Cannabis and o2 in the rootzone

[Max]

interested in what you come up with dad..

 

[Aqua Man]

My concept is very simple. A small 3 gal bucket and a grow bag. I wont go into the details to much unless someone has an o2 concentrator and wants to try it but its way simpler than try to do hydro or fog.

Basically the grow bag fits over the rim of the bucket and you pump in elevated o2 levels into the air pocket below the grow bag forcing high levels of o2 up through the media. I can go into a lot more detail if anyone is willing to try it

 

[moe.red]

My concept is very simple. A small 3 gal bucket and a grow bag. I wont go into the details to much unless someone has an o2 concentrator and wants to try it but its way simpler than try to do hydro or fog.

Basically the grow bag fits over the rim of the bucket and you pump in elevated o2 levels into the air pocket below the grow bag forcing high levels of o2 up through the media. I can go into a lot more detail if anyone is willing to try it

I think this would work well. Count me out I'm a water guy balls to bones.

 

[Max]

I was Just thinking maybe too much would dry the media out but if your fertigating regularly there wouldn’t b any chance of that happening.

 

[moe.red]

I was Just thinking maybe too much would dry the media out but if your fertigating regularly there wouldn’t b any chance of that happening.

Something like that always comes up and bites you in the ass. When you add O2, the formula changes and you will find a new bottleneck somewhere. At least I did. No doubt whoever does this first will need to think on their feet and find a way to humidify the incoming air (It's dry as a bone out of the concentrator) or add more waterings. Might be other things to address too. Nutes usage goes up for me for example.

 

[Aqua Man]

I was Just thinking maybe too much would dry the media out but if your fertigating regularly there wouldn’t b any chance of that happening.

And most concentrator have a the ability to humidify the air to about 60% trust me it doesn’t take much to really raise the levels so its not as much of an issue as you may think

 

[moe.red]

And most concentrator have a the ability to humidify the air to about 60% trust me it doesn’t take much to really raise the levels so its not as much of an issue as you may think

My O2 concentrator has a tank the size of a pack of cigarettes. It's pretty useless. They are not meant for 24x7 use.

 

[Max]

Will this dilute the oxygen concentration with a higher humidity .spose the temperature plays a part in this aswell..

 

[Aqua Man]

My O2 concentrator has a tank the size of a pack of cigarettes. It's pretty useless. They are not meant for 24x7 use.

Yeah would need to modify that but imo I don’t feel it would be needed anyway. Easy mod would be to have the line in going from top down into a water container in the bottom of the pail. As it bubbles the air will pick up humidity

 

[Aqua Man]

Will this dilute the oxygen concentration with a higher humidity

Nope

 

[Aqua Man]

I have put a lot of time into thinking of all the variables but unfortunately don’t have the time of money at this point to chase it down and make it work. So just figured I’d throw it out there to everyone since someone would figure this shit out sooner or later. Ill see where im at next spring and may do a coco grow showing how i envision the system working with a media based grow… e.g coco, soil, RW

 

[Max]

what kind of increase in yield you reckon you would get..I know how big your 3 plants got in your room lol.if you try this Aqua your gonna need a bigger 🛥

 

[Aqua Man]

what kind of increase in yield you reckon you would get..I know how big your 3 plants got in your room lol.if you try this Aqua your gonna need a bigger 🛥

Increases are % based exactly like co2 so you will see more in term of yield per year then as per grow in a sense. Its speeds up growth rates and efficiency of the plants abilities to make and use energy. Which cuts down on the time needed for a grow to achieve the same or higher yield per grow.

So yes you will see an increase in yield provided you complete a healthy grow. But you will also see a dramatic reduction in the veg time needed to raise the same size plants.

Exact numbers i cant give. But co2 can increase growth rates on average of about 20%. I surmise o2 will be able to achieve roughly the same. But remember these 2 both increase rates on a % value so when combined they are exponential so while you may get rate of 10-20% each but when combined i think your more likely to see an increase of growth rates that could be as high as 50%+ depending on the base growth rates

 

[moe.red]

Increases are % based exactly like co2 so you will see more in term of yield per year then as per grow in a sense. Its speeds up growth rates and efficiency of the plants abilities to make and use energy. Which cuts down on the time needed for a grow to achieve the same or higher yield per grow.

So yes you will see an increase in yield provided you complete a healthy grow. But you will also see a dramatic reduction in the veg time needed to raise the same size plants.

Exact numbers i cant give. But co2 can increase growth rates on average of about 20%. I surmise o2 will be able to achieve roughly the same. But remember these 2 both increase rates on a % value so when combined they are exponential so while you may get rate of 10-20% each but when combined i think your more likely to see an increase of growth rates that could be as high as 50%+ depending on the base growth rates

From your lips to gods ears

 

[Rootsruler]

So the issue of O2 delivery doesn't seem to be the main issue. It's as easy as pumping O2 into the soil with an oxygen concentrator. The issue is how you keep it there in sufficient levels for it to be worth the time and effort.

How hard would it be to develop a way to seal the rhizosphere much like a CO2 room that is sealed to contain the gas for long enough for the plants to be able to use? Sealed rooms aren't completely air tight and the rhizoseal doesn't have to be either. A sealed pot with no drainage holes and only a hole on top for the main branch to grow through with a flexible rubber skirt around it to allow for main branch girth? With no drain holes I would imagine you would need to employ some sort of irrigation practice like fertigation to be able to precisely feed the rhizosphere without runoff. Basically, a mini sealed room for your rhizosphere.

 

[Aqua Man]

So the issue of O2 delivery doesn't seem to be the main issue. It's as easy as pumping O2 into the soil with an oxygen concentrator. The issue is how you keep it there in sufficient levels for it to be worth the time and effort.

How hard would it be to develop a way to seal the rhizosphere much like a CO2 room that is sealed to contain the gas for long enough for the plants to be able to use? Sealed rooms aren't completely air tight and the rhizoseal doesn't have to be either. A sealed pot with no drainage holes and only a hole on top for the main branch to grow through with a flexible rubber skirt around it to allow for main branch girth? With no drain holes I would imagine you would need to employ some sort of irrigation practice like fertigation to be able to precisely feed the rhizosphere without runoff. Basically, a mini sealed room for your rhizosphere.

Imo that wont work… your likely to end up with crown rot. You can’t really effectively seal around the plant’s stem in a media based grow.

You don’t need to seal it completely…. You need to achieve a steady flow of higher concentration o2 into the rootzone imo. Basically you want to control the gas makeup of the media and it does not need to be completely sealed to do so…. Nor should it be or you won’t be able to purge the co2 produced from respiration…. So you need a way to control the flow through the media not stop it

 

[steamroller]

Auto pots come to mind as possibly easy way to introduce the concentrated O2? Just have a port under every pot in the water?
Or that other system with the upside down dome under the medium.

How many LPH are we talking about per pot?
Would you run the concentrator 24/7 or find a proper schedule like CO2?

 

[Aqua Man]

Auto pots come to mind as possibly easy way to introduce the concentrated O2? Just have a port under every pot in the water?
Or that other system with the upside down dome under the medium.

How many LPH are we talking about per pot?
Would you run the concentrator 24/7 or find a proper schedule like CO2?

Cant answer the exact needs yet. Testing needs to be done on that but i can say it will be very low. I know my 7L is more than enough for 4 sites and i would hazard a guess around 12-16 sites fairly easily in the method I described above.

As for the time it would be 24hrs a day ideally because unlike photosynthesis respiration happens 24hrs a day

 

[Rootsruler]

Imo that wont work… your likely to end up with crown rot. You can’t really effectively seal around the plant’s stem in a media based grow.

You don’t need to seal it completely…. You need to achieve a steady flow of higher concentration o2 into the rootzone imo. Basically you want to control the gas makeup of the media and it does not need to be completely sealed to do so…. Nor should it be or you won’t be able to purge the co2 produced from respiration…. So you need a way to control the flow through the media not stop it

After posting the crown rot came to mind.

Ok.....what would be a good formula to calculate the O2 needs? I'm guessing pot size will determine amount of O2?

 

[Aqua Man]

After posting the crown rot came to mind.

Ok.....what would be a good formula to calculate the O2 needs? I'm guessing pot size will determine amount of O2?

You cant until you determine the uptake by the plants which varies on many factors but especially the size of the plant. Its kinda like trying to determine co2 needs without a co2 controller.

The benefit of the o2 concentrator is it can constantly and safely provide o2 so the rest doesnt matter. The only 100% reliable way is the same as co2…. a controller.

But since we can provide it nonstop without running out and safely someone like @Moe.Red can look at this and establish a baseline that can then be used to see how much they consume at peak consumption and then that will give a pretty solid idea of needs and how many litres per min are required for X amounts of grow sites

 

[Rootsruler]

Do you think running pure O2 in a tent or room like that could present a problem if it builds up in the room?

 

[Aqua Man]

Do you think running pure O2 in a tent or room like that could present a problem if it builds up in the room?

Your dam right its a problem. Not only is o2 explosive above 24% in the atmosphere it also inhibits co2 uptake. This is why you need to separate the rhizosphere and the atmosphere.

But with an o2 concentrator you are not adding o2 to a room… you are separating gasses and delivering them where it’s beneficial. Once it escapes the media it mixes back into the air so there is no risk of explosion or negative effects to the plants because it doesn’t build up it just ends up back where it came

THIS IS WHY YOU CANNOT AND I CANNOT STRESS THIS ENOUGH… Use bottled o2 for this application. The risks are just not worth it.

Now there are ways around this and a few more things to consider which do allow allow you to use bottled o2 but im not giving that information out because of the risks if someone doesn’t fully understand or decides to just take a risk

 

[Rootsruler]

Your dam right its a problem. Not only is o2 explosive above 24% in the atmosphere it also inhibits co2 uptake. This is why you need to separate the rhizosphere and the atmosphere.

But with an o2 concentrator you are not adding o2 to a room… you are separating gasses and delivering them where it’s beneficial. Once it escapes the media it mixes back into the air so there is no risk of explosion or negative effects to the plants because it doesn’t build up it just ends up back where it came

THIS IS WHY YOU CANNOT AND I CANNOT STRESS THIS ENOUGH… Use bottled o2 for this application. The risks are just not worth it.

Now there are ways around this and a few more things to consider which do allow allow you to use bottled o2 but im not giving that information out because of the risks if someone doesn’t fully understand or decides to just take a risk

OK...so what I'm understanding is that the O2 generator would be placed within the room or tent regenerating O2 from said room or tent so no additional O2 molecules are added other than what comes in as make up air in its normal atmospheric ratio of O2 and N?

I've visited Hospice Care facilities so I've seen the O2 generators they use and they are big and loud. IIRC, they also put out heat in their operation. Would the individual portable generators suffice for the amount of oxygen needed? They aren't as loud and don't seem to make the heat the big boys do. I realize it depends on plant count and all but just trying to get a general idea.

 

[Aqua Man]

OK...so what I'm understanding is that the O2 generator would be placed within the room or tent regenerating O2 from said room or tent so no additional O2 molecules are added other than what comes in as make up air in its normal atmospheric ratio of O2 and N?

I've visited Hospice Care facilities so I've seen the O2 generators they use and they are big and loud. IIRC, they also put out heat in their operation. Would the individual portable generators suffice for the amount of oxygen needed? They aren't as loud and don't seem to make the heat the big boys do. I realize it depends on plant count and all but just trying to get a general idea.

Yea but imo they wont last all that long. I have also spent a lot of time on how to reduce the cost and engineer them to more suit our needs. Data from @Moe.Red will greatly help us to understand the requirements for this.

They do produce a ton of heat and do not do well in humid areas. There are ways around those factors also. Thats why im saying if anyone wants to actually do this i can help them 1 on 1. Its a very simple concept with some very simple solutions and i have considered all of this.

Hopefully one day @Moe.Red and myself will have a newly engineered version that removes a lot of the costs and works plug and play for growers. Right now im almost useless to him and he is doing all of the lifting on this

 

[Rootsruler]

Yea but imo they wont last all that long. I have also spent a lot of time on how to reduce the cost and engineer them to more suit our needs. Data from @Moe.Red will greatly help us to understand the requirements for this.

They do produce a ton of heat and do not do well in humid areas. There are ways around those factors also. Thats why im saying if anyone wants to actually do this i can help them 1 on 1. Its a very simple concept with some very simple solutions and i have considered all of this.

Hopefully one day @Moe.Red and myself will have a newly engineered version that removes a lot of the costs and works plug and play for growers. Right now im almost useless to him and he is doing all of the lifting on this

Thanks for your input!! I'm going to think about this more and if I have any more questions I'll message you or Moe.