A sneek peek deep into N2's garden thread

[moe.red]

I need to get to a big screen and zoom in (probably time for new glasses too) but that does not look like damage from ph swings to me. I’ll be back when I get to the office and can take a closer look.

 

[IamN2pot]

Here are pics from this morning, well, video. Half the tops fried last night.
I got into the garage at 6AM to check pH after leaving it at 5.8 at 10PM last night. I was very surprised to see that the pH had acrtually gone up to 6.0. First time ever that the pH has swung up in my RDWC. which I found weird but oh well. because... On a side note, my tiny bubble rooter I've used for 3 years, pH always swings up for the first 3-4 days, so I always thought is was odd that the RDWC pH dropped after a fresh water /nute change.

Lights on at 7 and at 7:30 I looked inside the tent. CRAP! See the videos.
This was supose to be a fun way to learn a new way to grow. I have to be honest with myself at this point. When I wake up worried about what I'm going to find inside my grow tent, it ain't fun. At my age, if I'm not enjoying it, I darn sure don't need any added stress and aggravation. I've learned that the recomended dosages of nutes from Jack's will most likely fry and kill your plants, use at 1/2 recomended dosage. pH goes all over the place, no wonder anyone wanting to do hydro seriously, has spent wads of money on an auto injector system, ....or put a cot, mini fridge and hotplate in the garden and live there.
In soil, I make up my Subcool's Supesoil receipe, let cook, plant, add water that has had the Chloramine removed and watch the flowers grow and SMILE!
RDWC, I check water pH every 2-4 hours, every day and adjust., or in my case, wind up with a pH swing from 5.8 to 4.6 in 10 hours! Mix this formula, next week mix another formula. Check air supply, chiller and pump, recirculating pump, root color and condition, water temp, TDS, oder, leaks and on and on. Sorry, but that is not my prescription for fun and enjoyable, retirement style gardening.
I guess this old dog just doesn't learn new tricks as easily as he thought he could. LOL, now I know for sure that there is one more thing, along with tight wire walking, cliff diving and flying a 747 and riding a unicycle that I don't know how, ... RDWC!
Watch and weep at the video. I am curious why some of the tops are seriously cooked while other tops seem uneffected? Jack's soup change last night went from Bloom 10-30-20 to the 321 formula at 1/2.
If you need/want full size still shots, let me know. I'll go take some of the leaf damage.

View attachment VID_20230421_074947.mp4

View attachment VID_20230421_075304.mp4

 

[moe.red]

Buddy that is not PH causing that. At least not what I'm seeing.

It's harder to pic out on video that pics, but it seems like I am seeing distorted twisted new growth, leaves tacoing, some areas drooping, just overall this plant is not happy.

I'm making the assumption here that the soil plant shows none of these symptoms?

Please remind me of the genetics and if they are clones of the same plant, seeds, etc.

Other than the water vs soil below the surface, is there any other differences between the plants?

Honestly it looks like a pest to me, but that makes no sense if the dirt plant is unaffected.

 

[IamN2pot]

LOL, your right about the 'tacoing'. I just went out there to look. pH is up to 5.9 and the leaves look more like the Venus Flytraps I used to raise. SERIOUSLY!!!

No, the dirt plant is not showing any of the hydro plants signs. She is a bit stiff droopy this morning, but that's only because the idiot farmer was so busy with mixing soup, draining and refilling last night, that he forgot to water her. But no, no signs of twisted growing tops, taco leaves, burnt leaves.....
I did raise the lamp, but seriously doubt that caused the issue. To many lower tops with the same issue and upper tops that show little or no signs.

I'll grab a couple close-ups of the leaf burn too.

 

[moe.red]

OK bro, this is NOT ph swinging between 5 and 7 causing this, I promise. We got something else going on.

Can you take a real close look for any kinds of pests. Any webs (even single strands) any black dots. Look really good at the underside of the leaves.

Do you have a sticky trap you can put in there to see if you catch anything?

Can you answer the genetics question - are they the same? From seed?

 

[IamN2pot]

I'm making the assumption here that the soil plant shows none of these symptoms?

Correct!

Please remind me of the genetics and if they are clones of the same plant, seeds, etc.

Seeds, Haze x NL#2

Other than the water vs soil below the surface, is there any other differences between the plants?

Just 2 pheno's of the same mother.


Here are some closer shots of both the fried tops alongside what look to be unfried tops.

 

[moe.red]

This screams bugs or nutes completely out to lunch to me.

Can you still get to the roots to check on them?

 

[IamN2pot]

...and as for insects, well, never say never! I am familiar with aphids (leaf and root), leaf miners, thrips, mites (2 spoted and red), white fly, fungus gnats, jumping beatles, nematodes (good and bad), bla bla. So if this is an insect, I REALLY want to catch one of them...

Root pictures coming.....

 

[smoke]

Does look bugs.

In the mean time if mine, i would do a 3/4 water change

 

[IamN2pot]

Roots, not as white as yesterday, especially the growing tips. But I more or less expected some additional discoloration because the 321 is a brownish color and the roots turned darker the last time I put them in the 321 soup. That may or may not be what is causing them to be less white today.
.....and a picture of the soil grown sister, sitting next to the RDWC for refferance.
also, FTR, I started with 3 gal RO, added 3.6gr potassium silicate (enough for 6 gal), added 3 gal worth of A and dispolved completely, added 3 gal of Epsom and stirred until completely disolved, added 3 gal worth of B and stirred until disolved. pHed down for 7.4ish to 5.8. Added Orca, Hydroguard and Hygrozyme at full stregnth in a 3 gal bucket. Drained the system, flushed an additional 1/2 gal through the lines and immeadiatly refilled using 1/2 gal RO followed by 1/2 gal soup. Another 1/2 gal RO and 1/2 gal soup untill all 6 gallons were in the system. Double checked pH - 5.8, temp - 68*, TDS - 570 (500 scale and 321 feed calls for TDS of 1200). That was about 7:30. Checked pH again at bedtime and it was at 5.9, so lowered to 5.8 and went to bed. 9 hours later, pH was 6.0 and the plant looks..... sad!







...and in the dirt next door.....

 

[IamN2pot]

LOL, and @smoke glad to see you lookin in. I think I want to try something I read in one of your post about growing in just RO and Cal-Mag! Now that sounds like my kind of soup reciepe!!!


Guess I start mixing another pot of soup.....
How diluted should it be????

 

[smoke]

LOL, and @smoke glad to see you lookin in. I think I want to try something I read in one of your post about growing in just RO and Cal-Mag! Now that sounds like my kind of soup reciepe!!!


Guess I start mixing another pot of soup.....
How diluted should it be????

This is where it bothers me to give advice because i don't run sterile and i don't live, i run neither on giggles, farts and cm.

If they were mine id dump 3/4 of the water replace with ro and add nutes to 1/2 what it was then wait while you continue looking for bugs.

 

[moe.red]

Oh shit. Is that crown rot I see?

 

[moe.red]

This is advanced crown rot




It's a pythium or fusarium infection. Happens in soil and hydro. Untreated it will kill your plant.

Bacillus amyloliquefaciens (hydroguard, orca, etc) will out-compete it. Spay application to the affected area ASAP, or perhaps at this point H2O2.

 

[smoke]

Or calcium, its around the rim of net pot

 

[moe.red]

Could be need N2 to give us better pics and inspect closely.

 

[IamN2pot]

Could be need N2 to give us better pics and inspect closely.

or it could be just plain ole mold from when the cover was on it to keep the light out and the moisture in and in doig so created that mold you see on the rapid rooter plug and around the base of the stem.
But now that you mention it, it's just one more thing that I've never had the privilege of having or even seeing in my soil grows, ...just sayin!

I have R emoved & R eplaced soup with plain RO to bring the ppm down to 300, or .6EC. Thanks for the advise Smoke, it make sense to me and to my VERY untrained eye, I'm thinking nute burn, again! And it does not look to my simi trained eye to be any sort of insect I've ever encountered.


Say you need close ups? I can do that. 1st up, the root stock base. No crown rot, just mycillia and it's very dry and dead, so false alarm I'm thinking there.


Next, lets see what one of those funky leaves looks like, close up and microscope up close. Here are the still shots I took, followed by some video. The black spot at the end of the video, I zoomed in on, only to find a piece of dirt? Whatever it is, it wasn't alive.
The leaf damage seen on the top of the leaves is leaf damage that is very hard to see from the underside of the leaf, if that helps.

THese are all of the same leaf.





Top of leaf under microscope and video of top of the leaf.


View attachment 2023-04-21-123505872.mp4


...and the underside pictures and video of the same leaf.




View attachment 2023-04-21-123646619.mp4

...and a close up of the black spot at the end of the video.... It doesn't look like any bug I've ever seen, ......yet?

 

[moe.red]

I do not see pests in those shots.

I'm really struggling to understand this. For there to be an overnight drastic change like this, it is not that your nutes are a little off, or the PH is a little high. This is a SERIOUS stress response.

With the changes you made to the water, lets take a look tomorrow AM.

 

[moe.red]

N2.

Don’t give up on me.

I took this for you just now.



That is Han Solo death cookies by @Oldsog

I purposefully left that top cola in that weird lighting to test something.

That plant is as healthy in every way measurable as I can expect it to be. The rest is genetics. We will see she has a bit of bulking left to do.

You can do this too.

I’m afraid of your small water volume. Your rh sux but you are dealing with it. You are at altitude but I do not see any symptoms related to lack of oxygen.

I have no idea why your plant took a dive overnight. We are missing something. I’m still trying to figure what that is.

Any other hydro growers out there we could use an idea.

N2 if there is anything else you can tell us? Something happened 2 days ago and you got wasted and pissed in the res?

 

[IamN2pot]

I have kept the TDS between 280 and 330 (500 scale) since reducing it from 580 after the water change from the Bloom soup back to the 321 soup.
To recap, Things were going peachy after reducing the original full stregnth 321 from around 1100ppm to 450-500ppm range. THe plant was growing very well in the 321 soup @ 450-500 ppm. Changed over to the Bloom soup mix at 410 ppm, about 1/2 stregnth of the 'target' 950 ppm and by the end of the week, I noticed curling tips at most of the growth crowns. I changed the water out and back to the 321 @ 1/2 dose. I replaced the 410 ppm Bloom with 600 ppm 321 and things went plumb loco. That was last Thursday and by Friday morning she looked very fried, AGAIN! Thanks again @smoke for nailing the problem with your advice to cut the TDS in half. So, as I said, I lowered it to 300, it dropped over the past 2 days to 280, so today I refilled the res and raised it to 330. Six hours later and it's already dropped back down to 310, so if I was to venture a guess, I'd guess she's hungry. But that said, at 600 PPM, she fried. Here are some pictures from today. I also am seeing lime green tops with dark green veining on the upper leaves. See the pictures. Timing for those leaves growing would be about the time I switched to the Bloom soup, so I'm going to 'guess' that is related to the Bloom soup and the burn and reduction of nutes the past 3 days???

Correct me here, I'm thinking to raise the TDS back up to the 450-500 range, SLOWLY, say 50-70 ppm over a week???? Shouold I try to go any higher than 500ish?

On a good note, my "mother earth" gal looks green and lush, so it's all good!!! ....and cuts are rooting...





and some closer shots of the dark(er) veins. You can see it in the pictures above, but I tried to get it in some closeups.

 

[steamroller]

OK just me with zero real hydro experience throwing in my 2cents which may be worth less in todays economy.
I would let it be for now. Lots of changes. I know everyone likes as high PPM as the plant tolerates, and maybe having more available increases uptake. I do not know this.
I do know the plant consumed only 10PPM per day and think maybe letting it settle for a few more days and taking note of new growth may be helpful.
Again just me.

 

[Cool_Beans]

I've been watching this thread quietly in the corner, and for what it's worth dude, I am learning a lot of stuff here watching you go through this. Keep plugging away bro, I'm totally rooting for you to get some weed out of this bitch. Back to my corner..

 

[Bandit420]

I've been watching too and this is looking like severe phosphor burn to me. We all know about burnt tips being a sign but this is where they go beyond just the tip and twist the new growth because it's an active and intense burning and not the slow signs of minor burn. Bloom boosters with a high K number are known to do this regularly or could just be amped up bloom nutes and she's a very light feeder

 

[IamN2pot]

I've been watching too and this is looking like severe phosphor burn to me. We all know about burnt tips being a sign but this is where they go beyond just the tip and twist the new growth because it's an active and intense burning and not the slow signs of minor burn. Bloom boosters with a high K number are known to do this regularly or could just be amped up bloom nutes and she's a very light feeder

That would make sense since the Bloom is a 10-30-20. Chauk full of Phosphorus. Mind you all, noob here didn't move her into Jack's "target" 1200 TDS for Bloom, it was 1/2. So even at <600 (1.2EC), it is appearently to much of a jump from the 321 @ 450-500 ppm (.9-1EC), especially the bump in P. That's my best guess, emphisis on GUESS!

FTR, I made up a fresh gallon of 321 soup @ Jack's feed schedule, 3.79/2.52/.99 with .6 potassium sillicate. pH'ed down to 5.8 and added about 40oz to top off the res and to raise it from 280 to 330ppm. That was at 9 this morning. I just raised the pH from 5.6, for the 2nd time, and the TDS has dropped to 290. WHAT??? The suggestion box is OPEN!

 

[IamN2pot]

...and I think I just answered my own question about the 'green veining'. If it was on my earth grow, I'd be thinking Nitrogen. So I did a search and Dr. Google says it's N deficiency. That also fits into the soup change to Bloom 10-30-20. It has the least amount of N.
Grrrrr, if that turns out to be a lucky guess and is correct, I'm gonna be an unhappy camper....

 

[moe.red]

I have to say, I've made a ton of mistakes trying to push the envelope. I have never had plants that look like this. They are like severe chemical burns.

I agree with the less is more directions above. I cannot tell you precisely what went wrong, but somehow that water got way too potent for the plant.

Are you using JAcks on the soil plant too?

 

[Member Requested Deletion]

I left soil for my new mistress, rdwc. Best thing I ever did for my growing my own meds

Go for it Mosh! Love watching folks see the fruits of such fast gardening the same way I am seeing for myself!

Funny Story, Im strictly an outdoor compost grower and came across this RDWC post . ive seen this term before and just kept scrolling. Well today i googled it and realize this is exactly what i was doing back in 1979. Did not know of anyone doing this back then. Now you can just buy the setup. Back then I had to mcgiever it all.

 

[IamN2pot]

Are you using JAcks on the soil plant too?

Absolutly NOT! "Mother earth" plant is just one more in my 3 years of recent JAWS grows (Supersoil). JAWS, is a Just Add Water System of supersoil and that's what I named it, or in my case, just add water STUPID . It has had nothing but RO with GH Cal-Mag @ 1ml per liter and that puts my pH at 6.3. That's all!!! and beautiful, lush green plant. No muss, no fuss!!!
I do get extreemly agrivated with myself when I forget to check it and jaw, stupid!

I also want to repeat myself and once again THANK @Moe.Red , @smoke ,@SweetLeafGrow ,@steamroller and ALL who have commented and contributed to this attempt to teach this old dog a new trick!!!

...and speaking of new tricks, I had another surprise this morning. Hydrophonics, the experiance that keeps on giving, LOL! The pH went up overnight. Never what I expect in that reservoir. After watching it fall all day yesterday, I ph uped it last night about 9PM from 5.7 to 5.8 after 2 previous pH'up during the day. Got up this morning and got out there as the lights came on at 7AM, pH was at 6.1. pH downed it to 5.8. The TDS was down to 280 as well, so, I added 32oz of my full stregnth 1100ppm Jack's 321 to topoff the res and it raised the ppm to 330. What a roller coaster, but roller coasters are fun, right?

Here are todays sad, burnt pictures. IMO, she is rapidly recovering from the overdose burn. I did find a picture I posted in a previous post from Sun, the 16th, 4 days after I switched from the 321 to the Bloom (10-30-20) and when I zoom in on the top growing tip, you can see the newest growth already begining to twist and deform. Then I switched back to the 321 @ 150ppm more (450 to 600) and that only exastrabated the problem. Well, that's what I think anyways...
Original picture:
...and the blow-up of the top, begining to twist, curl and contort. IMO from the Bloom soup.



and from today, the crispy water weed.



I can't forget to show Mother Earth.



I went to take a short video of my BlueLab reading. Confound-it, the TDS has already dropped 20 points in 2 hours.
Does that indicate it want's more??

View attachment VID_20230425_085744.mp4


and on a happy note, remember my Tripod that was a male? Well, meet Mrs. Tripod. She'll be transplanted later today!
She is a cut I found on Mother Earth. The other 3 cuts are from Mrs. Water Weed. I only took them last week.
View attachment VID_20230425_090010.mp4

 

[SweetLeafGrow]

Dang bro, sorry I cannot be more help with that hydro plant, never seen that either. You soil plant looks stellar!

 

[moe.red]

I'm encouraged by your new growth.

Personally I think the slight PH adjustments are not necessary. I kinda like to see the macro trends as information.