⚡Electrical Help Thread⚡

[GrumpAzz]

You can do the AC terminations in the light housing, no problem. We re-purpose old housings and panel cans all the time. Realistically though, there should be a junction box that the current light is mounted to. Then, all your DC terminations can be made wherever.

It's early for me seeing as how I was up plucking ballsacks off my plant until around 4 hours ago. I'm assuming your LEDs will drivers? Or are they plug-n-play LEDs? They make extension rings for nearly all the boxes you'd find in your house, if the connections don't all fit.

There aren't really any codes you'll need to follow for anything under 50 volts. The AC connections are all you really need to enclose and for the rest, just make it look good.

 

[tobh]

You can do the AC terminations in the light housing, no problem. We re-purpose old housings and panel cans all the time. Realistically though, there should be a junction box that the current light is mounted to. Then, all your DC terminations can be made wherever.

It's early for me seeing as how I was up plucking ballsacks off my plant until around 4 hours ago. I'm assuming your LEDs will drivers? Or are they plug-n-play LEDs? They make extension rings for nearly all the boxes you'd find in your house, if the connections don't all fit.

There aren't really any codes you'll need to follow for anything under 50 volts. The AC connections are all you really need to enclose and for the rest, just make it look good.

i haven't gotten that far into identifying the specific lights yet, but this is all really solid information to know. thank you sir!

 

[tobh]

is it kosher to splice wire into an existing line to extend the run?

for context, I want to move a light switch from a really dumb spot to a spot that makes sense closer to a door on another wall. I can safely assume that the line and load wires aren't going to reach the new location.

 

[GrumpAzz]

is it kosher to splice wire into an existing line to extend the run?

for context, I want to move a light switch from a really dumb spot to a spot that makes sense closer to a door on another wall. I can safely assume that the line and load wires aren't going to reach the new location.

You're good. Just don't bury your connections in the wall. By code they need to be accessible, so run your new wires, splice and put a blank plate over the box. Might be unsightly but the only other option is to pull the wires back into the attic (or crawlspace) and splice them into an approved box there, then patch the hole in the rock.

 

[GrumpAzz]

I don't usually like to give out free advice but this place is full of free advice and electrical knowledge is really my only way to contribute, so thanks for the opportunity.

 

[tobh]

You're good. Just don't bury your connections in the wall. By code they need to be accessible, so run your new wires, splice and put a blank plate over the box. Might be unsightly but the only other option is to pull the wires back into the attic (or crawlspace) and splice them into an approved box there, then patch the hole in the rock.

Might do the latter given what I'm dealing with here. Plan on putting in a GFCI here anyways since this outlet sits right next to a sink.

 

[GrumpAzz]

Might do the latter given what I'm dealing with here
View attachment 18665

Yeah, you'll be in the attic running new wires anyway so it makes sense to go that route. Looks like it's on a countertop, though. You sure you won't need that outlet there?

 

[tobh]

I don't usually like to give out free advice but this place is full of free advice and electrical knowledge is really my only way to contribute, so thanks for the opportunity.

certainly appreciate it! at some point i'll be asking for more in-depth confirmation that the circuits i'll be building are up to snuff. building a sealed room is a bit more electrically complex than fishing wires and moving switches.

 

[tobh]

Yeah, you'll be in the attic running new wires anyway so it makes sense to go that route. Looks like it's on a countertop, though. You sure you won't need that outlet there?

I will, but I'm not sure it's going to keep living there. There's a door to the left on the same wall that I'm going to be framing in and sealing because it's a dumb door. The switch needs to move to the next wall over, next to the other door. Then, I will be remodeling the bathroom and the vanity might move so if that happens then the outlet will need to move with it.

I also don't like the outlet not being a GFCI, nor being the two gang with a switch plus duplex outlets. From a safety and usability perspective I'd rather it be a single gang GFCI and the switch near the door.

 

[GrumpAzz]

I will, but I'm not sure it's going to keep living there. There's a door to the left on the same wall that I'm going to be framing in and sealing because it's a dumb door. The switch needs to move to the next wall over, next to the other door. Then, I will be remodeling the bathroom and the vanity might move so if that happens then the outlet will need to move with it.

I also don't like the outlet not being a GFCI, nor being the two gang with a switch plus duplex outlets. From a safety and usability perspective I'd rather it be a single gang GFCI and the switch near the door.

Can of worms, right there. Maybe

 

[tobh]

Can of worms, right there. Maybe

that's why i'm not calling an electrician to do it haha home advisor says it costs $100-$150 to move a switch but with something like this i fully anticipate it being much higher.

 

[smoke]

that's why i'm not calling an electrician to do it haha home advisor says it costs $100-$150 to move a switch but with something like this i fully anticipate it being much higher.

Can you get a code book.

Everything electrical is written down somewhere

 

[GrumpAzz]

that's why i'm not calling an electrician to do it haha home advisor says it costs $100-$150 to move a switch but with something like this i fully anticipate it being much higher.

My only thoughts are whether or not that switch is fed from that outlet.

 

[GrumpAzz]

Can you get a code book.

Everything electrical is written down somewhere

Not an easy book to interpret

 

[tobh]

Can you get a code book.

Everything electrical is written down somewhere

I probably could. I'll contact the county and see if they're publicly available. Actually didn't think about that... good idea!

My only thoughts are whether or not that switch is fed from that outlet.

So, I've had the plate off and there are three runs coming into the box. One run to the switch, and one to each side of the outlet. I haven't pulled the box out to check where the wires are running yet but it's wired kinda funky from what I expected

Not an easy book to interpret

Luckily i know my way around schematics, and at least DC theories. A bit rusty in the theory dept as I haven't used it extensively in quite a while but I'm sure I could figure out whatever the code specifies. If not I have y'all and my buddy who is a master electrician.

 

[GrumpAzz]

I probably could. I'll contact the county and see if they're publicly available. Actually didn't think about that... good idea!

They're pretty expensive.

So, I've had the plate off and there are three runs coming into the box. One run to the switch, and one to each side of the outlet. I haven't pulled the box out to check where the wires are running yet but it's wired kinda funky from what I expected

If you could open it up and pull the devices out, leaving the wires attached, I could give you a pretty good idea as to what's going on.

Luckily i know my way around schematics, and at least DC theories. A bit rusty in the theory dept as I haven't used it extensively in quite a while but I'm sure I could figure out whatever the code specifies. If not I have y'all and my buddy who is a master electrician.

There are no schematics or line diagrams. It's just worded to confuse the shit out of you so that passing the tests is more a show of comprehension than anything.

 

[tobh]

Let's talk GFCIs.

My original understanding was without a ground that runs back to the panel, they aren't any safer than a standard duplex plug. However, on an electrician's forum I found a massive discussion saying that they will still perform without ground wires attached.

The outlets I've replaced in my house so far all have had ground wires, so that's not a concern. I'm more curious what the standards are in the industry regarding GFCIs now. Specifically:

1. Do you only need on, ideally at the beginning of a circuit where there are multiple loads?
2. Would having every outlet be a GFCI be excessive?
3. How much benefit is to be gained by having GFCI vs tamper resistant duplex outlets?
4. Are grounds really necessary for GFCIs to work as intended (eg, shock a mofo but don't kill em).

 

[GoodShit97]

@GrumpAzz

 

[GrumpAzz]

I just got home from 17 hours on the road. I'll try to get to this here in a bit but if not, first thing in the morning. @tobh

 

[tobh]

I just got home from 17 hours on the road. I'll try to get to this here in a bit but if not, first thing in the morning. @tobh

Dude get some rest! Figured I'd pivot to a question more relevant to the builders of bud rooms. Anyone that's not a sparky knows water + electricity is no bueno, and GFCIs are designed specifically for that scenario.

 

[GoodShit97]

I just got home from 17 hours on the road. I'll try to get to this here in a bit but if not, first thing in the morning. @tobh

My bad i forgot you were on the road all day today.

 

[GrumpAzz]

1. Do you only need on, ideally at the beginning of a circuit where there are multiple loads?
2. Would having every outlet be a GFCI be excessive?
3. How much benefit is to be gained by having GFCI vs tamper resistant duplex outlets?
4. Are grounds really necessary for GFCIs to work as intended (eg, shock a mofo but don't kill em).

The baby got a second wind when I got home (warms my heart) and I finally got her put to bed. I hope I can put this in a way that's easily understood.

1. Technically yes. You only need one. Land your incoming feed on the line side and the outgoing feed on the load side. However, factoring in the resistance of the wire, I would suggest no more than six receptacles downstream on 12 gauge wire, less on 14 (14 gauge shouldn't be used for branch circuits but some electricians are cheapskates). Any more than that and you'll run into nuisance tripping, or tripping caused by a load that wouldn't normally trip a GFCI.

2. Again, technically, yes. However, should you be running multiple loads on the same circuit, any downstream "fault" will kill ALL receptacles protected by the GFCI. I, personally, would use a GFCI in all locations. This isn't just an upsell from your electrician. Nuisance tripping is just that... A nuisance.

3. This is comparing apples to oranges. While both delicious, they don't have the same uses. Tamper proof recepts can come in all sorts of flavors. They simply make it impossible to plug something like a paperclip into the hot side of the recept without also inserting another paperclip into the neutral side. It just makes it much more difficult for your kid to fart around and get shocked. It also makes it sort of a pain to plug things in and more difficult to insert probes from a multimeter. I hate them.

4. A grounding conductor is NOT necessary for a GFCI to function. They measure the difference between the hot and neutral conductors and trip when it senses an imbalance of at least 5 milliamps between the two. They function properly on 2 wire systems.

Note: GFCIs should be avoided for large unbalanced loads such as motors or fluorescent lights. This is debatable, but something like a large compressor on a fridge, water chiller or air conditioner will often trip the GFCI when the compressor kicks on. There's a large inrush of current which the GFCI will usually interpret as a fault. With fluorescent lighting, it has to do with the capacitors in the ballast storing energy. This brings us back to nuisance tripping.

I'm sleepy
Night ya'll

 

[tobh]

The baby got a second wind when I got home (warms my heart) and I finally got her put to bed. I hope I can put this in a way that's easily understood.

1. Technically yes. You only need one. Land your incoming feed on the line side and the outgoing feed on the load side. However, factoring in the resistance of the wire, I would suggest no more than six receptacles downstream on 12 gauge wire, less on 14 (14 gauge shouldn't be used for branch circuits but some electricians are cheapskates). Any more than that and you'll run into nuisance tripping, or tripping caused by a load that wouldn't normally trip a GFCI.

2. Again, technically, yes. However, should you be running multiple loads on the same circuit, any downstream "fault" will kill ALL receptacles protected by the GFCI. I, personally, would use a GFCI in all locations. This isn't just an upsell from your electrician. Nuisance tripping is just that... A nuisance.

3. This is comparing apples to oranges. While both delicious, they don't have the same uses. Tamper proof recepts can come in all sorts of flavors. They simply make it impossible to plug something like a paperclip into the hot side of the recept without also inserting another paperclip into the neutral side. It just makes it much more difficult for your kid to fart around and get shocked. It also makes it sort of a pain to plug things in and more difficult to insert probes from a multimeter. I hate them.

4. A grounding conductor is NOT necessary for a GFCI to function. They measure the difference between the hot and neutral conductors and trip when it senses an imbalance of at least 5 milliamps between the two. They function properly on 2 wire systems.

Note: GFCIs should be avoided for large unbalanced loads such as motors or fluorescent lights. This is debatable, but something like a large compressor on a fridge, water chiller or air conditioner will often trip the GFCI when the compressor kicks on. There's a large inrush of current which the GFCI will usually interpret as a fault. With fluorescent lighting, it has to do with the capacitors in the ballast storing energy. This brings us back to nuisance tripping.

I'm sleepy
Night ya'll

great win with the baby!

also, this is perfect. great detail and simple explanation. everything you said aligns with the research I've been doing, and now we have it documented here for future builders wondering if they should get that $1.50 duplex outlet with 12/2 wire or go for the $3 GFCI duplex with 14/3 wire.

TL;DR: build a room, eat the cost for GFCI outlets, use good (expensive) wire, and don't get hemmed up by burning your apartment complex down.

 

[GrumpAzz]

great win with the baby!

also, this is perfect. great detail and simple explanation. everything you said aligns with the research I've been doing, and now we have it documented here for future builders wondering if they should get that $1.50 duplex outlet with 12/2 wire or go for the $3 GFCI duplex with 14/3 wire.

TL;DR: build a room, eat the cost for GFCI outlets, use good (expensive) wire, and don't get hemmed up by burning your apartment complex down.

14 gauge is fine if you dedicate the GFCIs and land it on a 15 amp breaker and 15 amp receptacle. That would be totally fine, especially for a small grow room where you probably won't plug in a 20 amp piece of equipment. Easy way to tell the difference between a 15 and 20 amp cord is the prong that plugs into the left side of the outlet. 15 amp receptacles will have two vertical slots while the left slot on a 20 amp receptacle will have the horizontal notch. 20 amp male plugs have one vertical prong and one horizontal.

The main issue with 14 gauge wire is that a lot of times, cheap electricians will land the circuit on a 20 amp breaker which is against code. With enough circuits, 15 amp breakers are fine. It's just a poor practice to wire someone's house on 15s because we, as homeowners, are known for plugging a ton of crap into one circuit. Planned out correctly, running 14 you'll end up with more breakers which eventually negates the cheaper cost of 14 wire. 12 gauge and 20 amp breakers covers most of what we use in a home.

 

[Cool_Beans]

The baby got a second wind when I got home (warms my heart) and I finally got her put to bed. I hope I can put this in a way that's easily understood.

1. Technically yes. You only need one. Land your incoming feed on the line side and the outgoing feed on the load side. However, factoring in the resistance of the wire, I would suggest no more than six receptacles downstream on 12 gauge wire, less on 14 (14 gauge shouldn't be used for branch circuits but some electricians are cheapskates). Any more than that and you'll run into nuisance tripping, or tripping caused by a load that wouldn't normally trip a GFCI.

2. Again, technically, yes. However, should you be running multiple loads on the same circuit, any downstream "fault" will kill ALL receptacles protected by the GFCI. I, personally, would use a GFCI in all locations. This isn't just an upsell from your electrician. Nuisance tripping is just that... A nuisance.

3. This is comparing apples to oranges. While both delicious, they don't have the same uses. Tamper proof recepts can come in all sorts of flavors. They simply make it impossible to plug something like a paperclip into the hot side of the recept without also inserting another paperclip into the neutral side. It just makes it much more difficult for your kid to fart around and get shocked. It also makes it sort of a pain to plug things in and more difficult to insert probes from a multimeter. I hate them.

4. A grounding conductor is NOT necessary for a GFCI to function. They measure the difference between the hot and neutral conductors and trip when it senses an imbalance of at least 5 milliamps between the two. They function properly on 2 wire systems.

Note: GFCIs should be avoided for large unbalanced loads such as motors or fluorescent lights. This is debatable, but something like a large compressor on a fridge, water chiller or air conditioner will often trip the GFCI when the compressor kicks on. There's a large inrush of current which the GFCI will usually interpret as a fault. With fluorescent lighting, it has to do with the capacitors in the ballast storing energy. This brings us back to nuisance tripping.

I'm sleepy
Night ya'll

Who ever wired my garage ran the fluorescent lights off the garage gfci. Im going to replace the fixtures w led pancakes. They trip the gfci randomly in the winter which is super handy since the overhead door motors are on the same circuit.

 

[Zen_seeker]

is it kosher to splice wire into an existing line to extend the run?

for context, I want to move a light switch from a really dumb spot to a spot that makes sense closer to a door on another wall. I can safely assume that the line and load wires aren't going to reach the new location.

That’s fine as long as you do it right. Not adding anything just extending.

 

[Zen_seeker]

Might do the latter given what I'm dealing with here. Plan on putting in a GFCI here anyways since this outlet sits right next to a sink.
View attachment 18665

Up here all bathroom and kitchen counter plugs are GFIs.

 

[GrumpAzz]

Who ever wired my garage ran the fluorescent lights off the garage gfci. Im going to replace the fixtures w led pancakes. They trip the gfci randomly in the winter which is super handy since the overhead door motors are on the same circuit.

Oh yeah that's lame. Is the GFCI in the ceiling too? Added lameness

 

[Pipecarver]

Not an easy book to interpret

There used to be a simplified version you could get that mainly covered 200 amp services and under. Good for the home owner and worded to understand.

 

[Pipecarver]

great win with the baby!

also, this is perfect. great detail and simple explanation. everything you said aligns with the research I've been doing, and now we have it documented here for future builders wondering if they should get that $1.50 duplex outlet with 12/2 wire or go for the $3 GFCI duplex with 14/3 wire.

TL;DR: build a room, eat the cost for GFCI outlets, use good (expensive) wire, and don't get hemmed up by burning your apartment complex down.

You gotta watch using the larger #12 on 15amp receptacles....Thet don't fit the quick wire and they're too big to wrap around the screw properly, They are stiffer wires and there's less room in your junction boxes when you splice them. I never wired homes with #12 unless there was a specific need for 20 amp circuits....heating/ air conditioning, garage welders ect......I've been away some 20+ years now things may have changed.....I'm up North too we got some different rules on stuff