Reservoir Agitation

[Rootsruler]

So I've been doing some research to upgrade the next grow and I've come to the part where I need to agitate the feed reservoir I have but I'd like to try and get as much bang for my buck on this. I could use a small pond pump to agitate the reservoir and keep the solution mixed and not settling to the bottom but I'd also like to try and introduce more oxygen into the water if I can at the same time.

From reading what Aquaman and others have recommended anything that breaks water surface tension works well. I'm debating on whether I go with an aquarium powerhead mounted at surface level to get more water interacting with air or I could do the same with a pond pump and fountain attachment and also get some added O2. I was thinking of going with the traditional air stone and pump but I'll be using my air stone and pump on another experiment.

Opinions?

 

[Aqua Man]

So I've been doing some research to upgrade the next grow and I've come to the part where I need to agitate the feed reservoir I have but I'd like to try and get as much bang for my buck on this. I could use a small pond pump to agitate the reservoir and keep the solution mixed and not settling to the bottom but I'd also like to try and introduce more oxygen into the water if I can at the same time.

From reading what Aquaman and others have recommended anything that breaks water surface tension works well. I'm debating on whether I go with an aquarium powerhead mounted at surface level to get more water interacting with air or I could do the same with a pond pump and fountain attachment and also get some added O2. I was thinking of going with the traditional air stone and pump but I'll be using my air stone and pump on another experiment.

Opinions?

Imo keep pumps over 10w out of the system…. Too much heat added. Id say a cheap aquarium pump and an airstone…. Easy peazy.

That way you can keep a lid on it and prevent evaporation.

If you go with a mixing pump you need a way to change the air or leave the lid off. If its sealed with no air exchange that can lead to depletion of o2

 

[Aqua Man]

Should also state it is unlikely if you have airstones in the sites and probably won’t see any impact to o2 but to maximize your gas exchange it would be good practice.

But if using an airstone in the res that will provide mixing and aeration.

I have used a small 5 watt mixing pump without issue but and submerged pump will add some heat dependent on the wattage and efficiency how much

 

[Rootsruler]

Should also state it is unlikely if you have airstones in the sites and probably won’t see any impact to o2 but to maximize your gas exchange it would be good practice.

But if using an airstone in the res that will provide mixing and aeration.

I have used a small 5 watt mixing pump without issue but and submerged pump will add some heat dependent on the wattage and efficiency how much

My main goal is keeping the solution mixed consistently so whatever pump or powerhead it's going to be higher powered so that whatever organics that are in the solution stay suspended. Was hoping I could utilize some of that power to up the DS in the water a little more. I'll look for a small aquarium pump and stone. Smaller the bubble the better right?

 

[Bandit420]

Air lift AKA pulser pump. Same thing that's used to plumb up a GH Waterfarm system. Adds air and keeps the tank mixed well and agitated.

 

[Pipecarver]

So I've been doing some research to upgrade the next grow and I've come to the part where I need to agitate the feed reservoir I have but I'd like to try and get as much bang for my buck on this. I could use a small pond pump to agitate the reservoir and keep the solution mixed and not settling to the bottom but I'd also like to try and introduce more oxygen into the water if I can at the same time.

From reading what Aquaman and others have recommended anything that breaks water surface tension works well. I'm debating on whether I go with an aquarium powerhead mounted at surface level to get more water interacting with air or I could do the same with a pond pump and fountain attachment and also get some added O2. I was thinking of going with the traditional air stone and pump but I'll be using my air stone and pump on another experiment.

Opinions?

With my Auto Pots they recommended an air stone just to break the water surface tension & an agitating pump running for 10 min every 2 hours. I had a small air stone running 24/7 a 5w pump and a small 5w wave maker I ran together to keep my res mixed. Now with a recirculating pump and chiller I don't need them any longer.

 

[Aqua Man]

Air lift AKA pulser pump. Same thing that's used to plumb up a GH Waterfarm system. Adds air and keeps the tank mixed well and agitated.

I build an underwater sandfall using that principle years ago out of pvc pipe, styrofoam, cement, pain, sealer and of course sand. It makes the appearance of a waterfall under the water. The bubbles pull water along with them and in turn sand along with the water. Imo its more hassle than its worth efficiency wise. A plain airstone should be plenty

Only this guy is kinking the airline by putting it in the bottom of the tube. He should be running down the tube.

Here is that sandfall that shows how the principal works.

 

[Bandit420]

I build an underwater sandfall using that principle years ago out of pvc pipe, styrofoam, cement, pain, sealer and of course sand. It makes the appearance of a waterfall under the water. The bubbles pull water along with them and in turn sand along with the water. Imo its more hassle than its worth efficiency wise. A plain airstone should be plenty

Only this guy is kinking the airline by putting it in the bottom of the tube. He should be running down the tube.

Here is that sandfall that shows how the principal works.

Yeah he just shows how it works along with crude builds but it was the first video up so I chose it.
They work way better when a 45 degree downward hole is drilled about an inch up from the bottom and the air tube being cut at 45 degrees then slid in the hole and sealed. If a good match of air power, water height, and tube diameter is made it can move up to 10gph on just a handful of watts. Plus it flumes the water and pulls from the bottom where things try to settle.
The details are definitely in how it's built.
GH has a kit but the old version is better IMO. I have several waterfarm and megafarm kits that maybe one day will be an aquaponics garden. Plan is to be off grid and use solar air power to power up the air lifts.

https://www.amazon.com/General-Hydroponics-706335-Farm-Brown/dp/B0002JAY6E/ref=asc_df_B0002JAY6E/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=198106292047&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=7111296352422061154&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9028279&hvtargid=pla-350570733796&th=1

 

[Rootsruler]

Thanks for everyones input. I think what I'm going to do is run a couple of powerheads. One mounted at water level to churn up the surface and, hopefully, be able to boost the dissolved oxygen in the water and another mounted close to the bottom to keep any sediment from settling on the bottom and keep it suspended in the feed solution.

I have an 8" air stone disc and 8L air pump I could use for the reservoir but I wanted to use them for an experiment I wanted to try. I'll go with the powerheads for now and once I'm done with my experiment I'll put it in the reservoir in addition to the powerheads.

@Aqua Man - One of the things I've taken away from your postings is on the equilibrium of ambient O2 levels vs DO in the water. My reservoir is not sealed so any elevation in DO in the water is going to equalize with whatever the O2 level is in the atmosphere. It seems somewhat self defeating to try and elevate DO in feed water unless you're able to retain high levels of O2 in the ambient air within the reservoir chamber or is the temporary amount of elevated DO in water through an airstone able to stay in the water long enough at a level that is beneficial to the plant?

I'm really interested and agree with a lot of the O2 at rhizosphere comments you've made in regards to improving yields especially in soil. One of the reasons I want to try out my experiment with airstone at the bottom of the pot.

Would high wind speed hitting cloth pots be more beneficial in introducing O2 to the rhizosphere than trying to oxygenate the water? In other words would setting a fan at it's highest speed circulating around the cloth pots under canopy be better at introducing O2 to the rhizosphere than trying to introduce it through DO in the water? I realize the answer could be a combination of both but if I had to choose one which would be most beneficial?

 

[Aqua Man]

Thanks for everyones input. I think what I'm going to do is run a couple of powerheads. One mounted at water level to churn up the surface and, hopefully, be able to boost the dissolved oxygen in the water and another mounted close to the bottom to keep any sediment from settling on the bottom and keep it suspended in the feed solution.

I have an 8" air stone disc and 8L air pump I could use for the reservoir but I wanted to use them for an experiment I wanted to try. I'll go with the powerheads for now and once I'm done with my experiment I'll put it in the reservoir in addition to the powerheads.

@Aqua Man - One of the things I've taken away from your postings is on the equilibrium of ambient O2 levels vs DO in the water. My reservoir is not sealed so any elevation in DO in the water is going to equalize with whatever the O2 level is in the atmosphere. It seems somewhat self defeating to try and elevate DO in feed water unless you're able to retain high levels of O2 in the ambient air within the reservoir chamber or is the temporary amount of elevated DO in water through an airstone able to stay in the water long enough at a level that is beneficial to the plant?

I'm really interested and agree with a lot of the O2 at rhizosphere comments you've made in regards to improving yields especially in soil. One of the reasons I want to try out my experiment with airstone at the bottom of the pot.

Would high wind speed hitting cloth pots be more beneficial in introducing O2 to the rhizosphere than trying to oxygenate the water? In other words would setting a fan at it's highest speed circulating around the cloth pots under canopy be better at introducing O2 to the rhizosphere than trying to introduce it through DO in the water? I realize the answer could be a combination of both but if I had to choose one which would be most beneficial?

It may cause a lot of evaporation from the pots… it takes a special kind of setup to increase o2 above atmospheric so imo the easiest way to increase gas exchange is to change the media…. The more pores the better. That why i like coco so much…. Great gas exchange and air holding capacity

 

[Rootsruler]

It may cause a lot of evaporation from the pots… it takes a special kind of setup to increase o2 above atmospheric so imo the easiest way to increase gas exchange is to change the media…. The more pores the better. That why i like coco so much…. Great gas exchange and air holding capacity

Evaporation aside would the higher wind speeds under canopy pointed at the cloth pots increase O2 levels at a beneficial level in the rhizosphere? I can increase feed periods and decrease PPM in the solution to deal with the faster dryback but if I can appreciably increase O2 in the rhizosphere by increased wind speed under canopy I think that would help in increasing yields.

As you said, it's hard to hold DO in water when ambient O2 is not in balance with it so it would seem that introducing more O2 into the rhizosphere via through the cloth pots would be a more viable option?

 

[Aqua Man]

Evaporation aside would the higher wind speeds under canopy pointed at the cloth pots increase O2 levels at a beneficial level in the rhizosphere? I can increase feed periods and decrease PPM in the solution to deal with the faster dryback but if I can appreciably increase O2 in the rhizosphere by increased wind speed under canopy I think that would help in increasing yields.

As you said, it's hard to hold DO in water when ambient O2 is not in balance with it so it would seem that introducing more O2 into the rhizosphere via through the cloth pots would be a more viable option?

Yea ut you can also cause uneven drying through forced evaporation from the wind. So yes you want good airflow but bot excessive to cause that. As i said the best gas exchange will happen from medias with a higher ability to exchange gasses

 

[Pipecarver]

Evaporation aside would the higher wind speeds under canopy pointed at the cloth pots increase O2 levels at a beneficial level in the rhizosphere? I can increase feed periods and decrease PPM in the solution to deal with the faster dryback but if I can appreciably increase O2 in the rhizosphere by increased wind speed under canopy I think that would help in increasing yields.

As you said, it's hard to hold DO in water when ambient O2 is not in balance with it so it would seem that introducing more O2 into the rhizosphere via through the cloth pots would be a more viable option?

Have you looked at air domes & air stones? I'm using them in auto pots but they might also work if you use clay balls in the base to cover the dome then soil/coco/perlite in a fabric or plastic pots

 

[Rootsruler]

Yea ut you can also cause uneven drying through forced evaporation from the wind. So yes you want good airflow but bot excessive to cause that. As i said the best gas exchange will happen from medias with a higher ability to exchange gasses

As in most things, moderation almost always wins out.

OK...so media as the basis for improved O2 in the rhizosphere when it comes to soil based media. Would a higher percentage of perlite begin to approximate the gas exchange we see in coco?

 

[Rootsruler]

Have you looked at air domes & air stones? I'm using them in auto pots but they might also work if you use clay balls in the base to cover the dome then soil/coco/perlite in a fabric or plastic pots

I've talked about trying an experiment where I use a plastic nursery pot and lay the 8" disc air stone I have on the bottom and put a cloth pot on top to keep it from clogging up. I want to see if injecting O2 into the soil has any marked and/or measurable effects on plant growth. I've read about some doing the same thing by planting air stones in the soil around the root zone to oxygenate the area with mixed results. I'm wondering if, as was mentioned prior by @Aqua Man, it was too much of a good thing and threw the plant out of balance. I guess I'll find out once I try it.

 

[Aqua Man]

As in most things, moderation almost always wins out.

OK...so media as the basis for improved O2 in the rhizosphere when it comes to soil based media. Would a higher percentage of perlite begin to approximate the gas exchange we see in coco?

Absolutely a 50/50 soil perlite would probably be very similar to coco and maybe even a bit better

 

[Observer]

As in most things, moderation almost always wins out.

OK...so media as the basis for improved O2 in the rhizosphere when it comes to soil based media. Would a higher percentage of perlite begin to approximate the gas exchange we see in coco?

Yes

But if your going for speed, using organics/soil is still going to hold you back, even with the excess oxygen - good for plant health though ofc.

I mean in theory, as the organics need to become bio-available.

 

[Observer]

But now I'm seeing, there seems to not be much point to using perlite IF you WATER CORRECTLY and have environment controlled consistent and stable.

I mean adding perlite isn't going to increase the oxygen that's in the air, just keeps the pot from being flooded with water AS it has good porous capacity for air/movement.

You are still going to have the same oxygen concentration up above in atmo.

I think the roots are healthier and can grow better in coco than perlite, too.
And once that medium is enveloped completely by roots, your gas exchange with the coco is already about as best as it gets

 

[Aqua Man]

Yes

But if your going for speed, using organics/soil is still going to hold you back, even with the excess oxygen - good for plant health though ofc.

I mean in theory, as the organics need to become bio-available.

As ling as the nutrients keep up it wont make a difference on the nutrient front. You just need to compensate by top dressing more often

 

[Aqua Man]

But now I'm seeing, there seems to not be much point to using perlite IF you WATER CORRECTLY and have environment controlled consistent and stable.

I mean adding perlite isn't going to increase the oxygen that's in the air, just keeps the pot from being flooded with water AS it has good porous capacity for air/movement.

You are still going to have the same oxygen concentration up above in atmo.

I think the roots are healthier and can grow better in coco than perlite, too.
And once that medium is enveloped completely by roots, your gas exchange with the coco is already about as best as it gets

Add perlite reduces the water table and water holding capacity. This means a higher aor holding capacity and the larger particle size means better gas exchange. It will absolutely make a difference but also change the watering needs.

The issue with soil is it so dense the gas exchange is lower… but that also means a larger water holding capacity. This is important outdoors. If our gardens were made from coco/perlite we would have to water them many times a day… but growth would be faster because of the air holding capacity and gas exchange

In soil o2 in the air isn’t the problem its getting o2 to replenish in the soil… perlite aerates soil and therefore makes it easier for the atmospheric o2 to replenish the soil

 

[Aqua Man]

If doing high perlite to soil ratio for improved growth you also want to keep the container size down as this plays a role also. Now with more of the media being perlite and not contributing to the organic supply of nutrients it can be of concern that you will experience deficiencies. To combat this and get the best of both you should be feeding teas. This is where the organic nutrients are converted to available nutrients prior to application to the soil so they are immediately available. Much like synthetic… infact almost the same. Other than a couple small differences the only major difference is how the nutrients were processed into ionic form as both synthetic and organically derived nutrients are in ionic form… the difference is the process to get then there. Organically derived uses microbes to break them down in ionic forms… synthetic uses chemical, heat and other processes to break them down into ionic form.

So teas are best if you want to do a small container high gas exchange grow

 

[Observer]

Add perlite reduces the water table and water holding capacity. This means a higher aor holding capacity and the larger particle size means better gas exchange. It will absolutely make a difference but also change the watering needs.

The issue with soil is it so dense the gas exchange is lower… but that also means a larger water holding capacity. This is important outdoors. If our gardens were made from coco/perlite we would have to water them many times a day… but growth would be faster because of the air holding capacity and gas exchange

Ok thanks

My mistake, I did not consider those variables.

Thanks for clarifying

 

[Observer]

I think the roots are healthier and can grow better in coco than perlite, too.
And once that medium is enveloped completely by roots, your gas exchange with the coco is already about as best as it gets

not intending to make factual statements just possible anecdotes and observations.

conversation and information.

**

 

[Rootsruler]

I know this is subjective but in my situation I'll be feeding synthetic nutrients. Is there a ratio of perlite to soil that can take advantage of improving gas exchange from a regular cannabis potting mix? I use Roots Organic Original and it has a decent amount of perlite in it. I'm wondering how much more I can put into to take advantage of gas exchange improvements but still have the organics of soil to ion breakdown happening even though I'm feeding synthetics.

We could break it down into cups of perlite per gallon of soil mix.

 

[Aqua Man]

I know this is subjective but in my situation I'll be feeding synthetic nutrients. Is there a ratio of perlite to soil that can take advantage of improving gas exchange from a regular cannabis potting mix? I use Roots Organic Original and it has a decent amount of perlite in it. I'm wondering how much more I can put into to take advantage of gas exchange improvements but still have the organics of soil to ion breakdown happening even though I'm feeding synthetics.

We could break it down into cups of perlite per gallon of soil mix.

What size pot? I suggest 2-3gal with between 70/30 to 50/50 ratio to see a significant difference

 

[Pipecarver]

I've gone to close to 50/50 Promix /perlite mix for a different reason, compacting of the soil. I've gone with straight promix/ 30% - 40% & now 50%....Promix hardens after a steady cycle of wet /dry and without more perlite I kept squeezing my roots and giving me leaf issues I thought may be related. Although trying to transplant a 50/50 mix is awkward with the soil mass being too lose I'm not getting the compacting of the soil and my plants seem healthier because of it.

 

[steamroller]

DC pumps should be a game changer for adding temp to res.
They have the power switcher/ transformer mounted separate from pump so not in water.
They are also digitally controlled so you can dial in flow perfect.
I always oversize since they can be turned down.

https://www.amazon.com/Jebao-Sine-Water-Return-DCP-5000/dp/B078WHWG2Y?th=1

For reference the 15000 pushes water up a 1 1/2 inch PVC pipe from my basement to my 180g aquarium aprox. 10 feet above in the living room.
The wave makers are insane.

Here is one in a 120g tank. 4x2x2

 

[Rootsruler]

What size pot? I suggest 2-3gal with between 70/30 to 50/50 ratio to see a significant difference

What does a smaller pot size do to help? Wouldn't that increase dryback time especially if I'm pulling a lot of water through the vascular system through high PPFD?

70 potting mix/30 perlite?

 

[Aqua Man]

What does a smaller pot size do to help? Wouldn't that increase dryback time especially if I'm pulling a lot of water through the vascular system through high PPFD?

70 potting mix/30 perlite?

Speed up dry backs, a higher ratio of media exposed to the atmosphere and less distance the gases have to travel.