One_bell here, newbie and need advice on RDWC and auto's for 2nd run

[SweetLeafGrow]

I apologize but I have no clue what is going on with those plants. Perhaps @moe.red or @Aqua Man might be around to ask you the right questions to figure out what is wrong. They do look very unhappy at the moment.

Hate to be the one to say it, but I'm wondering if you may have bugs of some sort. Hope I am wrong!

 

[Observer]

Some pics of last monday:

View attachment 100416

Now, two days later the one on the left seems to struggle:

View attachment 100418

View attachment 100417

Currently the one on the right looks better:

View attachment 100419

I removed the yellow crispy leaves and did some LST:

View attachment 100420

Last monday I topped the reservoir to 420ppm again, yesterday I switched back to the 18/6 schedule for the lights. VPD is between 1 and 1.2, pH went from 5.8 to 6.1 the last couple of days and the plants seem to be drinking. They do not look really happy

I do see budsites being developped and white hairs are slowly rising, so at least I've got that going lol

How are the roots looking?

 

[One_Bell]

I apologize but I have no clue what is going on with those plants. Perhaps @moe.red or @Aqua Man might be around to ask you the right questions to figure out what is wrong. They do look very unhappy at the moment.

Hate to be the one to say it, but I'm wondering if you may have bugs of some sort. Hope I am wrong!

No bugs so far, nothing has changed from the previous round except for the feeding (and not using aeroponics to start the seedlings with).

How are the roots looking?

Roots did grow and look healthy, a little bit stained from the feeding both not slimy are something like that.

 

[One_Bell]

Goodmorning all,

This morning the one on the left still looks droopy unfortunately. PPM is still 420 but the waterlevel declined so they are drinking.

 

[Observer]

Goodmorning all,

This morning the one on the left still looks droopy unfortunately. PPM is still 420 but the waterlevel declined so they are drinking.

Drinking but not uptaking the nutrients?

Hmm

What's the res temperature?
Roots look okay?

 

[Driver77]

Drinking but not uptaking the nutrients?

Hmm

What's the res temperature?
Roots look okay?

Scroll back a page and look at his last pic of roots....The one looks worse than the other...and it's has progressed from earlier pics. Also I think there is only mycos in there for BB.

 

[One_Bell]

Drinking but not uptaking the nutrients?

Hmm

What's the res temperature?
Roots look okay?

Yeah, I just topped the reservoir again to lower the ppm a bit, it drifted to 430 and has been 420 for the last days since topping off the reservoir with nutrients. The temperature is controlled by a chiller set to 18C and stays between 17-19C. The roots look a bit stained, but that was also the case with the first round I did.

Scroll back a page and look at his last pic of roots....The one looks worse than the other...and it's has progressed from earlier pics. Also I think there is only mycos in there for BB.

Should I use more beneficial bacteria besides Great White?

Picture I took this afternoon (day 39 from sprouting):


Left:


Right:


While in the beginning the left one was way ahead of the right one, things have turned around and now I am slightly starting to worry if the left one will even survive.

 

[Driver77]

Yeah, I just topped the reservoir again to lower the ppm a bit, it drifted to 430 and has been 420 for the last days since topping off the reservoir with nutrients. The temperature is controlled by a chiller set to 18C and stays between 17-19C. The roots look a bit stained, but that was also the case with the first round I did.



Should I use more beneficial bacteria besides Great White?

Picture I took this afternoon (day 39 from sprouting):

View attachment 100611
Left:

View attachment 100612
Right:
View attachment 100613

While in the beginning the left one was way ahead of the right one, things have turned around and now I am slightly starting to worry if the left one will even survive.

Great White may be beneficial to the roots but it's not what is typically referred to as a BB in hydro. The ones usually used work by overwhelming any other that may be in there.....where myco's like Great White aren't meant for that at all. Hopefully @moe.red can chime in maybe and get us straightened out on that?? or anybody that has more knowledge than me.....which again is anybody...lol

 

[Stoneyluv]

Should I use more beneficial bacteria besides Great White?

it's the best there is and shouldn't "need" anything more.

post a pic of your roots if you can, i'd like to see the staining you mentioned.

enzymes will turn your roots white in front of your eyes!!! ... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0C8WJX5GQ

 

[Driver77]

it's the best there is and shouldn't "need" anything more.

post a pic of your roots if you can, i'd like to see the staining you mentioned.

enzymes will turn your roots white in front of your eyes!!! ... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0C8WJX5GQ

Thank you for the input....I had never heard of running mycos as the BB in hydro. Is it a common thing that I just haven't been exposed too?

 

[Skinnypuppy80]

it's the best there is and shouldn't "need" anything more.

post a pic of your roots if you can, i'd like to see the staining you mentioned.

enzymes will turn your roots white in front of your eyes!!! ... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0C8WJX5GQ

I heard Orca was better than great white cuz it has all the same BB plus fungi making it a more complete product

 

[steamroller]

I heard Orca was better than great white cuz it has all the same BB plus fungi making it a more complete product

I use Big Foot Gold and have been told by separate sources it was specifically made for cannabis.
How this is true I have no clue. I believe it is a specific fungus it grows/encourages?

Big Foot Gold - Big Foot Mycorrhizae

Big Foot Gold boosts plant growth by enhancing the plant's ability to absorb nutrients and water, leading to larger, healthier, and more vibrant plants. It stands out as the most concentrated product on the market, boasting over 100 times more active ingredients than its competitors. This...

bigfootmyco.com

 

[Observer]

heres a summary i had Gemini do of the 2 products.



a comparison of Plant Revolution's Great White and ORCA products, with relevance to their use in Deep Water Culture (DWC) systems:

Great White Premium Mycorrhizae:

• Type: Primarily a powder containing a diverse blend of mycorrhizal fungi species, beneficial bacteria strains, and also includes trichoderma fungi, plant vitamins, and glycine.

• How it Works: Aims to establish a symbiotic relationship between the fungi and plant roots, extending the root system's reach for improved water and nutrient uptake. The bacteria and trichoderma also contribute to root health and defense.

• Use in DWC: While the product description states it can be used in hydroponics, user discussions specifically about DWC mention that the powder form can sometimes leave sediment or a film in the reservoir. This sediment is generally considered inert, but it can potentially clog air stones, pumps, or filters over time, requiring more frequent reservoir cleaning.

• Benefits Claimed: Enhanced plant and root growth, increased water and nutrient uptake, reduced transplant shock, improved vigor, and help in preventing root diseases.

ORCA Liquid Mycorrhizae:

• Type: A liquid microbial product containing a blend of mycorrhizal fungi species and beneficial bacteria strains. Some sources indicate it has fewer microbial species than Great White, specifically lacking trichoderma.

• How it Works: Similar to Great White, it aims to enhance nutrient and water uptake through mycorrhizal association and beneficial bacteria activity, promoting healthy root development and disease resistance.

• Use in DWC: ORCA is often highlighted in user discussions as being more suitable or easier to use in DWC compared to Great White because it is a liquid and does not leave the same level of sediment. Users report good results and clean reservoirs with ORCA in DWC systems. It is designed to be easily mixed into the reservoir solution.

• Benefits Claimed: Increased nutrient and water uptake, stronger root systems, enhanced plant growth and yield, and help in preventing root diseases.

Comparison Summary for DWC:
Both products offer a blend of beneficial microbes intended to improve root health and nutrient uptake.

The main difference relevant to DWC appears to be the formulation: Great White is a powder that can leave sediment, while ORCA is a liquid designed for easier integration into hydroponic systems like DWC without the sediment issue. Some users find ORCA more convenient and cleaner for DWC, while others feel Great White, with its potentially broader spectrum of microbes (including trichoderma), might offer different or additional benefits despite the sediment.

Both products aim to create a healthier root environment, which is crucial in DWC for preventing common problems like root rot.

---

Please note that this information is based on summaries and user discussions found through Google Search, as I was unable to access the specific product pages on the provided URLs.

 

[Observer]

How this is true I have no clue. I believe it is a specific fungus it grows/encourages?

yes




Focus on Endomycorrhizae: Cannabis plants form a symbiotic relationship with Endomycorrhizal fungi (specifically, Arbuscular Mycorrhizae - AM). Big Foot Gold contains a blend of several species of Endomycorrhizal spores known to effectively colonize the roots of a wide range of plants that form this type of symbiosis, including cannabis, hemp, most vegetables, fruits, and flowers.

• Exclusion of Ectomycorrhizae: Big Foot Gold specifically does not contain Ectomycorrhizae. This type of mycorrhizae forms a different kind of association, primarily with trees (like pines and oaks), and does not colonize the roots of cannabis or most cultivated plants. By excluding Ectomycorrhizae, the product focuses its propagules on the type of symbiosis relevant to cannabis and similar plants, making it more targeted.

• Exclusion of Competing Microbes: Some sources for Big Foot Gold state that it does not contain Trichoderma fungi. The reason given is that studies have shown Trichoderma can compete with mycorrhizal fungi when applied together. By excluding Trichoderma, the formulation aims to maximize the successful colonization and establishment of the beneficial Endomycorrhizal fungi.

• Inclusion of Beneficial Bacteria: Beyond the mycorrhizal fungi, Big Foot Gold also includes a high concentration of specific beneficial Bacillus bacteria. These bacteria can play roles in nutrient cycling (like making phosphorus and nitrogen more available to the plant), promoting root growth, and potentially helping to suppress pathogens. This combination of targeted mycorrhizae and beneficial bacteria is designed to create an optimal root environment for plants like cannabis that benefit from these specific microbial activities.

 

[Observer]

heres a summary i had Gemini do of the 2 products.



here is a comparison of Plant Revolution's Great White and ORCA products, with relevance to their use in Deep Water Culture (DWC) systems:
Great White Premium Mycorrhizae:

• Type: Primarily a powder containing a diverse blend of mycorrhizal fungi species, beneficial bacteria strains, and also includes trichoderma fungi, plant vitamins, and glycine.
• How it Works: Aims to establish a symbiotic relationship between the fungi and plant roots, extending the root system's reach for improved water and nutrient uptake. The bacteria and trichoderma also contribute to root health and defense.
• Use in DWC: While the product description states it can be used in hydroponics, user discussions specifically about DWC mention that the powder form can sometimes leave sediment or a film in the reservoir. This sediment is generally considered inert, but it can potentially clog air stones, pumps, or filters over time, requiring more frequent reservoir cleaning.
• Benefits Claimed: Enhanced plant and root growth, increased water and nutrient uptake, reduced transplant shock, improved vigor, and help in preventing root diseases.

ORCA Liquid Mycorrhizae:

• Type: A liquid microbial product containing a blend of mycorrhizal fungi species and beneficial bacteria strains. Some sources indicate it has fewer microbial species than Great White, specifically lacking trichoderma.
• How it Works: Similar to Great White, it aims to enhance nutrient and water uptake through mycorrhizal association and beneficial bacteria activity, promoting healthy root development and disease resistance.
• Use in DWC: ORCA is often highlighted in user discussions as being more suitable or easier to use in DWC compared to Great White because it is a liquid and does not leave the same level of sediment. Users report good results and clean reservoirs with ORCA in DWC systems. It is designed to be easily mixed into the reservoir solution.
• Benefits Claimed: Increased nutrient and water uptake, stronger root systems, enhanced plant growth and yield, and help in preventing root diseases.

Comparison Summary for DWC:
Both products offer a blend of beneficial microbes intended to improve root health and nutrient uptake. The main difference relevant to DWC appears to be the formulation: Great White is a powder that can leave sediment, while ORCA is a liquid designed for easier integration into hydroponic systems like DWC without the sediment issue. Some users find ORCA more convenient and cleaner for DWC, while others feel Great White, with its potentially broader spectrum of microbes (including trichoderma), might offer different or additional benefits despite the sediment.
Both products aim to create a healthier root environment, which is crucial in DWC for preventing common problems like root rot.

---

Please note that this information is based on summaries and user discussions found through Google Search, as I was unable to access the specific product pages on the provided URLs.

the likely reasons why the ORCA liquid product does not contain Trichoderma, unlike Great White powder, are primarily related to formulation stability and microbial compatibility in a liquid suspension.


Here's a summary of the key points:

• Stability in Liquid: Keeping a diverse blend of live or viable microbes stable in a liquid over time for shelf life is complex. Some microbes are more challenging to maintain in a liquid suspension without them becoming overly active or losing viability.

• Trichoderma Activity: Trichoderma species are known for their active nature and can compete with or even impact other fungi and bacteria. Including them in a liquid with other beneficial microbes could potentially lead to issues with the overall balance, viability, or stability of the product during storage.

• Compatibility: Ensuring that Trichoderma is compatible with the specific species of mycorrhizal fungi and beneficial bacteria included in ORCA's blend, within a liquid medium, adds another layer of complexity.

Essentially, the exclusion of Trichoderma from the ORCA liquid formulation is likely a deliberate choice made by the manufacturer to ensure the stability, shelf life, and intended performance of the specific blend of mycorrhizal fungi and beneficial bacteria that are included in the product when it is in liquid form. Liquid formulations have different requirements for maintaining microbial viability compared to dormant microbes in a powder.

 

[Skinnypuppy80]

I think u should change ur sn from @Observer to scientist, or guywhodoesresearch, or fui'lldothe research4urlazyass!! lol

 

[Observer]

I think u should change ur sn from @Observer to scientist, or guywhodoesresearch, or fui'lldothe research4urlazyass!! lol

haha, just want to try and help the community and clear up any confusions. i was curious why the liquid version did not contain some of the stuff the powder version did, the ones its missing are probably better in mediums.

 

[Skinnypuppy80]

haha, just want to try and help the community and clear up any confusions. i was curious why the liquid version did not contain some of the stuff the powder version did, the ones its missing are probably better in mediums

We all appreciate it! I may have to look into the big foot though if it's not powder, if so, I'll try Orca after I finish the hydroguard and king crab(dumb buy i think.)

 

[Skinnypuppy80]

The benefit of king crab over hydroguard though is it suggests 1/2 ml per gallon while hydroguard suggests 2ml per gallon, otherwise I think they r the sameish?

 

[Observer]

We all appreciate it! I may have to look into the big foot though if it's not powder, if so, I'll try Orca after I finish the hydroguard and king crab(dumb buy i think.)

u in DWC? youll want ORCA and hydroguard, sounds good.

 

[Observer]

The benefit of king crab over hydroguard though is it suggests 1/2 ml per gallon while hydroguard suggests 2ml per gallon, otherwise I think they r the sameish?

both contain bacillus. but different strains, neither contain fungi, so thats why i say the above.

 

[Observer]

The benefit of king crab over hydroguard though is it suggests 1/2 ml per gallon while hydroguard suggests 2ml per gallon, otherwise I think they r the sameish?

Okay, let's address your fellow member's questions about King Crab, Hydroguard, and using them in DWC.

1. "The benefit of king crab over hydroguard though is it suggests 1/2 ml per gallon while hydroguard suggests 2ml per gallon, otherwise I think they r the sameish?"
   • Dosage Difference: You are correct that the suggested dosage rates are different (King Crab is more concentrated, requiring less product per gallon).
   • "Sameish"? While both products primarily contain beneficial Bacillus bacteria and are used for root health, they are not exactly the same. The difference in dosage suggests that King Crab has a higher concentration of its active bacterial blend per milliliter compared to Hydroguard. More importantly, they likely contain different specific strains or blends of Bacillus bacteria. Different strains can have different primary functions (e.g., some are better at root rot prevention, some excel at nutrient solubilization, others might focus on growth promotion). So, while they both introduce beneficial bacteria, they might not perform the exact same functions or provide the exact same spectrum of benefits. The dosage reflects concentration, not necessarily the overall spectrum of microbial activity or intended function compared to another product.
2. "neither contain FUNGI/myco right?"
   Correct. Based on the ingredient lists we've discussed:
   • Hydroguard: Contains beneficial bacteria only (Bacillus amyloliquefaciens).
   • King Crab: Contains beneficial bacteria only (a blend of Bacillus species).Neither Hydroguard nor King Crab contain mycorrhizal fungi (myco) or other fungi like Trichoderma.
3. "so i suggest just the ORCA and hygroguard in DWC environment?"
   This is a reasonable suggestion for a DWC environment. Here's why:
   • Hydroguard: Provides a specific, well-regarded beneficial bacterium (Bacillus amyloliquefaciens) known for its effectiveness in preventing root rot, which is a common challenge in DWC.
   • ORCA: Introduces a blend of Endomycorrhizal fungi (myco) and a different blend of beneficial Bacillus bacteria than Hydroguard.
   • Combining them: By using Hydroguard and ORCA, you are introducing both beneficial bacteria (from two different sources, potentially covering a wider range of functions) and the mycorrhizal component. While the mycorrhizal fungi's function in a substrate-free DWC is different than in soil (less about exploring vast soil volumes), they can still contribute to root health and potentially aid in nutrient availability directly at the root surface. This combination provides a good spectrum of microbial support.

This combination also avoids the potential sediment issue of using Great White powder directly in a DWC reservoir and avoids the potential bacterial overlap redundancy you might get by adding King Crab as well, since ORCA already contains beneficial bacteria alongside the mycorrhizae.
So, yes, suggesting ORCA and Hydroguard for a DWC system is a logical approach to introduce beneficial microbes for root health and improved plant performance.