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One_bell here, newbie and need advice on RDWC and auto's for 2nd run
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They look darker than your last pic of roots. Are you checking for root rot?
I didn't see if your running sterile or BB....
Sorry for the long wait response. First thing I did was upgrading the airpump, I now use the Hailea V20 (20l/pm) allmost three times as much as the stock one (Hailea Aco 9602), and I can use three lines per plant instead of one. Everything air-wise is functioning as it should now. Glad I had new airstones in stock, worst case I also have a brand new V20 in stock so I can replace it immediately when the time comes.If you are looking for a new pump, Alita's are rock solid pumps and possibly the quietest around for their power.
Alita AL-6A Linear Air Pump
Runs on 13 watts and has a air output of 10 lpm @ 1.4 psi. Supplied discharge fittings: 3/16" & 3/8" barb, 3/8" barb with 5mm IDkensfish.com
I used the min my fishroom and would never use a different brand again.
Alita Air Pumps
Alita air pumps are very quiet and dependable. The Alita pumps come in a range of sizes that can drive 6 outlets or over 200 outlets. Alita pumps are excellent for fish rooms and are very easily rebuilt.
It works, it colonizes the roots, and can still create a symbiotic relationship.
I've been wanting to get liquid mycorrhizae; Orca, to use in my AeroTote.
I asked the plant revolution and they mailed me back with quite the honest reply if you ask me:
Honestly Great White is the best all around product for Hydroponics. You can experiment with low doses of Mycochum. It will add some microbe stimulators that may improve Great White’s efficacy. Orca would be redundant to Great White. King Crab is worth experimenting with. It really enhances the bacteria count on Great White.
Great White by itself is still my go-to advice.
JIm Eagan
So I kept using Great White and decided not adding Orca, Mycochum and King Crab(last one being to expensive).
That is probably because of the light and staining from the nutes. The water is 18C continues and I use Great White which are beneficials if I got it right. More pics of this morning:
Day 29 since sprouting:
Left one:
Right one:
They are not growing as quickly as the F1 Orion's from the first round. They finally did started to drink and PPM's fell back to 320, so I've topped of the res to 420 again (EC 0.6). The one on the right still seems behind the left one. Until this point they had 24/7 light, I am thinking of scaling back to 18/6 to give them some rest.
For reference the Orion's on day 30: (which I overfed and had on a 18/6 schedule)
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Observer
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its myco and beneficial bacteria
The key ingredients in Great White Premium Mycorrhizae include:
Endomycorrhizae:
Ectomycorrhizae:
Beneficial Bacteria:
Trichoderma:
""This combination of microorganisms is designed to form a symbiotic relationship with plant roots, promoting healthier and more vigorous growth.""
The key ingredients in Great White Premium Mycorrhizae include:
Endomycorrhizae:
- Glomus aggregatum
- Glomus intraradices
- Glomus mosseae
- Glomus etunicatum
- Glomus clarum
- Glomus monosporum
- Paraglomus brazilianum
- Glomus deserticola
- Gigaspora margarita
Ectomycorrhizae:
- Pisolithus tinctorius
- Rhizopogon luteolus
- Rhizopogon fulvigleba
- Rhizopogon villosullus
- Rhizopogon amylopogon
- Scleroderma citrinum
- Scleroderma cepa
Beneficial Bacteria:
- Azotobacter chroococcum
- Bacillus subtilis
- Bacillus licheniformis
- Bacillus azotoformans
- Bacillus megaterium
- Bacillus coagulans
- Bacillus pumilus
- Bacillus amyloliquefaciens
- Paenibacillus durum
- Paenibacillus polymyxa
- Saccharomyces cerevisiae (Yeast)
- Pseudomonas aureofaciens
- Pseudomonas fluorescens
Trichoderma:
- Trichoderma koningii
- Trichoderma harzianum
""This combination of microorganisms is designed to form a symbiotic relationship with plant roots, promoting healthier and more vigorous growth.""
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Like @Observer said the beneficial bacteria most use in hydro systems is not the same as Great White....I use "Hydroguard" for my BB to keep the bad things away. I may try some GW in the rdwc to see what happens.Sorry for the long wait response. First thing I did was upgrading the airpump, I now use the Hailea V20 (20l/pm) allmost three times as much as the stock one (Hailea Aco 9602), and I can use three lines per plant instead of one. Everything air-wise is functioning as it should now. Glad I had new airstones in stock, worst case I also have a brand new V20 in stock so I can replace it immediately when the time comes.
I asked the plant revolution and they mailed me back with quite the honest reply if you ask me:
Honestly Great White is the best all around product for Hydroponics. You can experiment with low doses of Mycochum. It will add some microbe stimulators that may improve Great White’s efficacy. Orca would be redundant to Great White. King Crab is worth experimenting with. It really enhances the bacteria count on Great White.
Great White by itself is still my go-to advice.
JIm Eagan
So I kept using Great White and decided not adding Orca, Mycochum and King Crab(last one being to expensive).
That is probably because of the light and staining from the nutes. The water is 18C continues and I use Great White which are beneficials if I got it right. More pics of this morning:
Day 29 since sprouting:
Left one:
View attachment 99400
View attachment 99401
Right one:
View attachment 99398
View attachment 99399
They are not growing as quickly as the F1 Orion's from the first round. They finally did started to drink and PPM's fell back to 320, so I've topped of the res to 420 again (EC 0.6). The one on the right still seems behind the left one. Until this point they had 24/7 light, I am thinking of scaling back to 18/6 to give them some rest.
For reference the Orion's on day 30: (which I overfed and had on a 18/6 schedule)
Make sure before adding that hydroguard is not killing the bennies in Great White, I don't know if they are compatible.
If compared to liquid Orca you will notice Orca has less stuff in it the listed above, hence the reaction if Jim I guess. I would love to try King Crab to add, but it is to expensive for me to just try out (because of the shelve life, 6 months according to Jim).
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I'm not a fan of 24/7 after week 2...I think we tend to push to hard with lights...at least I do.
Some pics of last monday:
Now, two days later the one on the left seems to struggle:
Currently the one on the right looks better:
I removed the yellow crispy leaves and did some LST:
Last monday I topped the reservoir to 420ppm again, yesterday I switched back to the 18/6 schedule for the lights. VPD is between 1 and 1.2, pH went from 5.8 to 6.1 the last couple of days and the plants seem to be drinking. They do not look really happy
I do see budsites being developped and white hairs are slowly rising, so at least I've got that going lol
Now, two days later the one on the left seems to struggle:
Currently the one on the right looks better:
I removed the yellow crispy leaves and did some LST:
Last monday I topped the reservoir to 420ppm again, yesterday I switched back to the 18/6 schedule for the lights. VPD is between 1 and 1.2, pH went from 5.8 to 6.1 the last couple of days and the plants seem to be drinking. They do not look really happy
I do see budsites being developped and white hairs are slowly rising, so at least I've got that going lol
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I apologize but I have no clue what is going on with those plants. Perhaps @moe.red or @Aqua Man might be around to ask you the right questions to figure out what is wrong. They do look very unhappy at the moment.
Hate to be the one to say it, but I'm wondering if you may have bugs of some sort. Hope I am wrong!
Hate to be the one to say it, but I'm wondering if you may have bugs of some sort. Hope I am wrong!
Observer
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How are the roots looking?Some pics of last monday:
View attachment 100416
Now, two days later the one on the left seems to struggle:
View attachment 100418
View attachment 100417
Currently the one on the right looks better:
View attachment 100419
I removed the yellow crispy leaves and did some LST:
View attachment 100420
Last monday I topped the reservoir to 420ppm again, yesterday I switched back to the 18/6 schedule for the lights. VPD is between 1 and 1.2, pH went from 5.8 to 6.1 the last couple of days and the plants seem to be drinking. They do not look really happy
I do see budsites being developped and white hairs are slowly rising, so at least I've got that going lol
No bugs so far, nothing has changed from the previous round except for the feeding (and not using aeroponics to start the seedlings with).
Roots did grow and look healthy, a little bit stained from the feeding both not slimy are something like that.
Observer
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Drinking but not uptaking the nutrients?
Hmm
What's the res temperature?
Roots look okay?
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Scroll back a page and look at his last pic of roots....The one looks worse than the other...and it's has progressed from earlier pics. Also I think there is only mycos in there for BB.
Yeah, I just topped the reservoir again to lower the ppm a bit, it drifted to 430 and has been 420 for the last days since topping off the reservoir with nutrients. The temperature is controlled by a chiller set to 18C and stays between 17-19C. The roots look a bit stained, but that was also the case with the first round I did.
Should I use more beneficial bacteria besides Great White?
Picture I took this afternoon (day 39 from sprouting):
Left:
Right:
While in the beginning the left one was way ahead of the right one, things have turned around and now I am slightly starting to worry if the left one will even survive.
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Great White may be beneficial to the roots but it's not what is typically referred to as a BB in hydro. The ones usually used work by overwhelming any other that may be in there.....where myco's like Great White aren't meant for that at all. Hopefully @moe.red can chime in maybe and get us straightened out on that?? or anybody that has more knowledge than me.....which again is anybody...lol
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it's the best there is and shouldn't "need" anything more.
post a pic of your roots if you can, i'd like to see the staining you mentioned.
enzymes will turn your roots white in front of your eyes!!! ... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0C8WJX5GQ
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Thank you for the input....I had never heard of running mycos as the BB in hydro. Is it a common thing that I just haven't been exposed too?
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I heard Orca was better than great white cuz it has all the same BB plus fungi making it a more complete product
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I use Big Foot Gold and have been told by separate sources it was specifically made for cannabis.
How this is true I have no clue. I believe it is a specific fungus it grows/encourages?
Big Foot Gold - Big Foot Mycorrhizae
Big Foot Gold boosts plant growth by enhancing the plant's ability to absorb nutrients and water, leading to larger, healthier, and more vibrant plants. It stands out as the most concentrated product on the market, boasting over 100 times more active ingredients than its competitors. This...
bigfootmyco.com
Observer
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heres a summary i had Gemini do of the 2 products.
a comparison of Plant Revolution's Great White and ORCA products, with relevance to their use in Deep Water Culture (DWC) systems:
Great White Premium Mycorrhizae:
Both products offer a blend of beneficial microbes intended to improve root health and nutrient uptake.
The main difference relevant to DWC appears to be the formulation: Great White is a powder that can leave sediment, while ORCA is a liquid designed for easier integration into hydroponic systems like DWC without the sediment issue. Some users find ORCA more convenient and cleaner for DWC, while others feel Great White, with its potentially broader spectrum of microbes (including trichoderma), might offer different or additional benefits despite the sediment.
Both products aim to create a healthier root environment, which is crucial in DWC for preventing common problems like root rot.
Please note that this information is based on summaries and user discussions found through Google Search, as I was unable to access the specific product pages on the provided URLs.
a comparison of Plant Revolution's Great White and ORCA products, with relevance to their use in Deep Water Culture (DWC) systems:
Great White Premium Mycorrhizae:
- Type: Primarily a powder containing a diverse blend of mycorrhizal fungi species, beneficial bacteria strains, and also includes trichoderma fungi, plant vitamins, and glycine.
- How it Works: Aims to establish a symbiotic relationship between the fungi and plant roots, extending the root system's reach for improved water and nutrient uptake. The bacteria and trichoderma also contribute to root health and defense.
- Use in DWC: While the product description states it can be used in hydroponics, user discussions specifically about DWC mention that the powder form can sometimes leave sediment or a film in the reservoir. This sediment is generally considered inert, but it can potentially clog air stones, pumps, or filters over time, requiring more frequent reservoir cleaning.
- Benefits Claimed: Enhanced plant and root growth, increased water and nutrient uptake, reduced transplant shock, improved vigor, and help in preventing root diseases.
- Type: A liquid microbial product containing a blend of mycorrhizal fungi species and beneficial bacteria strains. Some sources indicate it has fewer microbial species than Great White, specifically lacking trichoderma.
- How it Works: Similar to Great White, it aims to enhance nutrient and water uptake through mycorrhizal association and beneficial bacteria activity, promoting healthy root development and disease resistance.
- Use in DWC: ORCA is often highlighted in user discussions as being more suitable or easier to use in DWC compared to Great White because it is a liquid and does not leave the same level of sediment. Users report good results and clean reservoirs with ORCA in DWC systems. It is designed to be easily mixed into the reservoir solution.
- Benefits Claimed: Increased nutrient and water uptake, stronger root systems, enhanced plant growth and yield, and help in preventing root diseases.
Both products offer a blend of beneficial microbes intended to improve root health and nutrient uptake.
The main difference relevant to DWC appears to be the formulation: Great White is a powder that can leave sediment, while ORCA is a liquid designed for easier integration into hydroponic systems like DWC without the sediment issue. Some users find ORCA more convenient and cleaner for DWC, while others feel Great White, with its potentially broader spectrum of microbes (including trichoderma), might offer different or additional benefits despite the sediment.
Both products aim to create a healthier root environment, which is crucial in DWC for preventing common problems like root rot.
Please note that this information is based on summaries and user discussions found through Google Search, as I was unable to access the specific product pages on the provided URLs.
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Observer
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yes
Focus on Endomycorrhizae: Cannabis plants form a symbiotic relationship with Endomycorrhizal fungi (specifically, Arbuscular Mycorrhizae - AM). Big Foot Gold contains a blend of several species of Endomycorrhizal spores known to effectively colonize the roots of a wide range of plants that form this type of symbiosis, including cannabis, hemp, most vegetables, fruits, and flowers.
- Exclusion of Ectomycorrhizae: Big Foot Gold specifically does not contain Ectomycorrhizae. This type of mycorrhizae forms a different kind of association, primarily with trees (like pines and oaks), and does not colonize the roots of cannabis or most cultivated plants. By excluding Ectomycorrhizae, the product focuses its propagules on the type of symbiosis relevant to cannabis and similar plants, making it more targeted.
- Exclusion of Competing Microbes: Some sources for Big Foot Gold state that it does not contain Trichoderma fungi. The reason given is that studies have shown Trichoderma can compete with mycorrhizal fungi when applied together. By excluding Trichoderma, the formulation aims to maximize the successful colonization and establishment of the beneficial Endomycorrhizal fungi.
- Inclusion of Beneficial Bacteria: Beyond the mycorrhizal fungi, Big Foot Gold also includes a high concentration of specific beneficial Bacillus bacteria. These bacteria can play roles in nutrient cycling (like making phosphorus and nitrogen more available to the plant), promoting root growth, and potentially helping to suppress pathogens. This combination of targeted mycorrhizae and beneficial bacteria is designed to create an optimal root environment for plants like cannabis that benefit from these specific microbial activities.
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Observer
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the likely reasons why the ORCA liquid product does not contain Trichoderma, unlike Great White powder, are primarily related to formulation stability and microbial compatibility in a liquid suspension.
Here's a summary of the key points:
- Stability in Liquid: Keeping a diverse blend of live or viable microbes stable in a liquid over time for shelf life is complex. Some microbes are more challenging to maintain in a liquid suspension without them becoming overly active or losing viability.
- Trichoderma Activity: Trichoderma species are known for their active nature and can compete with or even impact other fungi and bacteria. Including them in a liquid with other beneficial microbes could potentially lead to issues with the overall balance, viability, or stability of the product during storage.
- Compatibility: Ensuring that Trichoderma is compatible with the specific species of mycorrhizal fungi and beneficial bacteria included in ORCA's blend, within a liquid medium, adds another layer of complexity.
Essentially, the exclusion of Trichoderma from the ORCA liquid formulation is likely a deliberate choice made by the manufacturer to ensure the stability, shelf life, and intended performance of the specific blend of mycorrhizal fungi and beneficial bacteria that are included in the product when it is in liquid form. Liquid formulations have different requirements for maintaining microbial viability compared to dormant microbes in a powder.
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Observer
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haha, just want to try and help the community and clear up any confusions. i was curious why the liquid version did not contain some of the stuff the powder version did, the ones its missing are probably better in mediums.
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We all appreciate it! I may have to look into the big foot though if it's not powder, if so, I'll try Orca after I finish the hydroguard and king crab(dumb buy i think.)
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The benefit of king crab over hydroguard though is it suggests 1/2 ml per gallon while hydroguard suggests 2ml per gallon, otherwise I think they r the sameish?
Observer
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u in DWC? youll want ORCA and hydroguard, sounds good.
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Observer
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both contain bacillus. but different strains, neither contain fungi, so thats why i say the above.
Observer
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Okay, let's address your fellow member's questions about King Crab, Hydroguard, and using them in DWC.
- "The benefit of king crab over hydroguard though is it suggests 1/2 ml per gallon while hydroguard suggests 2ml per gallon, otherwise I think they r the sameish?"
- Dosage Difference: You are correct that the suggested dosage rates are different (King Crab is more concentrated, requiring less product per gallon).
- "Sameish"? While both products primarily contain beneficial Bacillus bacteria and are used for root health, they are not exactly the same. The difference in dosage suggests that King Crab has a higher concentration of its active bacterial blend per milliliter compared to Hydroguard. More importantly, they likely contain different specific strains or blends of Bacillus bacteria. Different strains can have different primary functions (e.g., some are better at root rot prevention, some excel at nutrient solubilization, others might focus on growth promotion). So, while they both introduce beneficial bacteria, they might not perform the exact same functions or provide the exact same spectrum of benefits. The dosage reflects concentration, not necessarily the overall spectrum of microbial activity or intended function compared to another product.
- "neither contain FUNGI/myco right?"
Correct. Based on the ingredient lists we've discussed:- Hydroguard: Contains beneficial bacteria only (Bacillus amyloliquefaciens).
- King Crab: Contains beneficial bacteria only (a blend of Bacillus species).Neither Hydroguard nor King Crab contain mycorrhizal fungi (myco) or other fungi like Trichoderma.
- "so i suggest just the ORCA and hygroguard in DWC environment?"
This is a reasonable suggestion for a DWC environment. Here's why:- Hydroguard: Provides a specific, well-regarded beneficial bacterium (Bacillus amyloliquefaciens) known for its effectiveness in preventing root rot, which is a common challenge in DWC.
- ORCA: Introduces a blend of Endomycorrhizal fungi (myco) and a different blend of beneficial Bacillus bacteria than Hydroguard.
- Combining them: By using Hydroguard and ORCA, you are introducing both beneficial bacteria (from two different sources, potentially covering a wider range of functions) and the mycorrhizal component. While the mycorrhizal fungi's function in a substrate-free DWC is different than in soil (less about exploring vast soil volumes), they can still contribute to root health and potentially aid in nutrient availability directly at the root surface. This combination provides a good spectrum of microbial support.
So, yes, suggesting ORCA and Hydroguard for a DWC system is a logical approach to introduce beneficial microbes for root health and improved plant performance.
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Close, rdwc, same as op. I appreciate the info, it was really informative. From the labels, king crab is more concentrated and has more forms of BB, still no fungi. I should not have said sameish, as they r'ish but aren't. Thanks for the comprehensive breakdown, it helped clear the differences of what diff BBs did.
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Hence why I should not open my mouthThanks for the vid, always good to learn more!
it's how i learn... i run my mouth till someone corrects me!!!!! hahaha
so all this time i've been growing hydro i have been buying orca because i always assumed great white can't be used in hydro.. then last week i finally read the label!!! so you're no worse off than i am!!! i've bought two bottles of orca in the past year all while i had a big bottle of great white sitting here!
it does leave some grit on the very bottom but not enough to bother me!!!
Observer
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I do that too sometimes, easy way to get fast answers, someone always wants to jump in and correct,
. Bothers me, lol I'm just anal about trying to keep my "systems" clean.
Both can definitely be used, the orca might just be "easier" and "cleaner" for r/dwc systems.
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Observer
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