A sneek peek deep into N2's garden thread

[IamN2pot]

Calcium needs increase starting where you are now. I think your at 1 per gal now i would add to that by half.

You lost me there, Smoke. What do you mean by "at 1 per gal"?
Are you suggesting Cal-Mag? I haven't ever added any C/M to the RDWC.
I do add 1ml per liter to the RO I water the earth plant with. Should I start adding it to the Jack's 321 the RDWC is in?

 

[smoke]

You lost me there, Smoke. What do you mean by "at 1 per gal"?
Are you suggesting Cal-Mag? I haven't ever added any C/M to the RDWC.
I do add 1ml per liter to the RO I water the earth plant with. Should I start adding it to the Jack's 321 the RDWC is in?

My mistake. When you ro your water your striping everything out of the water.

The way i do things is i take ro water add calmag to bring water to 180 ppms then add my nutrients. 180 ppms works out to approximately 3ml or 3cc per gal of water so what your adding to the soil grow @1ml/liter is what you should be given your hydro as well.

 

[IamN2pot]

OK. I knew the General Hydro feed schedule calls for Cal-Mag, but since no one has mentioned adding it, I just suposed it was in the 321 mix. Again, what I get for reading Jacks website. Excuse me, but doesn't it say on the website that the 321 feed schedule I'm theoreticlly following is for pure (translate RO) water? Oh yes, look what it says , here

Targeted to achieve the optimal nutrient balance for water sources that have low concentrations of calcium and magnesium (40 ppm Ca/Mg or less).

Just curious, if one reads the entire statement I linked to, am I crazy to read that statement and think that Cal-Mag is in the bag(s) of nutes I mix from them????

Smoke, who's nutes are you using?
FTR, my 300-330ppm is without any Cal-Mag. It's purely 321 ...and the Pot/silicate and bennies added.

@Moe.Red , can I ask for a second opinion? I know you were concerned about Cal back on page 2. Is this the same concern as Smoke has??? Have I been missing this?

We need to watch for sorta rust spots on the fan leaves now would be the time a calcium deficiency would occur if it is going to.

Either way, it's all good. I have GH Cal-Mag and I know how to use it, LOL!!! ...and now I have personal advice on how much to use.

Oh yes, and the pH continues to drop, about .1 per hour while the lights are on. Just sayin....

 

[moe.red]

There is calcium and magnesium in Jacks. I'm not home at the moment to look at my bags, but I think you will find it there.

Cal-Mag is easy and convenient. Putting the 2 together is a good way of avoiding lockout (see mulder's chart)

When I had a cal deficiency show up when I flipped to flower on this current run, even tho I had been running all Jacks up to that point, I found it better to add cal-mag. Within a day the problem was gone.

Some plants are just calcium hogs.

 

[smoke]

OK. I knew the General Hydro feed schedule calls for Cal-Mag, but since no one has mentioned adding it, I just suposed it was in the 321 mix. Again, what I get for reading Jacks website. Excuse me, but doesn't it say on the website that the 321 feed schedule I'm theoreticlly following is for pure (translate RO) water? Oh yes, look what it says , here

Just curious, if one reads the entire statement I linked to, am I crazy to read that statement and think that Cal-Mag is in the bag(s) of nutes I mix from them????

Smoke, who's nutes are you using?
FTR, my 300-330ppm is without any Cal-Mag. It's purely 321 ...and the Pot/silicate and bennies added.

@Moe.Red , can I ask for a second opinion? I know you were concerned about Cal back on page 2. Is this the same concern as Smoke has??? Have I been missing this?


Either way, it's all good. I have GH Cal-Mag and I know how to use it, LOL!!! ...and now I have personal advice on how much to use.

Oh yes, and the pH continues to drop, about .1 per hour while the lights are on. Just sayin....

Im using Gh 3 part

 

[moe.red]

Im using Gh 3 part

Hey smoke how’s things? No stomach bug I hope.

Slg texted me some pics of the wilderness you guys pass thru up there on his trip to see you. I really want to get to Montana some day. Can’t get enough of Taylor Sheridan and that whole Yellowstone series.

 

[smoke]

Hey smoke how’s things? No stomach bug I hope.

Slg texted me some pics of the wilderness you guys pass thru up there on his trip to see you. I really want to get to Montana some day. Can’t get enough of Taylor Sheridan and that whole Yellowstone series.

No bug here, just the normal stuff. Slg lives out in the boonies im closer to civilization but still have my space. I live in a subdivision on 7 acres but still have my privacy. Basically anyone is welcome to stop by for a free oz and are welcome to stay for as long as they want or until i kick the out.

Edit: wife corrected me again! Thats 5.88 acres

 

[moe.red]

I know that. Same. Except I give out elbows lol

 

[smoke]

I know that. Same. Except I give out elbows lol

Montana law says i can't give away elbows all at once

 

[moe.red]

Thought you guys made your own laws up there. I imagine you walking around the grow room with a 6 shooter on your hip.

 

[IamN2pot]

Good golly, Next water top up, I'll add Cal-Mag. That will be either as the lights go out or just after they come on tomorrow morning.
Should I add just the 2ml dose for the 1/2 gal of top up water, OR 20ml dose for all 5 gal in the system? or something in between???
THanks guys!!!!!


I did add a 1" top dressing to Mother Earth today. We'll see if that doesn't perk and green her up a bit over the next week or so.

 

[moe.red]

Good golly, Next water top up, I'll add Cal-Mag. That will be either as the lights go out or just after they come on tomorrow morning.
Should I add just the 2ml dose for the 1/2 gal of top up water, OR 20ml dose for all 5 gal in the system? or something in between???
THanks guys!!!!!


I did add a 1" top dressing to Mother Earth today. We'll see if that doesn't perk and green her up a bit over the next week or so.

I just read back thru the thread and smoke was spot on with his advice. Adding 3ml per gallon to the water your roots are in and keeping it there by adding at top offs would be the base amount if that is your only source of cal. If you are trying to catch up to symptoms in process I would go higher.

Figure out how much you put in with the jacks and add cal mag on top to get to that rate.

 

[IamN2pot]

Figure out how much you put in with the jacks and add cal mag on top to get to that rate.

LOL, easy for you to say. I think "to get to that rate", you are refering to Smoke's mentioned 180ppm of Cal-Mag?

If that is the case, I have no clue how to calculate what ppm of the 321 is Cal or Mag. The JAck's bags are labled with the A, 5-12-26 as being 6.3% Mag and the B, 15-0-0 as being 18% Cal. Top that off with the Mag that is in the Epsom and I have zero clue how many ppm of that soup is Cal + Mag. LOL, I WISH my mind worked well enough to just figure that out, oh well, no biggie!
I'll start with a double dose, 4ml in 1/2 gal when I top up the res tonight and report back in the morning.

THanks again guys. We all know where this grow would be without your help and advise!!! a few adjectives come to mind: fried, cooked, dead, killed, destroyed, ... so it's ALL good, THANKS!!!

 

[smoke]

I know jack about jacks 321, @Anthem275 tell us all you know about adding cal/mag when using jacks 123

 

[moe.red]

You can figure it out using hydro buddy or just wing it like you are and make adjustments as needed.

 

[IamN2pot]

FTR: I added 1/2 gal to top up the res that consisted of
RO = 0ppm
+ 4ml Cal/Mag = 410ppm
+ .5ml Orca, 1ml HydroGuard, .3gr silicate = 470ppm

adjusted pH from 5.2 before topping off to 5.8 after topping res. PPM went from 320 up to 350 (.6 to .7EC) and I sung her a lullaby to put her to bed...

 

[smoke]

FTR: I added 1/2 gal to top up the res that consisted of
RO = 0ppm
+ 4ml Cal/Mag = 410ppm
+ .5ml Orca, 1ml HydroGuard, .3gr silicate = 470ppm

adjusted pH from 5.2 before topping off to 5.8 after topping res. PPM went from 320 up to 350 (.6 to .7EC) and I sung her a lullaby to put her to bed...

You may want to increase your upper ph range to say 6.2 to help in the uptake of Calcium and magnesium. Notice there's different uptake charts for hydro or dirt.

 

[IamN2pot]

THis morning things looked great. The pH rose overnight, from 5.8 to 6.1, SWEET! So I lowered it to 5.9 and went mymerry way. Both plants, Water and Earth looked happier this morning, after the added Cal-Mag and the top dressing. I didn't look at the meter again until now, so 7-8 hours later and the pH had fallen off the table, again, 5.1.
Oh well, everything else looks great, leaves and roots. Water level has gone down almost another 1/2 gallon and the TDS has risin from 310 this morning to 330 right now.
Needless to say, I am clueless as to what is going on. The budlets are bigger and the trichomes growing, so it's all good, just weird to me.

I raosed the pH to 5.9 and will go on up to 6.2 in an hour or so. Going from 5.1 to 6.2 in one dose might be to much?

I'll add 3ml instead of 4 like last night, of Cal-Mag to the 1/2 gallon top off this evening. I don't want to over do it.
...and thanks for the charts Smoke. The lower, dirt one I'm familiar with. That top one for "water cultures" is a new one for me. THANK YOU!!!

 

[moe.red]

How much total water volume do you think you have now that roots are displacing water?

Hydro is kinda like the aquarium thing. The bigger the water you have, the easier it is to maintain. Honestly I think I would have trouble growing good plants completely stable in 5 gallons of water. You are starting out on skill level expert in this game I think. Maybe not.

 

[IamN2pot]

You are starting out on skill level expert in this game I think. Maybe not.

Lord I hope not. You hit the water volume about right, 5 to 5 1/4 gal. But if you are right, then there is alot of BS in our industry, selling single 5gal bucket systems. That would only hold about 2.5 gal with a full size rootball. Wouldn't that be fun.

 

[IamN2pot]

On a lighter and more colorful note, I was planting some 130 odd Viola's (Pansy's) into our 'bean' in the front yard this morning. There are 6 cells in each clump. I like it, but more impotant, the wife loves it!!!

 

[moe.red]

People do that all the time. Called Kratky. Growing in a 5 gallon pail is not new. They just don't measure stuff. And don't get the results Fallponics growers get.

 

[steamroller]

How much total water volume do you think you have now that roots are displacing water?

Hydro is kinda like the aquarium thing. The bigger the water you have, the easier it is to maintain. Honestly I think I would have trouble growing good plants completely stable in 5 gallons of water. You are starting out on skill level expert in this game I think. Maybe not.

This quite possibly is an explanation for what I read here everyday.
Every day I think ' he will get it right, it has to balance out'.
Seems like everyday his water is running him around.
I read Moes comment and immediately remembered an early picture of the roots.

Evey see the movie Jaws?
You need a bigger boat man~!
I would guess over 50% of that bucket volume is roots..
Moe mentioned to me my 11 liter buckets were on the small side..
I think I understand a little more what he meant.

 

[moe.red]

This quite possibly is an explanation for what I read here everyday.
Every day I think ' he will get it right, it has to balance out'.
Seems like everyday his water is running him around.
I read Moes comment and immediately remembered an early picture of the roots.

Evey see the movie Jaws?
You need a bigger boat man~!
I would guess over 50% of that bucket volume is roots..
Moe mentioned to me my 11 liter buckets were on the small side..
I think I understand a little more what he meant.

Yes sir, and you know all about fish tanks and how much easier it is to maintain 100 gallons than 10 gallons.

And keep in mind, your plants are steering your water parameters actively thru exudates every day.

 

[smoke]

The root mass in my system growing trees is surprising small volume wise.

With the root mass at the end of my last grow the roots from 4 big plants totaled about 2 to 3 gallons is all

 

[moe.red]

The root mass in my system growing trees is surprising small volume wise.

With the root mass at the end of my last grow the roots from 4 big plants totaled about 2 to 3 gallons is all

What does that work out to as a percentage?

 

[smoke]

What does that work out to as a percentage?

Maybe 6%

Surprisingly small

 

[moe.red]

Maybe 6%

Surprisingly small

That is something I did not know, thanks smoke. I would have agreed with Steam and thought it was much higher.

Seems counterintuitive, but I believe you.

 

[smoke]

I questioned myself when it happened but i intentionally filled my 70 gal external res and gravity fed from that into my system. The measurements on the tank are in 10 gal increments

 

[IamN2pot]

This morning things are looking just peachy. The pH climbed from 6.2 to 6.3 overnight. The PPM's dropped slightly, from 350 to 340 and the water level dropped at least a quart. That was at 6:30, just before lights on. By 9 the pH has dropped to 6.2 and continuing to fall, as expected. I am also concerned that I haven't added any additional nutes to the res in 4 days? Just Cal-Mag. I gues Somke is right, they can live off just Cal-Mag and water. Hahaha....

On the other side of the tent, Mother Earth has greened right up a bit since her top dressing, and trichome production seems to be on the increase. Odd observation. Earth is about a week ahead of Water in flower size. I'm attributing that to the week of Water being fried? but could be genetics since they are sisters from seeds. But Water looks to have noticably more trichomes, at least to these old eyes. See for yourself. I took a picture of the overall tent. Earth looks much closer to the darker green of Water. Then I took a couple pics of each gals flowers up close, well up close for my camera.



Here is Water....



and here is Earth...

 

[moe.red]

nice recovery.

Remember your probe accuracy on things like PPM are +/- a lot - more than 50PPM most likely. You can't really get any useful from a 10PPM change.

 

[IamN2pot]

nice recovery.

Yes, but all the caongrats go to you and Smoke and.... all the others that have offered there experiance to help along the way. Heck, between all you guys, I
might even get some usable trichomes from her.

 

[IamN2pot]

This evening I decided to try a LITTLE feed. I looked back and the last time I added any nute, other than Cal-Mag, Silica and bennies was Monday. So, I added 1 cup, 8 oz of full (2.0EC) stregnth 321. Raised my TDS from 330 to 350. I'll see what she looks like tomorrow morning.
Also, FTR tomorrow will be day 18 since the switch to the 321 soup she is in. When or will I, need to do a full or partial water/soup change???

On another subject, Man, has this forum 'brightened up'. The new black on white is ...uh, eye popping!!! Works for me...

 

[IamN2pot]

Time to update my journal. Both gals are looking fine. I'm becoming more and more convenced that Water Weed has visibly more trichomes, but Mother Earth still has visibly larger buds. They also have quite differant smells. Water smells much more Hazy, while the Earth reminds me of a bubble gum smell. The wife likes the sweet smell of Earth, and of course I like the Haze.

I have gotten braver, since adding that 'little' amount of nutes on Sat night, so Mon I raise the TDS a wee bit more. I've gone from 330 to 380ppm. I'm currently adding .5ml of GH Cal-Mag to all the RO I top off with along with bennies and then add the 321 (1080ppm) nute soup until I reach the 380 mark. Everything looks good right now, so fingers crossed!!! I flipped the light to 12/12, 4 weeks ago today.

I didn't get any advice when I ask if I should do a partial water change? or leave well enough alone??? @Moe.Red , @smoke , anyone else? She's on day 21 in her current soup?

Side by side:



Roots, remember I did a top dress on Earth about a week ago? and Water's massive roots today.


Bud size comps: Earth - Water



...and for a follow up, I have more in veg. The 4 large ones were taken about 10 days before the 3 small ones. The 4 large are from Mother Earth pheno. 2 of them are tripods. The 3 small ones that just rooted up are from Water Weed. That grow will compare the 2 phenos in the same growing conditions. I'll get a seperate grow journal going for them, but for now......


a tripod, 3 leaves at a time from the crown. WEIRD!!!

 

[smoke]

The way i determine what day of flower im at.
If i switched the lights to 12/12 today, tomorrow would be the first full day of flower. So according to the way I figure it, you are on day 27 of flower.

If she was mine id be giving her 50 more ml per gal of cm and increase the ppm to see if she wants it. Leaf tip damage is done whont fix that. I personally think it was caused by a imbalance of nutrients. Id be removing those damaged fans.

 

[IamN2pot]

If she was mine id be giving her 50 more ml per gal of cm...

I'll take it that's a typo, Smoke. 50ml of CalMag per gal?

 

[smoke]

I'll take it that's a typo, Smoke. 50ml of CalMag per gal?

Sorry N2, basically double what your giving her now which is 1ml/gal i think

 

[moe.red]

I'll take it that's a typo, Smoke. 50ml of CalMag per gal?

I measure my cal mag in gallons per mL of water.

 

[smoke]

Was thinking 5 ml/gal or 5cc/gal is my "norm"at week 4.

50 is close to 5

 

[IamN2pot]

I've up'ed the top off/nute soup from .5ml to .75ml Cla-Mag per liter and raised the TDS from 330 ro 440. It may just be the placibo effect, but she looks 'fatter'. I'm happy. She certainly has much more of a Haze smell than her sister. YUM!