it, just a momentary heart stoppage nothing to cry about....fkin kids today....lol....if it's hot you'll know soon enough and you can carry on......advice above is right on....with wires they are all hot until YOU proove otherwise....don't believe others that say its off.

So, when I was a kid I learned about DC in the way most kids growing up around livestock do -- I double fisted electrical fences not once but probably about three times. Ya know, really had to learn that lesson lol then later in life relearned it again on my Datsun with its distributor cap. I ain't trying to learn how different AC tastes lol I just know from my buddy who works on high voltage shit regularly (federal work) that those big boy circuits will turn a man into dust before he realizes that lock out tag out was bullshit

 

[smoke]

So, when I was a kid I learned about DC in the way most kids growing up around livestock do -- I double fisted electrical fences not once but probably about three times. Ya know, really had to learn that lesson lol then later in life relearned it again on my Datsun with its distributor cap. I ain't trying to learn how different AC tastes lol I just know from my buddy who works on high voltage shit regularly (federal work) that those big boy circuits will turn a man into dust before he realizes that lock out tag out was bullshit

No personal experience but ive heard not to pee on a electric fence. So as you grow older tobh my advice is to avoid the temptation.

 

[Stoneyluv]

First time caller, long time listener and love the show...

I gotta question Y'all might be able to help me with.

About once per week my lights flip the breaker and I have to reset it.

The circuit goes like this....20amp GFCI breaker at the back of the house. Electric runs to the grow room and into an outdoor grade GFCI outlet box.
A Titan HID light controller plugs into the box.

The Titan was originally for HID lighting but now with LED it's timer is disabled so it's pretty much a very heavy duty power strip.
When it was HID, this issue was never a thing.
Lights only pull around 12 amps so it's not like the circuit is overloaded.

The LED have a sunrise and sunset feature that brings up intensity from zero to 100% in the span of 15 minutes and does the same when it turns off.
The breaker is tripping during the Sunset. As it dials down to the last setting before going dark, that's when the breaker trips. Sometimes it will happen at start up but mostly as lights go out.

I'm considering turning off the sunrise/sunset and see if it still trips but would like to know why that feature would trip a breaker?
The GFCI outlet doesn't trip, only the breaker at the back of the house.

I just don't know if maybe the breaker is faulty or maybe the Titan has issue with the power down and I should replace it with a more traditional heavy duty power strip. In the world of sparky maybe the GFCI is seeing the sunset as a power surge or something. I'm confused.

I'll hang up and listen

yeah i agree with Pipecarver... for $5 just swap out the breaker. my breaker is not as sensitive as a gfci but the sunrise/sunset feature never caused me any weird issues and shouldn't for you either. i'd try the breaker.