A sneek peek deep into N2's garden thread

[IamN2pot]

Well, for what it's worth, the problem doesn't lie with the information I receive here, that's for sure. As for the 'instructions', and I use that term tongue and cheek, on the Jack's site, seems to me from my extreemly limited experiance, to be the quickist way to kill your plants. At most, 1/2 stregnth and in my case, I'm runnung at 1/4 recomended dosage, SERIOUSLY???
And appearantly, while I think that 'DWC' is growing cannabis in pure water, growing cannabis "Cannabis ...grown in pure water sources" isn't DWC, because if I/you use their dosage stregnth, it WILL kill my plant. Since when does "grown in pure water" not include DWC? Did I miss something? Well, since Jack's jacked up their formula to TDS readings that as far as I can tell, will fry and eventually kill in DWC. I guess that's when....DWC is in pure water, but growing in pure water is not DWC??? I'm confussed if that's true??? LOL, but then I'm so easily confussed.

NO, I AM NOT HAPPY WITH JACK's! Given the proper instructions for use, it might not be a bad product, but using it according to "Jack's" target TDS is suicidal. That is what really PISSES me off! Lying, scamming POS! IMO. So let me pose a question to my fellow true life experianced growers. How much actual marijuana growing experiance, research and development on real cannabis, can Jack's actually do in Penn? I mean do they have fields of test hemp? If so, I stand corrected, but simple common sense and my experiance tells me a differant story.

 

[IamN2pot]

I'm encouraged by your new growth.

Personally I think the slight PH adjustments are not necessary. I kinda like to see the macro trends as information.

THanks for the input, Moe. Can you give me some numbers? 5.8 is the target, so when should I re-adjust the pH to the target? and perhaps it's more about time, how long should I wait before adjusting???

...and for my follow-up questions, LOL, TDS? Should I stay in the 300-350 range until/unless I see signs of deficiency? or should I begin raising it into the 450-500 range, unless I start seeing signs of 'new' tip burn.

I don't think I even want to try and explore TDS ranges much over 500 (1.0EC). I'm seeing the results of 600ppm right now, and it's not so good...

 

[SweetLeafGrow]

Can you give me some numbers? 5.8 is the target, so when should I re-adjust the pH to the target?

As far as hydro pH numbers, you are safe between 5.4 and 6.1. I will let it drift where it's going to go and when it gets out of that range, I will adjust.

 

[moe.red]

Agree with SLG on PH. 6.5 for a day will not hurt your plant. Running it there the whole time will. Same with 4.5. Although a sudden change should set off alarms.

You have had problems with JAcks from day one starting with a bag of goo. I do not blame you one bit for being skeptical on this stuff. If you want to switch today, there are lots of growers here that have GH trio experience, it is more forgiving I would say. A small bottle of each would probably get you thru this grow if you want to change out. I get it.

 

[Moshmen]

Well, for what it's worth, the problem doesn't lie with the information I receive here, that's for sure. As for the 'instructions', and I use that term tongue and cheek, on the Jack's site, seems to me from my extreemly limited experiance, to be the quickist way to kill your plants. At most, 1/2 stregnth and in my case, I'm runnung at 1/4 recomended dosage, SERIOUSLY???
And appearantly, while I think that 'DWC' is growing cannabis in pure water, growing cannabis "Cannabis ...grown in pure water sources" isn't DWC, because if I/you use their dosage stregnth, it WILL kill my plant. Since when does "grown in pure water" not include DWC? Did I miss something? Well, since Jack's jacked up their formula to TDS readings that as far as I can tell, will fry and eventually kill in DWC. I guess that's when....DWC is in pure water, but growing in pure water is not DWC??? I'm confussed if that's true??? LOL, but then I'm so easily confussed.

NO, I AM NOT HAPPY WITH JACK's! Given the proper instructions for use, it might not be a bad product, but using it according to "Jack's" target TDS is suicidal. That is what really PISSES me off! Lying, scamming POS! IMO. So let me pose a question to my fellow true life experianced growers. How much actual marijuana growing experiance, research and development on real cannabis, can Jack's actually do in Penn? I mean do they have fields of test hemp? If so, I stand corrected, but simple common sense and my experiance tells me a differant story.
View attachment 1312

I do bout cannabis research but jacks has been around for long time before jacks peters professional, I used in the 80’s

 

[Bandit420]

Well, for what it's worth, the problem doesn't lie with the information I receive here, that's for sure. As for the 'instructions', and I use that term tongue and cheek, on the Jack's site, seems to me from my extreemly limited experiance, to be the quickist way to kill your plants. At most, 1/2 stregnth and in my case, I'm runnung at 1/4 recomended dosage, SERIOUSLY???
And appearantly, while I think that 'DWC' is growing cannabis in pure water, growing cannabis "Cannabis ...grown in pure water sources" isn't DWC, because if I/you use their dosage stregnth, it WILL kill my plant. Since when does "grown in pure water" not include DWC? Did I miss something? Well, since Jack's jacked up their formula to TDS readings that as far as I can tell, will fry and eventually kill in DWC. I guess that's when....DWC is in pure water, but growing in pure water is not DWC??? I'm confussed if that's true??? LOL, but then I'm so easily confussed.

NO, I AM NOT HAPPY WITH JACK's! Given the proper instructions for use, it might not be a bad product, but using it according to "Jack's" target TDS is suicidal. That is what really PISSES me off! Lying, scamming POS! IMO. So let me pose a question to my fellow true life experianced growers. How much actual marijuana growing experiance, research and development on real cannabis, can Jack's actually do in Penn? I mean do they have fields of test hemp? If so, I stand corrected, but simple common sense and my experiance tells me a differant story.
View attachment 1312

Jacks has been giving growers fits for years Man. There used to be a deal where it had to be mixed in hot water. Not sure if that's still a thing.
Some of this will come with experience using different things but hot NPK's like that are usually for outdoor plants that are very large or your common heavy feeding veggie garden. Indoors you rarely if ever need anything above single digit NPKs. Cannabis is not the food hog nute companies make it out to be. Most feed charts are better served as toilet paper as well.
A good rule of thumb is always start at 1/4 dose or lower and stay on it until the ladies ask for more. It's always easier to give more than take excess back. After a while you'll be surprised just how little food supply or how mild of a supply cannabis thrives on.
Personally I'm a minimalist when it comes to feeding. So much so my gardens have been nursing off the same gallon size jug of food for 4 years because I never go over half strength and only actually do a food laden soil drench one time during flowering, usually around week 4-5

 

[IamN2pot]

I do bout cannabis research but jacks has been around for long time before jacks peters professional, I used in the 80’s

That's hilarious. I was using Peters Porfessional Potting Soil in the late 80's for my first major indoor grow. It beat the heck out of Miracle Grow. Oh, and since Moe mentioned General Hydro nutes, I did a quick Google. I thought their (GH) parrent company was Monsanto. Nope, it's Scotts, Miracle Grow. That's halirious!!!

https://www.bizjournals.com/columbus/news/2015/04/03/scotts-jumps-into-the-marijuana-business-with-deal.html

https://generalhydroponics.com/our-story/

...and for anyone reading this that doesn't know what "bag of goo" Moe was refering to, here is a testament to their quality control.
May I present Jack's Clone 15-6-17 dry powder nutrient. Talk about first impressions......Hahahaha! POS!

 

[IamN2pot]

Last Thursday I was wondering why my plant was frying and dieing. This Thursday, through no fault of my own, I am lovin the new green growth. Thanks guys!!!

I did a defoliation on both plants and tied down to spread out Mother Earth so I would have a more open and level canopy. I took a picture of each plant and one of a pair of tops growing next to each other. Can you tell which one is Water Weed and which one is Mother Earth? LOL!!! ...well, the new growth looks good. Especially on top of the fried leaves.
I am still hopefull that since they are only 14 days into 12/12 that she still has time to fully recover and grow me some nice flowers. Only time will tell, but I thought it would be nice to watch the 2 side by side buds as they develope.

FTR: pH - 5.9 TDS - 330(500scale) Water temp - 68/69*

 

[IamN2pot]

Fun with puns...

I don't want to cloud up the water, so in an effort to clear things up and try to help others avoid frying plants with Jack's, I've done some real soul searching. Remember how in the cop shows the detective always make the comment, "no matter how insignificant or minute it seems". OK, here goes. I still feel like the chem burn was from the 600ppm (1.2EC) and is what caused the major damage, but I did change my normal mixing method in that water change and did notice something I hadn't noticed before.
I wanted 6 gallons for the water change at 600ppm, so the plan was to mix 3 gallons at Jack's "target" stregnth (1200ppm, 2.4EC) in 3 Gal of RO and dilute by half with 3 gal of pure RO. Sound good, right? Anyway, for 6 gallons of water @Moe.Red 's suggested .6gr pr gal of Potasium Silicate = 3.6gr that I put into the 3 gallons of RO. Add the 3 x 3.79 of A, 3 x .99 of Epsom and last added the 3 x 2.52 of B and things got cloudy, as you will see. I didn't really even notice it until I added the Phosphoric Acid to pH down it and then I noticed the water clear up.
Like I said, I don't know if the additional silicate caused some sort of reaction or what, but I never had the clouding issue before I doubled up the silicate in the mix, trying to skip adding 1.8gr to one 3 gal bucket and 1.8gr to the other.

Last thing I want is for someone else to have to experiance frying their pride and joys. So without trying to cloud up the water any more, LOL!!!! here is a repeat of the experiment, scaled down to 1/2 gal.
FTR: 1/2gal RO
+ .6gr siliscate
+ 1.9gr A
+ .49gr Ep
+ 1.26 B (not cloudy until B is added)
= cloudy
+ .5ml pH down and voila, clear soup

Working with one hand while videoing,,,,, geezzzz.

View attachment VID_20230428_091239.mp4

 

[Moshmen]

Def look a lot happier nice work !

 

[IamN2pot]

Def look a lot happier nice work !

Not any credit for the recovery due me, thanks to Moe and Smoke and others for saving her!!!!! Me and Jack's have done our darn'est to kill her.

 

[moe.red]

I love the WHAAAAT at the end.

You are doing it right man. The silica would clear up over time on it's own, the PH down just speeds it up. The 2 together combine into a new substance. You are seeing that reaction real time. And now that solution, once you adjust it to the correct PH, will be resistant to future PH changes. Exactly what you want.

Great job on the recovery. That old burnt up shit can get pulled off now if you want, there is no benefit left in those leaves.

 

[IamN2pot]

WHAAAT!, ....I was seriously surprised that it had repeated, exactly what had happened when I mixed the pH down into the soup she's in now.

She is still continually dropping in pH. Some days alot more than others. Usually from .2 - 1.2, and the smaller drops are always at night. Yesterday I checked it at 6:30, before the light came on and it was at 5.7. Went back to bed. Light comes on at 7AM. I went out to check again at 11AM and the pH had dropped to 4.6. Plant and roots looked and smelled fine, so I re-adjusted it and checked every couple hours. She dropped once from 5.8 to 5.4 and as the lights went out at 7PM, zshe had dropped from 5.8 to 5.6. This morning, she had only dropped from 5.8 to 5.6 so I let it ride until 9. She was at 5.4, so I pH up'ed it again.
I also did a defoliation on her and took a pic of the leaves, from before frying to mostly fried. I still wonder if the dark veined ones have N def, from the 10-30-20 Bloom???

Mother Earth, lookin fine!
(burnt leaves in the forground are Water Weed's)


...and here is Water weed. Look closely at the main top. She is doing some sort of quad thing. Yep, 4 leaves per internode. ... daaaa oooohhhh weird!!!!



View attachment VID_20230430_103645.mp4

Leaves I picked while defoliating. Oh my Budda!!! From before adding Bloom to after adding 600ppm 321. Currently my TDS is 330 and Jacks target is 1200.

 

[IamN2pot]

Oops, forgot to add a picture of side by side buds. Here they are, earth and water, .....and the water pH has dropped again. W H Y ????

 

[IamN2pot]

To change or not to change?,
the water, that's the question! She has been drinking about 1/2 gal a day.
pH continuously drops, so I guess that's OK? I just add pH up every 2-4 hours while the light is on and before they come on in the early morning.
TDS I've been keeping in the 320-350 range (.6-.7EC)
Roots look and smell fne.
So why change out the water? I have new growth tip burn, or at least that's what I think it is. Pictures are below.
Should I give her a fresh batch of 321 soup in the 270-300 range?
Does she need any Cal/Mag?
Does her caretaker just need to take a chill pill? OK, chill PUFF!

If it were my soil grow, I'd stop any nutes I might be adding and if nothing was being added, I'd be watching it closely and ready to give it a light flush. Those tips would be telling me that the soil would be border line to hot.

What do you think @smoke, @Moe.Red and anyone else with their experiance to add??? Change the water to a lower TDS? or just add RO to lower the TDS or something else, like Cal/Mag??? Thanks!

 

[moe.red]

Ph dropping is caused by a few things. I have never grown in such a small water supply and I have for sure never adjusted as much as you are. I think some of this has been chasing your tail. Some has been due to the small water bolume. Some had been due to nute imbalance. I also wonder if there are some problems with the roots like there are with the leaves. Necrotic root tissue will cause ph drop.

I feel inadequate to advise you because this is just all over the place and I don’t feel certain about any answer I would give.

I THINK you should continue at low ppm.

Being that you have changed out the soup multiple times I think I would not do that again today. We need this girl to settle in a bit. Balance rather than see saw.

 

[IamN2pot]

Ph dropping is caused by a few things. I have never grown in such a small water supply and I have for sure never adjusted as much as you are. I think some of this has been chasing your tail. Some has been due to the small water bolume. Some had been due to nute imbalance. I also wonder if there are some problems with the roots like there are with the leaves. Necrotic root tissue will cause ph drop.

I feel inadequate to advise you because this is just all over the place and I don’t feel certain about any answer I would give.

I THINK you should continue at low ppm.

Being that you have changed out the soup multiple times I think I would not do that again today. We need this girl to settle in a bit. Balance rather than see saw.

THanks Moe, I can do that, the low ppm thing you suggest with the soup she's in. This morning I added a 1/2 gal of pure RO. In this little 5-6 gal system, that's what?, 8-10%. Very surprised it only dropped my ppm from 330 to 320. That ain't the 8-10% drop in TDS I expected from adding 8-10% pure RO to the res??? This evening, she is still at 320ppm.
FTR: NOTHING FRIED, it's all good today!!! I adjusted pH 4 times today. This morning from 5.6 to 5.8 for the days starting point at 7AM. 11AM pH had come down .4 to 5.4 , so back up to 5.8. Again at 2:30 and the pH was down .3, to 5.5, so adjuster back up to 5.8. Checked at light's out, 7AM and she was down .5-.6, with the meter blinking back and forth from 5.3 to 5.2 and back. So add .4 plus .3 plus .5 and she dropped 1.2 points over the day. Nights seem to be completely differant. It's never drops more than .3 over night, usually only .2, to 5.6.

I'll just add pure RO again in the morning to top up the res, and see if my TDS drops more than 10.
Roots 'look' good/OK to me and the smell reminds me a bit of my finished, fresh compost. It's a healthy, earthy smell to me.

 

[IamN2pot]

Todays update continues much as yesterday. pH was at 5.5 this morning, so I added the additional 1/2 gal of RO w/Orca and adjusted the pH to 5.8. The TDS dropped from 330 to 310. I didn't check it again until after lunch, about 2:30 and the pH was down to 5.0. GRRR!!! and the TDS was up to 320. SERIOUSLY? Oh well.
I started thinking, ...so watch out!!! She is drinking water and dropping the pH, but no nutes over the past 2 days. As I recall, pH to low means certain nutes aren't available, pH to high and others aren't. Since my soup hasn't been above 5.9pH, and spent alot of time below 5.6, I figured I'd give her a pH boost. So after raising her to 5.8 at 2:30, about 4:00 I raised her to 6.1 and I added another 1/2 gal of RO so the PPM dropped to 310, again. At 7, lights out, I took her from 6.0 to 6.2 and the ppm was up to 320 . I'll see what the meters read in the morning. I'm hopeful she will start eating again and the TDS will start falling and not just the pH and water level.

Todays good news, I've spotted trichomes on her...

 

[IamN2pot]

This mornings meter check for pH was as expected, a .2-.3 drop, from 6.2 down to a blinking 5.9 to 6.0 and back and forth.
The TDS was a pleasant surprise, I think. It was down to 310 , from 320 while the water level also dropped, about 2 cups (16oz) overnight.

I took some pictures of it's rather massive rootball for examination by the pro's. I don't personally see anything that looks problematic, but that's easy to say when you don't really know what to look out for, especially what to look for in the way of root shock, or what Moe said: from the 321 to Bloom to 321 fried leaves fiasco.

Necrotic root tissue will cause ph drop.

Let me know what you think? They definitely look like roots, to me!!!!





I also took pics of the top of her as well as a side by side bud development picture of her next to the dirt plant. That picture brings up another subject. Notice that the Water leaves are greener than the Earth leaves? I'm thinking it's time to feed her. Actually, I'm pretty sure she can use a good feed at this point. Under my normal 4 plant per tent grow, I get about 150gr pr plant and I can push a 5 gallon fabric pot through to harvest with just water. But since this grow, I pushed Mother Earth an extra 7-10 days in veg, expecting something around 250-300gr from her, she will need some additional feeding.
I think I'll do a top dressing of straight Supersoil, about 1" deep and see if that won't green her back up and get her through the rest of her bloom.
I'm also GUESSING that the reason the Water gal is behind in flowering is more due to environment, because of the nute burn, and not so much due to it being a differant pheno from her sister. But untill I do a side by side in the same growing medium, I'm just guessing about that.
What do you think?

Top of Water Weed:



and the side by side, Earth and Water.

 

[smoke]

Root structure looks good, hairy roots are happy roots.

Your scaring me with your low ppms because the numbers your feeding is where i feed. The sweet spot for me around week 2 of flower seems to be around 420 on the 700 scale which is 300 on your 500 scale.

Looking good btw. Calcium needs increase starting where you are now. I think your at 1 per gal now i would add to that by half.

 

[IamN2pot]

Calcium needs increase starting where you are now. I think your at 1 per gal now i would add to that by half.

You lost me there, Smoke. What do you mean by "at 1 per gal"?
Are you suggesting Cal-Mag? I haven't ever added any C/M to the RDWC.
I do add 1ml per liter to the RO I water the earth plant with. Should I start adding it to the Jack's 321 the RDWC is in?

 

[smoke]

You lost me there, Smoke. What do you mean by "at 1 per gal"?
Are you suggesting Cal-Mag? I haven't ever added any C/M to the RDWC.
I do add 1ml per liter to the RO I water the earth plant with. Should I start adding it to the Jack's 321 the RDWC is in?

My mistake. When you ro your water your striping everything out of the water.

The way i do things is i take ro water add calmag to bring water to 180 ppms then add my nutrients. 180 ppms works out to approximately 3ml or 3cc per gal of water so what your adding to the soil grow @1ml/liter is what you should be given your hydro as well.

 

[IamN2pot]

OK. I knew the General Hydro feed schedule calls for Cal-Mag, but since no one has mentioned adding it, I just suposed it was in the 321 mix. Again, what I get for reading Jacks website. Excuse me, but doesn't it say on the website that the 321 feed schedule I'm theoreticlly following is for pure (translate RO) water? Oh yes, look what it says , here

Targeted to achieve the optimal nutrient balance for water sources that have low concentrations of calcium and magnesium (40 ppm Ca/Mg or less).

Just curious, if one reads the entire statement I linked to, am I crazy to read that statement and think that Cal-Mag is in the bag(s) of nutes I mix from them????

Smoke, who's nutes are you using?
FTR, my 300-330ppm is without any Cal-Mag. It's purely 321 ...and the Pot/silicate and bennies added.

@Moe.Red , can I ask for a second opinion? I know you were concerned about Cal back on page 2. Is this the same concern as Smoke has??? Have I been missing this?

We need to watch for sorta rust spots on the fan leaves now would be the time a calcium deficiency would occur if it is going to.

Either way, it's all good. I have GH Cal-Mag and I know how to use it, LOL!!! ...and now I have personal advice on how much to use.

Oh yes, and the pH continues to drop, about .1 per hour while the lights are on. Just sayin....

 

[moe.red]

There is calcium and magnesium in Jacks. I'm not home at the moment to look at my bags, but I think you will find it there.

Cal-Mag is easy and convenient. Putting the 2 together is a good way of avoiding lockout (see mulder's chart)

When I had a cal deficiency show up when I flipped to flower on this current run, even tho I had been running all Jacks up to that point, I found it better to add cal-mag. Within a day the problem was gone.

Some plants are just calcium hogs.

 

[smoke]

OK. I knew the General Hydro feed schedule calls for Cal-Mag, but since no one has mentioned adding it, I just suposed it was in the 321 mix. Again, what I get for reading Jacks website. Excuse me, but doesn't it say on the website that the 321 feed schedule I'm theoreticlly following is for pure (translate RO) water? Oh yes, look what it says , here

Just curious, if one reads the entire statement I linked to, am I crazy to read that statement and think that Cal-Mag is in the bag(s) of nutes I mix from them????

Smoke, who's nutes are you using?
FTR, my 300-330ppm is without any Cal-Mag. It's purely 321 ...and the Pot/silicate and bennies added.

@Moe.Red , can I ask for a second opinion? I know you were concerned about Cal back on page 2. Is this the same concern as Smoke has??? Have I been missing this?


Either way, it's all good. I have GH Cal-Mag and I know how to use it, LOL!!! ...and now I have personal advice on how much to use.

Oh yes, and the pH continues to drop, about .1 per hour while the lights are on. Just sayin....

Im using Gh 3 part

 

[moe.red]

Im using Gh 3 part

Hey smoke how’s things? No stomach bug I hope.

Slg texted me some pics of the wilderness you guys pass thru up there on his trip to see you. I really want to get to Montana some day. Can’t get enough of Taylor Sheridan and that whole Yellowstone series.

 

[smoke]

Hey smoke how’s things? No stomach bug I hope.

Slg texted me some pics of the wilderness you guys pass thru up there on his trip to see you. I really want to get to Montana some day. Can’t get enough of Taylor Sheridan and that whole Yellowstone series.

No bug here, just the normal stuff. Slg lives out in the boonies im closer to civilization but still have my space. I live in a subdivision on 7 acres but still have my privacy. Basically anyone is welcome to stop by for a free oz and are welcome to stay for as long as they want or until i kick the out.

Edit: wife corrected me again! Thats 5.88 acres

 

[moe.red]

I know that. Same. Except I give out elbows lol

 

[smoke]

I know that. Same. Except I give out elbows lol

Montana law says i can't give away elbows all at once

 

[moe.red]

Thought you guys made your own laws up there. I imagine you walking around the grow room with a 6 shooter on your hip.