Cloning variables

[ninjadip]

ok ok, i am not in "trouble" or anything like that, just curious.
I just started my cloning operation back up, and very curious about the varying time for cuts to root in aeroponics taken at the same time from the same plant, and about the same size. These were all taken at the same time, i think a week ago.

Just curious how some can differ so much. I have all 3 in the middle of the aeroponics so i don't think it's a matter of placement in the cloner relating to the sprayers and all that. This isn't any kind of urgent issue, just curious. Does everyone experience this amount of variance when making clones? I wonder if it is the amount of time i let the cut sit in the rooting gel... I can't really think of another variable. Same light, same nutrients, close enough to be the same aeroponic spray application, same mom, same day cut.

Going to tag @Moe.Red and @Aqua Man my two hydro gurus.

Slowest one:


second slowest:


best: rooted in 2-3 days



cloning environment: (the tall one is not one in the above pics, it was from an earlier cut) don't laugh at my beans popping lol,


Environment under, you can see there are zero issues with aeroponic spray coverage lol. BTW is there a better way to stabilize the sprayer than with how i have it weighted?

 

[moe.red]

I would imagine that with aeroponics, and maybe hydroponics, root trimming would be possible. Has anyone explored that?

Yeah, funny you should ask. Back many moons ago Aqua and I were playing with that privately when I was setting up fog initially. We could bottom the plant like we top them kinda thing.

Only did it once, and too many variables to know if it was effective. Need more study and experiments on this.

 

[freezeland]

It's slow as fuck.

Didn’t say it was fast. If you ain’t in a hurry who cares. Folks have been doing it that way long before all of today’s modern equipment came along.

 

[moe.red]

There are reasons to go fast. Sexing regs sooner. more turns in your growspace. Pheno hunting. Plant count restrictions. the list goes on.

There are reasons to go slow.

Being able to do either seems like the best position to find yourself in.

 

[Amnesia]

Does a plant have the energy to focus on root growth as well as vegetative growth? Or is the plant doing one or the other?

I recently did some reading about a possibly related topic: The importance of day/night cycles. Plants, as I recall, do different things during their dark period than they do during the light period. I can't recall all the specifics of what I read, but I did conclude that the dark period is important. In essence, what happens in one part of the cycle complements what happens in the other part of the cycle. A conclusion might be that the plant doesn't do everything at once.

 

[Aqua Man]

Didn’t say it was fast. If you ain’t in a hurry who cares. Folks have been doing it that way long before all of today’s modern equipment came along.

Think he is just stating a fact not trying to insult the method.

Nothing wrong with sticking to the script in time tested methods with proven results. But there are benefits i dont think its all about the hurry but rather to strive to maximize. So much depends on the time, money and effort you have to put in. Its what works best for you and your goals.

We all have different goals so naturally we have different opinions of whats best

 

[Amnesia]

I think I was about 10 grows in before I started to feel like I knew what i was doing. Still learning today. Hopefully that never ends.

I believe it. My first crop didn't finish because of a spider mite infestation. That lost crop has bothered me ever since. That wasn't just because I didn't get a harvest. I am also haunted by all the things I did wrong. I've done better since, but as you say, the learning will never end--and that's fine with me. My profile picture, by the way, is one of the colas from my current crop.

Seedlings are the fun part to me. Best advice I can give you on seedlings is make your lighting flexible, preferably with some spectrum control. I use spectrum to adjust for things like being leggy rather than PPFD. But I guess that is on the advanced side of the grow spectrum.

I like the sprout to flip time. It's fun to see them grow. Flowering, on the other hand, tests my patience.

I haven't had problems with long stems. Mostly, my problem is slow growth. I believe I've narrowed that down to the soil. I've pulled seedlings from their nursery cups to examine their roots and found minimal root growth. So, I've been looking for good soil for seedlings. I bought a bag of Light Warrior Seed Starter from Fox Farm that I'm eager to try.

 

[Amnesia]

We all have different goals so naturally we have different opinions of whats best

... and growing styles.

 

[Rootsruler]

Ive just never had luck that way
Seems too easy to mess up but i managed to mess it up lol

KISS

Start with a cut stuck in rooting powder or gel and stick it in a solo cup filled with soil. Can't get any more basic than that. I've had good luck this way and it's almost maintenance free.

 

[GoodShit97]

KISS

Start with a cut stuck in rooting powder or gel and stick it in a solo cup filled with soil. Can't get any more basic than that. I've had good luck this way and it's almost maintenance free.

Yeah im now using clonex and rapid rooter plugs. Ive had 100% success since i got my temps figured out.
Ill be going back to floraflex plugs though i liked those more.

Before i had clonex i just used cinnamon powder, not sure if it actually works like a rooting hormone as some say it does, but i definitely had success using it. Not 100%, but it worked.

 

[Aqua Man]

I recently did some reading about a possibly related topic: The importance of day/night cycles. Plants, as I recall, do different things during their dark period than they do during the light period. I can't recall all the specifics of what I read, but I did conclude that the dark period is important. In essence, what happens in one part of the cycle complements what happens in the other part of the cycle. A conclusion might be that the plant doesn't do everything at once.

Yeah and its just as important and beneficial to the soil. Different enzymes and metabolites are produced providing a more diverse food source which leads to a more diverse population of fungi and bacteria

 

[Observer]

Think he is just stating a fact not trying to insult the method.

Nothing wrong with sticking to the script in time tested methods with proven results. But there are benefits i dont think its all about the hurry but rather to strive to maximize. So much depends on the time, money and effort you have to put in. Its what works best for you and your goals.

We all have different goals so naturally we have different opinions of whats best

Indeed

 

[Shaded]

You know how a tap root on a seedling will grow until it reaches some resistance? I get the same kind of thing with dangling roots in fog. It seems to me the plant will grow roots faster at first until there is some resistance. Then they start to go wide.

When the roots are big and some resistance is reached, that seems to me when the veg growth really takes off. But now it has a huge root ball to service anything that grows above ground.

I'm still learning myself, but I believe the top growth more than catches up and surpasses smaller rooted plants in Veg.

Interesting when you start reading different articles about the subject. I always assumed that a very large root mass was directly related to plant vigor/health, now I read that if roots have access to nutrient rich soil they don't expand or increase that much? And @Moe.Red seems to be some truth to that for sure.

They also looked at 65 independent studies across a wide range of species including tomato, corn, pine tree, cactus, wheat, and cotton plants, and found that all species reach larger sizes when grown in a bigger pot. On average, doubling pot size allowed plants to grow 43% larger.

Want bigger plants? Get to the root of the matter

Plant scientists have imaged and analyzed, for the first time, how a potted plant's roots are arranged in the soil as the plant develops. In this study,biologists also found that doubling plant pot size makes plants grow over 40 percent larger.

www.sciencedaily.com

What makes a root grow? You might think that gravity has a major influence because roots always grow downwards. However, roots actually grow to cover more area in the soil and absorb more nutrients. That means that in the microgravity environment of space, the roots would change in size and direction to absorb more nutrients. Roots that have easy access to nutrients don't increase very much in size, and the rest of the plant grows to compensate for the lack of root growth. (Did you notice that when you looked at the roots of your plants in nutrient-rich soil?)

Space gardener: comparing plant root growth

Build mini-asteroids, and see how impact craters are formed on the Earth's surface!

www.asc-csa.gc.ca

 

[Observer]

Interesting when you start reading different articles about the subject. I always assumed that a very large root mass was directly related to plant vigor/health, now I read that if roots have access to nutrient rich soil they don't expand or increase that much? And @Moe.Red seems to be some truth to that for sure.

Scientists

Want bigger plants? Get to the root of the matter

Plant scientists have imaged and analyzed, for the first time, how a potted plant's roots are arranged in the soil as the plant develops. In this study,biologists also found that doubling plant pot size makes plants grow over 40 percent larger.

www.sciencedaily.com

Space gardener: comparing plant root growth

Build mini-asteroids, and see how impact craters are formed on the Earth's surface!

www.asc-csa.gc.ca

Yes

Kinda what I do with my solos, why I can get 5 foot plants in a root ball smaller then your palm.

 

[Aqua Man]

And how i grew my plants in 1 gal pots but had to feed 14x a day to meet their needs

 

[Observer]

And how i grew my plants in 1 gal pots but had to feed 14x a day to meet their needs

Yup

Get the root system going and then can really start pushing em

 

[Observer]

Yes

Kinda what I do with my solos, why I can get 5 foot plants in a root ball smaller then your palm.

And I could get more of that plant too, where it's not just leg

 

[moe.red]

Interesting when you start reading different articles about the subject. I always assumed that a very large root mass was directly related to plant vigor/health, now I read that if roots have access to nutrient rich soil they don't expand or increase that much? And @Moe.Red seems to be some truth to that for sure.

Want bigger plants? Get to the root of the matter

Plant scientists have imaged and analyzed, for the first time, how a potted plant's roots are arranged in the soil as the plant develops. In this study,biologists also found that doubling plant pot size makes plants grow over 40 percent larger.

www.sciencedaily.com

Space gardener: comparing plant root growth

Build mini-asteroids, and see how impact craters are formed on the Earth's surface!

www.asc-csa.gc.ca

So they see the plant does somehow sense the size of the pot, but not sure how.

I'm right there with them. I've seen it happen, but don't know why. I don't even fully understand why the roots are different in soil vs hydro vs fog. The tiny hairs I get in fog make me think the surface area is much higher than other methods.

Lots to learn here.

 

[Rootsruler]

Interesting when you start reading different articles about the subject. I always assumed that a very large root mass was directly related to plant vigor/health, now I read that if roots have access to nutrient rich soil they don't expand or increase that much? And @Moe.Red seems to be some truth to that for sure.

Want bigger plants? Get to the root of the matter

Plant scientists have imaged and analyzed, for the first time, how a potted plant's roots are arranged in the soil as the plant develops. In this study,biologists also found that doubling plant pot size makes plants grow over 40 percent larger.

www.sciencedaily.com

Space gardener: comparing plant root growth

Build mini-asteroids, and see how impact craters are formed on the Earth's surface!

www.asc-csa.gc.ca

Yes

Kinda what I do with my solos, why I can get 5 foot plants in a root ball smaller then your palm.

And how i grew my plants in 1 gal pots but had to feed 14x a day to meet their needs

Yup

Get the root system going and then can really start pushing em

And I could get more of that plant too, where it's not just leg

So would it be sane to say that running an inert medium and feeding available ions to the root system is a better way of increasing your root mass rather than counting on fungal and bacterial breakdown in an already rich soil?

I say this because I've run potting mix that has been reused several times without amending but using salt ferts as the nutrition with no observable defects. Could it be that the unamended soil is acting like an inert medium?

 

[Observer]

So they see the plant does somehow sense the size of the pot, but not sure how.


Lots to learn here.

I'm noticing this as well, does seem to be a valid variable..

Guess, where it's roots reach/hit too hard of a surface and calls it.

And wanted to test this somehow starting in different pot sizes

 

[Aqua Man]

Roots are effected by lots of things. The can sense water, gravity, light gas levels and have evolved to make changes based on whats best for the plant… more exploratory roots etc. they can even exert a shit ton of force at the tips that can break concrete

Its just as complex as above ground

 

[smoke]

I recently did some reading about a possibly related topic: The importance of day/night cycles. Plants, as I recall, do different things during their dark period than they do during the light period. I can't recall all the specifics of what I read, but I did conclude that the dark period is important. In essence, what happens in one part of the cycle complements what happens in the other part of the cycle. A conclusion might be that the plant doesn't do everything at once.

Im curious what your veg light cycle is?

Mine is 16/8

 

[smoke]

So they see the plant does somehow sense the size of the pot, but not sure how.

I'm right there with them. I've seen it happen, but don't know why. I don't even fully understand why the roots are different in soil vs hydro vs fog. The tiny hairs I get in fog make me think the surface area is much higher than other methods.

Lots to learn here.

The fibrous roots is something im missing in my grows imo.

My ag background (corn wheat and beans ) happy roots are hairy roots

 

[Amnesia]

Im curious what your veg light cycle is?

Mine is 16/8

I use 18/6 in veg. Sometimes I wonder if a different light cycle would do just as well. I probably run my lights at lower power than most other folks.

 

[Observer]

I use 18/6 in veg. Sometimes I wonder if a different light cycle would do just as well. I probably run my lights at lower power than most other folks.

Should have about the same result with properly dialed DLI either 16/ 18/

 

[freezeland]

Should have about the same result with properly dialed DLI either 16/ 18/

I have had success vegging indoors at 14.5hrs of light. I wouldn’t recommend anything less then 15 though.

 

[Observer]

I have had success vegging indoors at 14.5hrs of light. I wouldn’t recommend anything less then 15 though.

Indeed

You'll get slower growth or flowers lol

 

[freezeland]

Indeed

You'll get slower growth or flowers lol

I think I might disagree

 

[Aqua Man]

Its all DLI hours mean nothing without accounting for intensity

 

[freezeland]

Its all DLI hours mean nothing without accounting for intensity

Exactly

 

[ninjadip]

Theoretically speaking, I think there's reason to believe reduced moisture could lead to increased root growth (in some situations, of course). Seeking water is what roots do. I'm thinking this is possible because I noticed recently that a clone grew more roots when I decreased its water. I used a different method, but what's in common is less water.

I think this is the reason the roots are blowing up now, after a few days with the water decrease.

I would imagine that with aeroponics, and maybe hydroponics, root trimming would be possible. Has anyone explored that?

YES! I just started, and I like the results! Right now i'm just kinda trimming any long ones that get away about once a day on these new clones. but of course it's hard to tell if this is helping or not.

Before cut:


Right After to show how much i'm cutting: