A sneek peek deep into N2's garden thread

[Rootsruler]

Your leaves are beginning to "sawtooth" on the edges from the pics. Do you have your fan directly blowing on them?

 

[IamN2pot]

Your leaves are beginning to "sawtooth" on the edges from the pics. Do you have your fan directly blowing on them?

Nope. One blowing over the top of the lamp and one circulating on the floor.

 

[IamN2pot]

pH has gone wonky, again. This morning she had dropped from 6.0 at lights out to 4.5 at lights on. pH'ed it up to 6.0, at 7:AM. 10AM it was back down to 5.2. So, I've been pH'ing it up all day. I'm thinking a water change may be in order? Roots look and smell fine on the underside and above ground, she is nice and green.
She is actually looking better than Earth is right now. Earth is getting light, lime green, on top again. So tonight I gave here an additional dose of 1/2 gram of Epsom in it's RO + Cal-Mag water. We'll see if it's a Mag issue, I'm also leaning towards perhaps an Iron issue??? Earth is showing purple eadged leaves in the tops of the flowers. NICE!

I'll get pictures up tomorrow morning when the lights come on. Earth is also showing some small pinhead rust spots on a few of the older leaves. Just old age???

 

[IamN2pot]

Good morning fellow horticulturist! Another day, another adventure in RDWC. Can someone tell me which way is UP this morning?

Friday night she drops her pH from 6.0 to 4.5, so I pH up back to 6.0. All day she drops like a stone. OK!
Sat night, last night I set her at 6.2 at 7M. 10M it's time for bed so one last check. pH was 5.8, so raised it to 6.2. THis morning, 6:AM and the frickin thing is at 6.4pH. I give up! ... I mean when I was a much younger sprout, I loved roller coasters. I loved riding motorcycles and flying in open cockpit ultra lights and powered paragliders. 3D movement through the air, up and down, round and round. THe thrill was exhilarating, BACK WHEN!

These days I'm quite content to remain safely in the 2D world of caged transportation. I've moved from crazyness on my Harley Davidsons and ultralights to hyper miling in my 2010 Prius. The rollercoaster that has been my ride on this RDWC ride, well, to be honest, is doing what a rollercoaster ride should do an old man, turn my stomach .
Yes, I'll do my best to finish this RDWC ride, without hurling, LOL!!! But, I won't be getting back in line for any RDWC re-ride!!!

A few picture from 20 years ago: LOL, my, my, amazing what balding, gray and a full beard can do to change one's appearance. I wouldn't even recognise me if I didn't know it was me.
Ready for take off:


in flight:


after landing (exactly what I looked like this morning after seeing my pH reading)


Times change! These days I prefer to fly without leaving the ground, or at least in a plane I'm NOT the pilot of. That said, the view from up there is beautiful! Cut the motor and perfect silience with the wind in my face for the slow glide back down to earth.
This is from over lake Pleasant, Phoenix, AZ.



Back on task. THe light just came on in the garden. Time for some relevant pictures.

 

[moe.red]

I don't blame you, this has been a challenge for you from day one.

 

[steamroller]

IMO this all about the water.
When I RO and DI my water which is only 7.6ph/2-3KH and 9GH only the pH moves more than .5~!
Even using RO I think your KH is whats swinging you in the wind.
Unfortunately I have never been able to manipulate KH without moving all the other parameters in a greater proportion.
We need to find you 'a middle of the road ' for your water.
Maybe @Aqua Man has the knowledge..
He was born in water I heard~!
And whicked cool with the ultralight!
I live at the end of a runway[ no joke] and besides the summer lear jets for the ponies we have gliders going over us all the time.
One day I will ride in one. They offer it ~!

 

[IamN2pot]

...
And whicked cool with the ultralight!
I live at the end of a runway[ no joke] and besides the summer lear jets for the ponies we have gliders going over us all the time.
One day I will ride in one. They offer it ~!

Warning: the wife gave me a 1 hour flight for my 45th b-day. As I recall, those pics are from my 46th b-day.
...just sayin....

...and perhaps Aqua can give me some advice to stop the teeter totter pH. Steam, you lost me at the 7.6pH/??????

I think your KH is whats swinging you in the wind.

Well, I know by my age pretty much what I have, "swinging in the wind", but I've never heard it called my KH?


Here are this mornings pics and I hope my KH isn't showing???
Side by side. Note the Earth tops are more lime green now, again. I thought my top dressing from last week has fixed that? or is this something new, or just starting to see old age set in. The hairs on Earth also began to change from white to red last week as well as the stem beginning to purple up. Hmmm?


A top shot of Earth showing the purple edging of the leaves on the bud just starting. Looks better to the naked eye.


...and my lower leaf issue. First the red dots. Sorry for the picture quality. I hope you can see what are red, rust colored dots in the close up.


...and what I'm pretty sure is the start of old age spots from another location on Earth.



I'll post this mornings pics of Water in a second post. Trying to keep issues seperate at this point.

 

[IamN2pot]

This mornigs pictures of Water, bottom and top.


...this branch, up close.




...and whatever??? Same shot, one in Macro mode (dark green) and the same shot in Photo mode (lime green). Just another day on the homestead.

 

[Aqua Man]

So ph can swing more simply due to a small volume if water. A bigger res may help.

KH is carbonate hardness this is the buffering ability if the water. GH is general hardness and is a measurement of things like calcium and magnesium in your water. KH (also known as dkh) is what we want to manipulate.

Now if we increase the KH (carbonate hardness) the GH (general hardness) will also increase. But it doesn’t always work the same for GH. We can increase the GH and that doesn’t mean we increase the KH.

You need a minimum of 4kh to have any chance of PH stability. In aquatics generally 4kh is a good standard but for us we want between 4 to about 8 kh.

So silicates like potassium silicate) not silica, silicon or silicic acid) , carbonates like calcium carbonate and bicarbonates will all increase KH. Things like cal mag almost always will not increase KH but will increase GH. This is because they are made from sources like magnesium sulphate (will lower PH as sulphur does) and calcium nitrate… calcium carbonate will increase KH and calcium nitrate will not.

So imo you need to add some KH to your system and possibly increase the size of your res

 

[smoke]

Rust spots, mag def imo, not to worry about but i would give her more.

Ph swings something may be going on, in my room before auto dosing for ph i would reset everything and if things continued i would just keep adjusting ph as needed. You don't have much water your working with so swings in your system will react quicker than my 50 gal system.

I see aqua just responded ill go look before i finish

 

[Aqua Man]

RO will have almost no KH or GH so if using then not only do you need to add cal mag (unless nutrients are designed for RO) you will need to add a buffer of silicate, carbonate or bicarbonate.

Some nutrients designed for RO will contain the needed KH and the need GH (cal, mag)

 

[smoke]

This mornigs pictures of Water, bottom and top.
View attachment 2452

...this branch, up close.
View attachment 2453
View attachment 2454


...and whatever??? Same shot, one in Macro mode (dark green) and the same shot in Photo mode (lime green). Just another day on the homestead.
View attachment 2454 View attachment 2455

Where you're pointing and say " this branch here

What are you asking

 

[steamroller]

So ph can swing more simply due to a small volume if water. A bigger res may help.
So imo you need to add some KH to your system and possibly increase the size of your res

This was discussed and I agree.
I think too many think increasing size of res is a big thing.
If you have the space to add another container for water a simple water bridge will work and requires nothing besides a syphon tube.
My 180 gallon fish has its filter in the basement. I used a nice premade wet/dry sump but wanted more volume for extended time in-between top offs so I added a 29 gallon tank and waterbridged it.
Works flawlessly for last 10+ years.
@IamN2pot do you have room to add another container?
We will get all set up if you do.

 

[IamN2pot]

Rust spots, mag def imo, not to worry about but i would give her more.

That's how I had those dots diagnosed, but a second opinion is always in order. I gave her an additional .5gr Epsom in her 1/2 gallon watering last night.

Where you're pointing and say " this branch here

What are you asking

Not really asking where I say, "...this branch, up close." I'm just pointing out the branch that the next picture was of, for refferance. I'm thinking that looks to me like a relitively heathly bud. Amazing to me with these wild pH swings, but as you say in your sig, "weed mostly grows"

...do you have room to add another container?
We will get all set up if you do.

I could make room, somewhere. But honestly, that would require my reconfiguring the current setup and unfortunatly for me, I just don't have the drive or interest in continuing down the hydro path. It has an expensive, worrysome and a general pain in the buttox to stay on top of. I got in WAY over my head, starting off with seed in a new system that I had, and still have, very little knowledge about. Perhaps you buys have setups that don't require constant monitoring and adjustments like mine does. But my point is MINE DOES, and I'm tired of it. I also have a system that only requires me to check and adjust it once a day, if that. Good ole earth.
As all of you know, without the wonderful help and advice I recieved from you guys, that plant would have been on the compost pile long ago. But thanks to your help and advice, I've come this far and am still very hopeful I'll at least get a harvest. But if it can't be done in my 10-12 gal system, I honestly don't want to add more capacity.

This whole thing started because I wanted to gain knowledge about hydro, and DWC in particular. I've certainly done that. I've also un-learned alot of nute manufacture feed schedules. And along the lines of learning things about hydro, a HUGE thanks to @Aqua Man for the detail and simple explaination of KH and GH.

KH is carbonate hardness this is the buffering ability if the water. GH is general hardness and is a measurement of things like calcium and magnesium in your water. KH (also known as dkh) is what we want to manipulate.

Question: you say KH can be adjusted with " potassium silicate) not silica, silicon or silicic acid) , carbonates like calcium carbonate and bicarbonates will all increase KH."
I'm guessing the Potassium Carbonate in GH pH up is in the GH catagory?

Lunch is waiting, YUM!!!

 

[Rootsruler]

I see a lot of newbs start in hydro when they read about the high yields, explosive growth, etc. I tell most newbs they should master dirt first then move on to hydro. I think hydro is a great way to grow.....but.....it requires more attention than dirt. I've run many successful hydro grows and I may eventually try one again but dirt is just so damn easy. It may not blow up like hydro but it'll get you to harvest with less issues than hydro.

In hydro you are basically God as you control and are responsible for every metric the plant needs. In dirt, you have a friend that can help you when you fuck up!!!

 

[moe.red]

That's how I had those dots diagnosed, but a second opinion is always in order. I gave her an additional .5gr Epsom in her 1/2 gallon watering last night.


Not really asking where I say, "...this branch, up close." I'm just pointing out the branch that the next picture was of, for refferance. I'm thinking that looks to me like a relitively heathly bud. Amazing to me with these wild pH swings, but as you say in your sig, "weed mostly grows"


I could make room, somewhere. But honestly, that would require my reconfiguring the current setup and unfortunatly for me, I just don't have the drive or interest in continuing down the hydro path. It has an expensive, worrysome and a general pain in the buttox to stay on top of. I got in WAY over my head, starting off with seed in a new system that I had, and still have, very little knowledge about. Perhaps you buys have setups that don't require constant monitoring and adjustments like mine does. But my point is MINE DOES, and I'm tired of it. I also have a system that only requires me to check and adjust it once a day, if that. Good ole earth.
As all of you know, without the wonderful help and advice I recieved from you guys, that plant would have been on the compost pile long ago. But thanks to your help and advice, I've come this far and am still very hopeful I'll at least get a harvest. But if it can't be done in my 10-12 gal system, I honestly don't want to add more capacity.

This whole thing started because I wanted to gain knowledge about hydro, and DWC in particular. I've certainly done that. I've also un-learned alot of nute manufacture feed schedules. And along the lines of learning things about hydro, a HUGE thanks to @Aqua Man for the detail and simple explaination of KH and GH.

Question: you say KH can be adjusted with " potassium silicate) not silica, silicon or silicic acid) , carbonates like calcium carbonate and bicarbonates will all increase KH."
I'm guessing the Potassium Carbonate in GH pH up is in the GH catagory?

Lunch is waiting, YUM!!!

I totally get it, hydro is not for everyone.

I think if I did not have my background in fish, I would be a dirt grower by default too.

 

[Aqua Man]

That's how I had those dots diagnosed, but a second opinion is always in order. I gave her an additional .5gr Epsom in her 1/2 gallon watering last night.


Not really asking where I say, "...this branch, up close." I'm just pointing out the branch that the next picture was of, for refferance. I'm thinking that looks to me like a relitively heathly bud. Amazing to me with these wild pH swings, but as you say in your sig, "weed mostly grows"


I could make room, somewhere. But honestly, that would require my reconfiguring the current setup and unfortunatly for me, I just don't have the drive or interest in continuing down the hydro path. It has an expensive, worrysome and a general pain in the buttox to stay on top of. I got in WAY over my head, starting off with seed in a new system that I had, and still have, very little knowledge about. Perhaps you buys have setups that don't require constant monitoring and adjustments like mine does. But my point is MINE DOES, and I'm tired of it. I also have a system that only requires me to check and adjust it once a day, if that. Good ole earth.
As all of you know, without the wonderful help and advice I recieved from you guys, that plant would have been on the compost pile long ago. But thanks to your help and advice, I've come this far and am still very hopeful I'll at least get a harvest. But if it can't be done in my 10-12 gal system, I honestly don't want to add more capacity.

This whole thing started because I wanted to gain knowledge about hydro, and DWC in particular. I've certainly done that. I've also un-learned alot of nute manufacture feed schedules. And along the lines of learning things about hydro, a HUGE thanks to @Aqua Man for the detail and simple explaination of KH and GH.

Question: you say KH can be adjusted with " potassium silicate) not silica, silicon or silicic acid) , carbonates like calcium carbonate and bicarbonates will all increase KH."
I'm guessing the Potassium Carbonate in GH pH up is in the GH catagory?

Lunch is waiting, YUM!!!

Nope its a carbonate so KH and GH but maybe not enough added.

 

[IamN2pot]

Nope its a carbonate so KH and GH but maybe not enough added.

Thanks for the info and encouragement from all. I've been using GH pH up, Potassium Carbonate about 50/50 with my Potasium Silicate for upping the pH. This evening I added 400% of what I normally add of Pot Silicate to the 1/2 gallon of top off water. I added 1.2gr rather than .3gr. Moe's recomended rate is .6gr pr gal. Then pH down with Phosphoric Acid to 6.2. I then added 1.5ml Cal-Mag, .5ml of Orca and 1ml Hydroguard. Check pH and it was 6.0 and added to the res.
I just checked, (again, LOL) and it has held at 6.0 for the past hour. Lights are going out now, so I'll wait to see what new surprise she'll have for me tomorrow morning.

 

[smoke]

That's how I had those dots diagnosed, but a second opinion is always in order. I gave her an additional .5gr Epsom in her 1/2 gallon watering last night.


Not really asking where I say, "...this branch, up close." I'm just pointing out the branch that the next picture was of, for refferance. I'm thinking that looks to me like a relitively heathly bud. Amazing to me with these wild pH swings, but as you say in your sig, "weed mostly grows"


I could make room, somewhere. But honestly, that would require my reconfiguring the current setup and unfortunatly for me, I just don't have the drive or interest in continuing down the hydro path. It has an expensive, worrysome and a general pain in the buttox to stay on top of. I got in WAY over my head, starting off with seed in a new system that I had, and still have, very little knowledge about. Perhaps you buys have setups that don't require constant monitoring and adjustments like mine does. But my point is MINE DOES, and I'm tired of it. I also have a system that only requires me to check and adjust it once a day, if that. Good ole earth.
As all of you know, without the wonderful help and advice I recieved from you guys, that plant would have been on the compost pile long ago. But thanks to your help and advice, I've come this far and am still very hopeful I'll at least get a harvest. But if it can't be done in my 10-12 gal system, I honestly don't want to add more capacity.

This whole thing started because I wanted to gain knowledge about hydro, and DWC in particular. I've certainly done that. I've also un-learned alot of nute manufacture feed schedules. And along the lines of learning things about hydro, a HUGE thanks to @Aqua Man for the detail and simple explaination of KH and GH.

Question: you say KH can be adjusted with " potassium silicate) not silica, silicon or silicic acid) , carbonates like calcium carbonate and bicarbonates will all increase KH."
I'm guessing the Potassium Carbonate in GH pH up is in the GH catagory?

Lunch is waiting, YUM!!!

DWC is probably the hardest way to grow in hydro imo and although you think your chasing your tail, i think you do have a grasp of what your doing. Running a 6 site rdwc i think you could nail it.

Something that confused me earlier was when you referenced your cal/mag rate in ml per liter and not ml/gal. I assumed someone from Colorado would be talking in ml/gal not per liter.

Never safe to assume.

 

[Aqua Man]

Thanks for the info and encouragement from all. I've been using GH pH up, Potassium Carbonate about 50/50 with my Potasium Silicate for upping the pH. This evening I added 400% of what I normally add of Pot Silicate to the 1/2 gallon of top off water. I added 1.2gr rather than .3gr. Moe's recomended rate is .6gr pr gal. Then pH down with Phosphoric Acid to 6.2. I then added 1.5ml Cal-Mag, .5ml of Orca and 1ml Hydroguard. Check pH and it was 6.0 and added to the res.
I just checked, (again, LOL) and it has held at 6.0 for the past hour. Lights are going out now, so I'll wait to see what new surprise she'll have for me tomorrow morning.

Hows that PH drift looking now?

 

[IamN2pot]

Something that confused me earlier was when you referenced your cal/mag rate in ml per liter and not ml/gal. I assumed someone from Colorado would be talking in ml/gal not per liter.

It's from having to convert in my head for 4 1/2 years in A-Dam. I had to learn to speak metric, LOL!!! The bottle has it in ml pr L and my filling pitcher is marked with quarts and liters, so.... it's all good.

Hows that PH drift looking now?

Funny you should ask After adding the additional Potassium Silicate last night, this mornings surprise was an overnight pH swing up of only .1, from 6.0 to 6.1, SWEET!
...and as the day has progressed, uh um, clears his throat.... by 8:30 - 5.8 and I let it continue to drift.
11:00 it had dropped to 5.4, so back up to 6.0.
I just checked again and the same song, 2nd verse . She was back down, flickering between 5.3 and 5.4, so another 3ml or so of GH pH up to get back to 6.0.
I just read your post Aqua, about how much pH swing is to much. No wonder I pH dizzy syndrome.

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budbuilders.org

I don't think I've had a single day that the pH hasn't swung more than .4, not since the seedling/early veg stage anyway.
LOL, I am just thinking out loud, ... how nice it would be to NOT have to check on the baby every 3 hours and change it's diaper with pH up, maybe someday...

1 more day closer to harvest, so it's all good!!!

 

[Aqua Man]

It's from having to convert in my head for 4 1/2 years in A-Dam. I had to learn to speak metric, LOL!!! The bottle has it in ml pr L and my filling pitcher is marked with quarts and liters, so.... it's all good.


Funny you should ask After adding the additional Potassium Silicate last night, this mornings surprise was an overnight pH swing up of only .1, from 6.0 to 6.1, SWEET!
...and as the day has progressed, uh um, clears his throat.... by 8:30 - 5.8 and I let it continue to drift.
11:00 it had dropped to 5.4, so back up to 6.0.
I just checked again and the same song, 2nd verse . She was back down, flickering between 5.3 and 5.4, so another 3ml or so of GH pH up to get back to 6.0.
I just read your post Aqua, about how much pH swing is to much. No wonder I pH dizzy syndrome.

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budbuilders.org

I don't think I've had a single day that the pH hasn't swung more than .4, not since the seedling/early veg stage anyway.
LOL, I am just thinking out loud, ... how nice it would be to NOT have to check on the baby every 3 hours and change it's diaper with pH up, maybe someday...

1 more day closer to harvest, so it's all good!!!

Yeah what the actual water volume your system holds? With big roots like that you are going to have mich less water and thats where a large res becomes necessary instead of a benefit.

 

[moe.red]

Yeah what the actual water volume your system holds? With big roots like that you are going to have mich less water and thats where a large res becomes necessary instead of a benefit.

So Smoke taught me a lesson about that. Measuring water displacement in his 13 gal buckets with the trees he grows, less than 5% displacement by the roots. Seems wrong, it looks like so much more. Counterintuitive for sure.

I think N2 has about 5 gallons or a little less to work with.

 

[IamN2pot]

Mother Earth:
This morning the leaf blotches were worse, so I'm not going to be bull headed here with a 'pure' JAWS. She is screaming for Phophorus (P) and the topdressing I did just isn't doing the job. So this morning I gave here a dose of Age Old Bloom (5-10-5). Here are pictures of the leaves showing P deficiency. The soup included RO, 2ml Cal-Mag, 7.5ml Age Old, pH down to 6.8 and ppm 700 (EC 1.4)
Hopefully, that does the trick and she doesn't continue getting worse with age. She should only be about 1/2 way through bloom, at 4+ weeks.

 

[Aqua Man]

So Smoke taught me a lesson about that. Measuring water displacement in his 13 gal buckets with the trees he grows, less than 5% displacement by the roots. Seems wrong, it looks like so much more. Counterintuitive for sure.

I think N2 has about 5 gallons or a little less to work with.

With that he will have to change water probably every 3 days. PH related or not because his nutrient ratios will go out fast and that maybe part of the problem

 

[IamN2pot]

I think N2 has about 5 gallons or a little less to work with.

When I filled her up with the current 321, I got about 2 cups over 5 1/2 gallons in the system and that's the mark I keep the res at.

 

[IamN2pot]

With that he will have to change water probably every 3 days. OH related or not because his nutrient ratios will go out fast and that maybe part of the problem

Then I'm only 23.4 water changes behind.

 

[IamN2pot]

..seriously, I have plenty of extra water ready to mix and replace what's in there. You tell me?????/

 

[Aqua Man]

..seriously, I have plenty of extra water ready to mix and replace what's in there. You tell me?????/

Try water changes every 3 days. Add about 150ppm worth if potassium silicate (can increase even more if needed but start there) as you can benefit from the potassium anyhow at this stage they absolutely gobble it up. Keep you nutrient ratios from transition to early flower to compensate

 

[IamN2pot]

Sorry @Aqua Man , I just want to be perfectly clear on my nute soup reciepe.
1. 150ppm pot sil - per gal of RO
2. pH down to 6.0 ish (will raise the ppm to ??)
3. add premixed 321 in amounts to raise the ppm to 450 (.9EC)
-or just add 300ppm (or more) of 321 mix???
4. add Orca, add Hydroguard
Do I need to add Cal-Mag, or is that already in the 321? If so, what step should I add it?

Thanks man!!!!!