'Failure is always an option' Bagseed Hydro grow

[smoke]

Well I could do a water change if needed. Did a res drain/fill only a couple weeks ago.

Also I'm wondering if they still look like they've been pollinated. Gonna have to start some clones asap if so.

@WeedRider , as far as the ppm your running its on the high range of high imo.

Im currently on day 12 of flower and did a water change yesterday because the npk was out of balance and they stopped eating. The highest ive got with these particular girls is 690 on the 700 scale or 1.0 EC .... LESS IS MORE

 

[WeedRider]

@WeedRider , as far as the ppm your running its on the high range of high imo.

Im currently on day 12 of flower and did a water change yesterday because the npk was out of balance and they stopped eating. The highest ive got with these particular girls is 690 on the 700 scale or 1.0 EC .... LESS IS MORE

Ok I've got the EC down to 1.5 will see how that goes. I had thought the plants should have stretched more, the buds are developing but not gaining much height last couple weeks.

If that chart is wrong about EC maybe we should find a better one to replace it with. I've see 2-2.5 ec during flower mentioned other places as well.

 

[smoke]

Ok I've got the EC down to 1.5 will see how that goes. I had thought the plants should have stretched more, the buds are developing but not gaining much height last couple weeks.

If that chart is wrong about EC maybe we should find a better one to replace it with. I've see 2-2.5 ec during flower mentioned other places as well.

A chart is only a guideline, most people recommend to use only 1/2 the posted ppm rates in hydro.

Note: most on this forum will post ppms using the 500 scale. I believe im the only one to post using the 700 scale because im looking at the small changes daily. Looking at the chart below if i was using EC scale i wouldn't see a drop from 1.0 EC to 0.9 until my 700 ppm dropped to 630

 

[WeedRider]

A chart is only a guideline, most people recommend to use only 1/2 the posted ppm rates in hydro.

Ah ok good to know. I forget not everyone is doing hydro.

Note: most on this forum will post ppms using the 500 scale. I believe im the only one to post using the 700 scale because im looking at the small changes daily. Looking at the chart below if i was using EC scale i wouldn't see a drop from 1.0 EC to 0.9 until my 700 ppm dropped to 630

Aren't most TDS meters accurate to 2 decimals? I never understood why people use PPM scales, it's all based on uS/cm anyway. Accuracy of the scale is meaningless if it's all derived from uS/cm. There's no precision gained (assuming enough digits in the readout). Just use the base measurement and be done with it. No scales to worry about. Just my newb opinion but ppm is useless.

 

[smoke]

Ah ok good to know. I forget not everyone is doing hydro.


Aren't most TDS meters accurate to 2 decimals? I never understood why people use PPM scales, it's all based on uS/cm anyway. Accuracy of the scale is meaningless if it's all derived from uS/cm. There's no precision gained (assuming enough digits in the readout). Just use the base measurement and be done with it. No scales to worry about. Just my newb opinion but ppm is useless.

There is precision gained.

If i was using the EC scale and my ECreading was 1.0 it would take possibly 2 or 3 days for the reading to drop to 0.9

1.0 EC = 700 PPM on the 700 scale
0.9 EC = 630 PPM on the 700

That's a 70 ppm difference

 

[Anthem275]

Ah ok good to know. I forget not everyone is doing hydro.


Aren't most TDS meters accurate to 2 decimals? I never understood why people use PPM scales, it's all based on uS/cm anyway. Accuracy of the scale is meaningless if it's all derived from uS/cm. There's no precision gained (assuming enough digits in the readout). Just use the base measurement and be done with it. No scales to worry about. Just my newb opinion but ppm is useless.

I believe you are correct.

 

[WeedRider]

If i was using the EC scale and my ECreading was 1.0 it would take possibly 2 or 3 days for the reading to drop to 0.9

AFAIK most EC probes work by measuring uS/cm. Then they convert to everything else. If the source of precision is always uS/cm, the increased precision of the PPM scales is just an illusion. We can't make the sensor more sensitive by changing units. We can display the measured precision in increasingly accurate scales but that means nothing if the sensor hasn't changed.

Maybe they use rounding for the displayed figures? So EC precision is limited by the display not having enough digits. PPM would use the internal floating point value and that that could result in better readings.

 

[Anthem275]

AFAIK most EC probes work by measuring uS/cm. Then they convert to everything else. If the source of precision is always uS/cm, the increased precision of the PPM scales is just an illusion. We can't make the sensor more sensitive by changing units. We can display the measured precision in increasingly accurate scales but that means nothing if the sensor hasn't changed.

Maybe they use rounding for the displayed figures? So EC precision is limited by the display not having enough digits. PPM would use the internal floating point value and that that could result in better readings.

You are 100 percent correct. A pen or probe does not measure PPM's but uses a processor and a formula to generate a PPM reading.

 

[smoke]

You are 100 percent correct. A pen or probe does not measure PPM's but uses a processor and a formula to generate a PPM reading.

Agree with both, BUT using EC instead of ppm i wouldn't get a daily drop in the EC readings

I'll switch to EC tomorrow to show

 

[WeedRider]

Here's what the display on mine looks in uS/cm mode. No loss of precision as it goes to 4 digits. If you're only seeing 1 digit past the decimal in EC mode that's not super precise as you've said. Get a meter that does 4 digit EC with graphite probes and forget all about PPM.

 

[smoke]

Here's what the display on mine looks in uS/cm mode. No loss of precision as it goes to 4 digits. If you're only seeing 1 digit past the decimal in EC mode that's not super precise as you've said. Get a meter that does 4 digit EC with graphite probes and forget all about PPM.

View attachment 18985

I use blue lab monitors and now that you mention it i don't know if ive read mine on EC mode. I'll check it out tomorrow.
EC= not many

 

[WeedRider]

@smoke Guessing from the manual, for some reason they limit the precision displayed in EC/CM mode. In that case using PPM 700 makes perfect sense.

 

[smoke]

@smoke Guessing from the manual, for some reason they limit the precision displayed in EC/CM mode. In that case using PPM 700 makes perfect sense.


View attachment 18993

You know i still have to look tomorrow lol.

Anyway your EC is too high imo

 

[WeedRider]

Anyway your EC is too high imo

Yes totally agree I need to lower the EC regardless. Thank you for the help.

I'm drifting in the wind without you guys.

 

[WeedRider]

Another update since I'm stuck at home tonight as I blew a swaybar link pulling into my driveway last night. Simple job but Volvo doesn't feel it's important to be open on weekends since covid.

Huge difference in Co2 already! The plants have woken up? Sensor is right at canopy level. Check the Co2 levels for this past week.




Here's a 6hr view. Co2 crashes right after the water change. Much better respiration.

 

[Seb]

Is your EC sensor also from Atlas Scientific? You should be able to see if EC is drifting up or down. From my understanding you want it to drift down slightly (or stay the same, never increase). That way you know the plants are consuming slightly more nutrients than water. On the other hand, if EC is increasing they are sucking the water out of the solution leaving nutrients behind. The increase in concentration will spiral out of control into ever higher EC and lockout / slowed growth.

Not sure to what extent that works in practice. The sensor needs to be spot on. I've been playing around with a cheap sensor but in my case there are other factors that impact the measurements. Despite using a temperature sensor I can see the temps have an impact on my results. Also it seems that some gunk is building up on the sensor resulting in low measurements...

 

[smoke]

Is your EC sensor also from Atlas Scientific? You should be able to see if EC is drifting up or down. From my understanding you want it to drift down slightly (or stay the same, never increase). That way you know the plants are consuming slightly more nutrients than water. On the other hand, if EC is increasing they are sucking the water out of the solution leaving nutrients behind. The increase in concentration will spiral out of control into ever higher EC and lockout / slowed growth.

Not sure to what extent that works in practice. The sensor needs to be spot on. I've been playing around with a cheap sensor but in my case there are other factors that impact the measurements. Despite using a temperature sensor I can see the temps have an impact on my results. Also it seems that some gunk is building up on the sensor resulting in low measurements...

Couple charts that pertain to what your saying .

 

[GrumpAzz]

I'm drifting in the wind without you guys.

Me to a T

 

[smoke]

I use blue lab monitors and now that you mention it i don't know if ive read mine on EC mode. I'll check it out tomorrow.
EC= not many


View attachment 18989

I'm just increasing the ppms daily as they are eating. They ate 40 ppms on 700 scale and 0 on the EC scale

 

[WeedRider]

FML, found mites on the mother plant in the lung room today. Sprayed it down with soapy water + neem oil.




Dunno if the lower EC is working or not. Got it down to 1.1 now but B3 is showing these weird clusters of pistils on a couple of buds. Maybe just new growth since it's not locked out? Also most of the leaves are getting rust spots.

 

[moe.red]

Great documentation.

What I see is a plant that was overfed. You can see it on the tips, in the veins, and with the coloring. IMO plants are more susceptible to problems with too much feeding, or more appropriately imbalances for the stage of the plant.

If it has really been 26 days since a water change, I'd say you are overdue. Can you see the roots?

I'll scroll back thru the thread and see if I can answer the rest of my questions.

 

[moe.red]

@smoke Guessing from the manual, for some reason they limit the precision displayed in EC/CM mode. In that case using PPM 700 makes perfect sense.


View attachment 18993

Yes I'm on the same track, except I use 500 scale because it is more of a standard and the math is easier on my stoney lump I call a brain.

It is undoubtedly a calculation only, you are not really upping the sensitivity or anything. 700 is the same sensitivity as 500, just math applied to give you a bigger number. Pick one and stick with it so you get used to the numbers and what adding x ml of whatever does in your system.

 

[WeedRider]

What I see is a plant that was overfed. You can see it on the tips, in the veins, and with the coloring. IMO plants are more susceptible to problems with too much feeding, or more appropriately imbalances for the stage of the plant.

If it has really been 26 days since a water change, I'd say you are overdue. Can you see the roots?

Yea it seems EC was way high for a while. I did a 50-60% change yesterday.

pH was around 6 after the change and has dropped .12 in about 24 hr. EC has also risen very slightly, .01-.02 since then.

 

[GoodShit97]

FML, found mites on the mother plant in the lung room today. Sprayed it down with soapy water + neem oil.

Shiiit man that sucks.
Ive been reading a lot lately on bugs and getting rid of them.
Id get after them with a dusting if micronized sulfur, then 4 days later spray them down with water to remove any dead ones and hit them again the night of the 4th day or on the 5th day.
Id do that for like 2 or 3 weeks.

 

[moe.red]

Yea it seems EC was way high for a while. I did a 50-60% change yesterday.

pH was around 6 after the change and has dropped .12 in about 24 hr. EC has also risen very slightly, .01-.02 since then.

At this point, ride it out. Scrolling back thru, I'm thinking you are learning a ton this grow and next one will be so much better.

 

[WeedRider]

At this point, ride it out. Scrolling back thru, I'm thinking you are learning a ton this grow and next one will be so much better.

Cool man appreciate the insight. Will roll one up and let it ride for now. Always trying to soak up as much as I can. Lots of great wisdom here.

 

[WeedRider]

Shiiit man that sucks.
Ive been reading a lot lately on bugs and getting rid of them.
Id get after them with a dusting if micronized sulfur, then 4 days later spray them down with water to remove any dead ones and hit them again the night of the 4th day or on the 5th day.
Id do that for like 2 or 3 weeks.

Mites have me worried but I've dealt with them before. Just not on flowering plants so I really don't want them spreading there.

I have some Permethrin that I'll hit the mothers with if I see any signs tomorrow.

 

[moe.red]

Cool man appreciate the insight. Will roll one up and let it ride for now. Always trying to soak up as much as I can. Lots of great wisdom here.

What is your background? You obviously are not afraid of EE.

What is your purpose for growing? Is your ultimate goal yield? Pheono hunting?

It's 4:20 here. hehe

 

[SweetLeafGrow]

pH was around 6 after the change and has dropped .12 in about 24 hr. EC has also risen very slightly, .01-.02 since then.

Hey WeedRider- I'd have to go back through and see your specifics but a rising EC together with a falling pH indicates you are still a bit hot on your nutrients.

 

[Rootsruler]

Not to be bummer but once webs are prevalent you're going to have a hard time eradicating them unless you're able to quarantine not only the plants but the room it's in.

Insecticidal soap and Neem aren't going to do much at this stage especially if they are mendo mites which are the worst. If you don't want to use harsh chemicals you can use a vacuum cleaner and clean them off that way but you'll have to be vigilant and do it for weeks before you break the life death cycle.

I like to use a product called Azamax. It is a neem oil derivative that can be used on fruits and vegetables 10 days before harvest. It'll kill any living mite that comes into contact while also killing any hatchlings as long as you reapply every few days depending on the depth of your infestation. I usually need about 2 weeks to eradicate the infestation, again, depending on the depth of the infestation. It's also OMRI listed.

I like to do a soil drench along with my first application to get ahead of the hatchlings in the soil.

 

[WeedRider]

What is your background? You obviously are not afraid of EE.

What is your purpose for growing? Is your ultimate goal yield? Pheono hunting?

It's 4:20 here. hehe

Just growing for personal use right now. $200 oz I can save a lot of money with better quality (eventually). Network/IT guy and like playing around with MCU. Smoke weed ev'r dy!

 

[Seb]

Hey WeedRider- I'd have to go back through and see your specifics but a rising EC together with a falling pH indicates you are still a bit hot on your nutrients.

I recently learned that each component of fertiliser has a different impact on EC. Calcium has a disproportionately big impact. Plants could be consuming less calcium therefore the EC is increasing but everything else is on point. Not saying that is happening here, but it can. Hence water changes are required to some extent even if EC looks perfect. EC does not tell you which nutrients the plants are really using.

I think it was Prof Bugbee. He also said to think of fertiliser as minerals/vitamins for humans and light as the actual food. Plants mostly need the fertiliser to be able to use the light, which is the real source of energy.

Please correct me if I'm wrong...

 

[moe.red]

I recently learned that each component of fertiliser has a different impact on EC. Calcium has a disproportionately big impact. Plants could be consuming less calcium therefore the EC is increasing but everything else is on point. Not saying that is happening here, but it can. Hence water changes are required to some extent even if EC looks perfect. EC does not tell you which nutrients the plants are really using.

I think it was Prof Bugbee. He also said to think of fertiliser as minerals/vitamins for humans and light as the actual food. Plants mostly need the fertiliser to be able to use the light, which is the real source of energy.

Please correct me if I'm wrong...

I like the way you put that.

My only caveat is that nutes are not needed for photosynthesis. But they are needed to build the cells around it.

I did a quick search for EC of different nutes and didn’t find anything. That would be handy info to have. Basically the conductivity of different elements. If I can’t find something I can do a bench test and measure it.

 

[Seb]

I like the way you put that.

My only caveat is that nutes are not needed for photosynthesis. But they are needed to build the cells around it.

I did a quick search for EC of different nutes and didn’t find anything. That would be handy info to have. Basically the conductivity of different elements. If I can’t find something I can do a bench test and measure it.

Thanks for the clarification on photosynthesis.

I asked GPT4 but did not double check the output:

ChatGPT - Fertilizer EC Increase

Shared via ChatGPT

chat.openai.com

At a minimum I would assume the concept is accurate.

I googled this also. Seems to be linked to Purdue and looks legit. That is as far as my research currently goes.

(Calcium is not that impactful, only compared to Mg I guess - oops)

 

[tobh]

there's an old thread at the old place that went through this in depth. some old name, iirc it was seamaiden and gnome, dove deep into the whole conductivity of various minerals and how they impacted EC in a solution. good luck finding that stuff though. much of the late 2000s and early 2010s clandestine research is buried in the cesspool of the interwebz now.

 

[WeedRider]

Update on the mite situation. Hadn't seen any activity since I applied neem oil and alcohol via spray on Sat. But this morning they were back and now on both mother plants. Applied some Permethrin as the neem+alcohol really did a number on the mothers. They're not dead but darn near.

Also applied Permethrin to the outside of the tent near the vents. Going to move the mothers outside the lung room then treat it with insecticide spray. Should have done that from the start.

 

[WeedRider]

Week 8 update with photos. As far as I can tell things have been improving since I lowered the EC. Buds are getting bigger and I'm seeing some new growth under the canopy. I fear seeing mites every time I open the tent but so far been lucky. I've moved the mothers out of the lunch room just in case. I also applied vegetable safe general purpose pesticide to the corners of the lung room and along the bottom of the tent (on the outside).

With this lower EC it's much harder to adjust pH, I keep overshooting. Sort of getting the hang of it. Might start using higher ratio tap to RO to increase the buffering.

Overall view



B1. Not doing great but not really in the way so I've left it.



B3 buds. These are kinda starting to look like Northern Lights to my untrained eye. This plant has shown some new growth under the canopy with healthier looking green leaves.

B3 buds

B3 Buds




B4 buds. Can tell they are a different plant than B3. These have been doing really well.


B4 bud

B4 bud



Just added some water you can see how the pH goes crazy even though I pH the water to match before I add it.

 

[WeedRider]

Week 9 update. Think one more week and they will be ready to chop. Trichomes are turning white and I think I see a few amber on B4. I bought a USB microscope but wasn't able to get any decent close-ups out of it.

B4 buds.





B3 buds, getting nice and white




B1 bud

 

[WeedRider]

Found more nanners yesterday. B3 plant instead of on B4 like before. Clipped that bud and was able to take some slightly better photos of the trips. Thinking I should chop this plant very soon, tomorrow or this weekend. The younger plant B4 seems like it could use another week most of the pistils are still white.


Dashboard for last week, ignore the light cycle irregularities. Been having some issues with sensor reliability.



Photos are all of B3.

 

[WeedRider]

Decided to have a go at the water cure method with this first bud. No smell would be an advantage in certain situations. Plus can't beat the time saved.

How to Water Cure Your Weed - RQS Blog

Water curing weed offers an alternative method to air curing that is much quicker. Although effective, water curing does pose some major downsides.

www.royalqueenseeds.com

So far no signs of mites or mold in the tent, fingers crossed. I have 6 clones going in the aerogarden plus a couple downstairs yet.