Cannabis high fertigation coco by Aqua Man

[ZombieRider]

So in my crazy scientist lab I am performing a host of experiments with buffering PH in hydro. Getting some help from Aqua and Franksta on that, and I am still in it. One of the biggest problems I have is things like buffering - it's not one thing. There is GH - general hardness, KH - (which most people consider the actual buffer you are looking for - this comes from the aquarium trade where people use kalkwasser and such to put calcium hardness in the water) but PH buffering is not just those 2 things.

The other things that cause buffering are not something I can measure

So I'm working on putting together a "best practices" sorta document to lead folks thru the recipe for how to best prep and maintain your res. The above info is part of that of course.

When I get this nailed down to a point where I can internalize it and easily explain it to a layman, that will become the sticky. Right now, I'm still in college on PH balance 102.

If you want to dig in with me, I would start your journey over at the science in hydroponics website and strap in, it gets deep pretty quick. Which is why this all needs to be simplified down to a best practices document. New growers, follow this advice to start, and as you get thru several grows it will start to sink in why you are doing this.

If you want the cliff notes version right now, it is to start the res with the potassium silicate and phosphoric acid I mentioned above. And tag me in if you have questions on your grow diary.

So you would you use Silica in drain to waste with synthetics? Silica does raise my PH, but if I were to let it sit for a day before mixing nutes would this cause it not to rise in PH as much? Would be nice to use Silica in my grows but since it fks with my ph so much I dont.

 

[Moe.Red]

So you would you use Silica in drain to waste with synthetics? Silica does raise my PH, but if I were to let it sit for a day before mixing nutes would this cause it not to rise in PH as much? Would be nice to use Silica in my grows but since it fks with my ph so much I dont.

Yes, silica benefits plants regardless of grow style, but needs to be tapered off into flower.

You would need to pre-mix the silica product and adjust PH before adding to do it during the grow.

 

[smoke]

So in my crazy scientist lab I am performing a host of experiments with buffering PH in hydro. Getting some help from Aqua and Franksta on that, and I am still in it. One of the biggest problems I have is things like buffering - it's not one thing. There is GH - general hardness, KH - (which most people consider the actual buffer you are looking for - this comes from the aquarium trade where people use kalkwasser and such to put calcium hardness in the water) but PH buffering is not just those 2 things.

The other things that cause buffering are not something I can measure

So I'm working on putting together a "best practices" sorta document to lead folks thru the recipe for how to best prep and maintain your res. The above info is part of that of course.

When I get this nailed down to a point where I can internalize it and easily explain it to a layman, that will become the sticky. Right now, I'm still in college on PH balance 102.

If you want to dig in with me, I would start your journey over at the science in hydroponics website and strap in, it gets deep pretty quick. Which is why this all needs to be simplified down to a best practices document. New growers, follow this advice to start, and as you get thru several grows it will start to sink in why you are doing this.

If you want the cliff notes version right now, it is to start the res with the potassium silicate and phosphoric acid I mentioned above. And tag me in if you have questions on your grow diary.

Hard for me to comment because I do it all wrong but you are talking "best practices " which i agree with.

Is buffering necessary? Im not so sure because I've done it both ways.

 

[Moe.Red]

Hard for me to comment because I do it all wrong but you are talking "best practices " which i agree with.

Is buffering necessary? Im not so sure because I've done it both ways.

Buffering in hydro is like using mushroom compost or worm castings in soil. Just makes the grow easier and more forgiving. At least that is my takeaway

 

[Rootsruler]

I understand the implications buffering has in converting PS to MSA in hydro but how would that translate in a soil medium? Should we prepare our solutions in the same way hydro solutions are prepared to facilitate the PS to MSA conversion prior to application? Because soil has its own buffers can we rely on them to complete the conversion albeit slower than pre-preparing a converted solution?

I've been using ProTekt, mixing nutrient solution in no particular order but have decided to try out Armor SI as its made by GH so I'm thinking there may be some benefit in terms of compatibility in reaction.

Also, I'm pulling water from the res I use to collect condensate. Since I use it exclusively to water plants could I add Armor SI into the entire res so that it does the conversion and all I need to do is add in my base and amendments having pre prepared solution or will the conversion degrade over time? I have a powerhead constantly mixing the water mostly to raise DO levels but the mixing action could also facilitate PS to MSA conversion.

 

[Rootsruler]

Yes, silica benefits plants regardless of grow style, but needs to be tapered off into flower.

You would need to pre-mix the silica product and adjust PH before adding to do it during the grow.

The few solutions I've mixed with Armor SI isn't showing me the same rise in pH after I've mixed in all my other amendments. FloraNova will drop pH so I'm assuming the base is buffering the pH rise? If so do I need to wait for PS to MSA conversion or does the base buffer do that? How long does the conversion take?

 

[Observer]

I think I'm answering the right question, but there may be a few ? here...

When starting a new res / grow using hydro, if you first add Potassium Silicate to the res
if you let that sit / stir for a day, then come back and add PH Down (phosphoric acid) and the 2 battle it out, setting up a PH buffer of sorts and the

end result of the chemical reaction is monosilicic acid in plant ready form (plus some PH buffering)

This is what I don't understand

 

[Moe.Red]

I understand the implications buffering has in converting PS to MSA in hydro but how would that translate in a soil medium? Should we prepare our solutions in the same way hydro solutions are prepared to facilitate the PS to MSA conversion prior to application? Because soil has its own buffers can we rely on them to complete the conversion albeit slower than pre-preparing a converted solution?

I've been using ProTekt, mixing nutrient solution in no particular order but have decided to try out Armor SI as its made by GH so I'm thinking there may be some benefit in terms of compatibility in reaction.

Also, I'm pulling water from the res I use to collect condensate. Since I use it exclusively to water plants could I add Armor SI into the entire res so that it does the conversion and all I need to do is add in my base and amendments having pre prepared solution or will the conversion degrade over time? I have a powerhead constantly mixing the water mostly to raise DO levels but the mixing action could also facilitate PS to MSA conversion.

I have to plead lack of experience here. I'm still figuring things out on hydro.

Soil is clearly different because of CEC. But they still use PS in massive amounts on farms. Agsil 16 was an agricultural product at first. What I cannot say with confidence is how the chemistry works in soil.

 

[Moe.Red]

The few solutions I've mixed with Armor SI isn't showing me the same rise in pH after I've mixed in all my other amendments. FloraNova will drop pH so I'm assuming the base is buffering the pH rise? If so do I need to wait for PS to MSA conversion or does the base buffer do that? How long does the conversion take?

I just looked at the Armor SI label (I don;t use it) and it cautions against the strong PH shift, so

Maybe its a dosage issue for you, or something you already have in there is buffering. If you put it in last after your other amendments, I would see how that is the case.

 

[Moe.Red]

This is what I don't understand

Can you be more specific?

 

[Observer]

Can you be more specific?

My mistake.

Potassium silicate + phosphoric acid = monosilicic acid

 

[Moe.Red]

My mistake.

Potassium silicate + phosphoric acid = monosilicic acid

Ahh, let me help you with that. Put the doobie down first, this takes many important brain things in your head:

https://scienceinhydroponics.com/2023/02/common-questions-about-silicon-in-nutrient-solutions.html

 

[Rootsruler]

@Moe.Red

Is this true?

"Potassium silicate is a crystal that’s dissolved in water to separate potash and silicic acid before being bottled and sold. It doesn’t require microbes. When you buy a potassium silicate product, that is in liquid form with water, the potassium silicate dissolves to soluble potash and silicic acid. That’s what’s in the bottle. Liquid products are “DERIVED” from potassium silicate, but potassium silicate is not in the bottle. Potassium silicate is a powdered crystal and not a stable molecule in water."

What I'm gathering from this is ANY silicate product using PS dissolved in water is getting the same benefit as an MSA like Stout MSA so no need to pay more for the Stout?

 

[Observer]

@Moe.Red

Is this true?

"Potassium silicate is a crystal that’s dissolved in water to separate potash and silicic acid before being bottled and sold. It doesn’t require microbes. When you buy a potassium silicate product, that is in liquid form with water, the potassium silicate dissolves to soluble potash and silicic acid. That’s what’s in the bottle. Liquid products are “DERIVED” from potassium silicate, but potassium silicate is not in the bottle. Potassium silicate is a powdered crystal and not a stable molecule in water."

What I'm gathering from this is ANY silicate product using PS dissolved in water is getting the same benefit as an MSA like Stout MSA so no need to pay more for the Stout?

reads so.

 

[Moe.Red]

@Moe.Red

Is this true?

"Potassium silicate is a crystal that’s dissolved in water to separate potash and silicic acid before being bottled and sold. It doesn’t require microbes. When you buy a potassium silicate product, that is in liquid form with water, the potassium silicate dissolves to soluble potash and silicic acid. That’s what’s in the bottle. Liquid products are “DERIVED” from potassium silicate, but potassium silicate is not in the bottle. Potassium silicate is a powdered crystal and not a stable molecule in water."

What I'm gathering from this is ANY silicate product using PS dissolved in water is getting the same benefit as an MSA like Stout MSA so no need to pay more for the Stout?

I just looked that product up. Seems legit.

But yes you can buy potassium silicate crystals by the pound for almost nothing and it will last you decades. This is always the case with dry nutes tho. Cheaper and no marketing but does the same thing if you understand how to use them.

 

[Observer]

I just looked that product up. Seems legit.

But yes you can buy potassium silicate crystals by the pound for almost nothing and it will last you decades. This is always the case with dry nutes tho. Cheaper and no marketing but does the same thing if you understand how to use them.

sweet, thats what i needed

thanks


MSA is fuckin expensive.


id rather make the shit my self, anyways.

 

[Observer]

If you want to dig in with me, I would start your journey over at the science in hydroponics website and strap in, it gets deep pretty quick. Which is why this all needs to be simplified down to a best practices document. New growers, follow this advice to start, and as you get thru several grows it will start to sink in why you are doing this.

If you want the cliff notes version right now, it is to start the res with the potassium silicate and phosphoric acid I mentioned above. And tag me in if you have questions on your grow diary.

ill check it out, ill need to know it anyways.

 

[Observer]

Ahh, let me help you with that. Put the doobie down first, this takes many important brain things in your head:

https://scienceinhydroponics.com/2023/02/common-questions-about-silicon-in-nutrient-solutions.html

and now it makes sense

 

[SSgrower]

Hard for me to comment because I do it all wrong but you are talking "best practices " which i agree with.

Is buffering necessary? Im not so sure because I've done it both ways.

Buffering is to keep the water in an acceptable pH range for best uptake of nutrients given. 5.8-6.4pH is in the range. I just hit my 1 1/2gal. watering can with 1 pipette of pH down, haven't used a test pen in 1 yr or so. My 2 cent's, guys. SSgrower

 

[Observer]

So in my crazy scientist lab I am performing a host of experiments with buffering PH in hydro. Getting some help from Aqua and Franksta on that, and I am still in it. One of the biggest problems I have is things like buffering - it's not one thing. There is GH - general hardness, KH - (which most people consider the actual buffer you are looking for - this comes from the aquarium trade where people use kalkwasser and such to put calcium hardness in the water) but PH buffering is not just those 2 things.

The other things that cause buffering are not something I can measure

So I'm working on putting together a "best practices" sorta document to lead folks thru the recipe for how to best prep and maintain your res. The above info is part of that of course.

When I get this nailed down to a point where I can internalize it and easily explain it to a layman, that will become the sticky. Right now, I'm still in college on PH balance 102.

If you want to dig in with me, I would start your journey over at the science in hydroponics website and strap in, it gets deep pretty quick. Which is why this all needs to be simplified down to a best practices document. New growers, follow this advice to start, and as you get thru several grows it will start to sink in why you are doing this.

If you want the cliff notes version right now, it is to start the res with the potassium silicate and phosphoric acid I mentioned above. And tag me in if you have questions on your grow diary.

Why is it something you can't measure?

 

[Moe.Red]

Why is it something you can't measure?

They don't make test strips or meters for most of what is going on.

KH test strips are available, and that is what most people use. Only measures carbonate hardness. There is a lot more going on than just that, especially when adding nutrient salts.

The testing that exists is mostly for the aquarium trade, just a different purpose altogether.

 

[Mad Max]

So you would you use Silica in drain to waste with synthetics? Silica does raise my PH, but if I were to let it sit for a day before mixing nutes would this cause it not to rise in PH as much? Would be nice to use Silica in my grows but since it fks with my ph so much I dont.

mono Silic has a much lower ph than pot silica .I usually wait 5 hrs min before adding a+b nutes.by the time I add fulvic acid and cal/mag last ph is around 5.6-5.7 .add the up then wait half hr to an hr for it to settle .recheck the ph.I can come back the following day and would still b pretty close to the mark..using the silica actually stabilises my mix better than without it..I run it right through till 2 weeks to chop..I don’t run it full strength..

 

[Mad Max]

@Anthem275 . you mentioned to me awhile back that potassium silicate needs to b broken down before it can b taken up by the plant ,and takes quite awhile in coco/perlite to b available..since I changed to mono silic I’ve noticed plants look much healthier and quality is up..

 

[Rootsruler]

I just looked that product up. Seems legit.

But yes you can buy potassium silicate crystals by the pound for almost nothing and it will last you decades. This is always the case with dry nutes tho. Cheaper and no marketing but does the same thing if you understand how to use them.

If this is true then any silicate product using and derived from potassium silicate mixed into water would break down into silicic acid as stated. Are silicic and mono silicic acid the same?

 

[Moe.Red]

If this is true then any silicate product using and derived from potassium silicate mixed into water would break down into silicic acid as stated. Are silicic and mono silicic acid the same?

This gets a little deep. Here are a few excerpts

Silicic acid and monosilicic acid are often used interchangeably. To be precise, silicic acid is a broader category that includes monosilicic acid, disilicic acid and other oligomers.

Potassium silicate, the most soluble silicate salt, is known for its beneficial properties. When mixed in solution, it results in the controlled release of potassium ions and silicic acid—specifically, monosilicic acid. It can be used in both hydroponics and soil because it remains stable regardless of the growing medium.

monosilicic acid, which they mention on their label, is in fact the only plant-available form of silicon. But it is highly unstable. You cannot bottle silicic acid in a solution higher than 100 to 200 ppm. At higher concentrations, it falls out of solution and precipitates as silica (a.k.a. silicon dioxide). Silica, or silicon dioxide, itself is inert and cannot be absorbed by plants. The only way to achieve greater concentrations of silicic acid is to use a counter ion such as K+ or Na+ or Ca+, which traps silicic acid as a silicate.

 

[Rootsruler]

So my take away is as long as the PS is diluted into water it'll have a high concentration of MSA. Armor SI is derived from PS so I have to assume that it has broken down into potash and MSA.

 

[Observer]

This gets a little deep. Here are a few excerpts

is to use a counter ion such as K+ or Na+ or Ca+, which traps silicic acid as a silicate.

A delivery system

 

[Moe.Red]

So my take away is as long as the PS is diluted into water it'll have a high concentration of MSA. Armor SI is derived from PS so I have to assume that it has broken down into potash and MSA.

With the caveat that unless you stabilize it as I mentioned above, MSA has limits to concentration.

And the P that comes out of it will impact your NPK ratios. Something to think about.

 

[LJFarming]

How did those Floraflex bags work out? I was thinking about getting some .

Sorry I’m just getting back to you Doobie. I am definitely pleased with how the Floraflex bags worked out. I bought 4 more cases. I just got new vegglings back in the bloom room and every plant is in Floraflex bags. One thing is for certain the COCO in the bags has a ton of COCO chunks and there is no need for perlite. I plan to look into the Canna bags as well.

 

[Observer]

Sorry I’m just getting back to you Doobie. I am definitely pleased with how the Floraflex bags worked out. I bought 4 more cases. I just got new vegglings back in the bloom room and every plant is in Floraflex bags. One thing is for certain the COCO in the bags has a ton of COCO chunks and there is no need for perlite. I plan to look into the Canna bags as well.

Saw recently a video, one customer received floraflex bags where the coco was so compressed he had to manually break each and every single one up, plants would not take.