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tobh's troll cave

I'd honestly consider just tossing a 150w Halogen floodlight in there. Maybe not pointed at the plants, but at the bottom of the tent near the air intake. Would give you decent reflected light and likely bump the temps up just enough for cheap.
Have to be careful not to overheat the root zone though. But if you point it right at the incoming air, could be just the ticket.
 
What if you hung a small umbrella light in there? The bulb would be vertical and eliminate the hotspot issue. You could supplement with LED's if you got a small enough umbrella.
 
Rootsruler said:
What if you hung a small umbrella light in there? The bulb would be vertical and eliminate the hotspot issue. You could supplement with LED's if you got a small enough umbrella.
Click to expand...
primary concern is still height. I haven't measured, but the QBs are currently about 28" above canopy if I had to guess. These plants are leggy, too, so gotta be very cognizant of the height for obvious reasons.

Dirtbag said:
I'd honestly consider just tossing a 150w Halogen floodlight in there. Maybe not pointed at the plants, but at the bottom of the tent near the air intake. Would give you decent reflected light and likely bump the temps up just enough for cheap.
Have to be careful not to overheat the root zone though. But if you point it right at the incoming air, could be just the ticket.
Click to expand...
i might give that a go. In fact, part of my problem is possible the air intake being forced via a second ACI T6 that runs at the same speed as the exhaust fan (both on the same controller). So, not only is the cold air coming in from 4" above the concrete floor, it's being pulled in at roughly the same rate as the exhaust is being pushed out so the tent runs only about 3F above ambient with the LEDs running at 85%.
 
Dirtbag said:
Honestly, a 400w HPS won't come close to the performance of a 700w LED.
Click to expand...
so, i'm running six QB boards that total 720W, each running 240W at 100%. I don't hit 100% ever because, well, no CO2 and that's a fuckton of PPFD (brighter than sunlight on a clear day). the lighting performs great, but doesn't offer enough heat in this new space. Definitely see a lot of value from replacing one set of QBs with a HID, at least for winter months.
 
tobh said:
so, i'm running six QB boards that total 720W, each running 240W at 100%. I don't hit 100% ever because, well, no CO2 and that's a fuckton of PPFD (brighter than sunlight on a clear day). the lighting performs great, but doesn't offer enough heat in this new space. Definitely see a lot of value from replacing one set of QBs with a HID, at least for winter months.
Click to expand...
Ahhh, well then yeah, a 400 in a batwing with a couple QB's for supplemental. Maybe even set one up for underlighting.
 
now you got the gears turning.

swap out the center set of QBs with a 400w HPS, and could likely dial back the other two sets of QBs to 40-50% and still push enough PPFD while getting the heat up a bit. might try the halogen thing first but it makes me nervous as there's not a lot of room under the platform which is built with wood and plastic -- flammable shit.
 
Rootsruler said:
What if you turn off your intake and allow more heat to stay in the tent for longer? It may not take it where you want it but it may warm it up a bit without having to do anything other than turn a fan off.
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i was thinking about that too. the primary reason for the intake is to prevent sucked-in sides on the tent. to keep humidity in check the fans run at 70%, but if i can work out a reasonable way to keep the sides from going tweeker-cheek style, turning down the intake fan would be great to free up a little amperage on the circuit.
 
Dirtbag said:
Or put a fan speed controller on it.
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it's on a speed controller, runs on the same controller the exhaust fan does. can't run different speeds, though, and my dumbass threw the second T6 controller away because my previous smart thoughts were "i'll run em together, will never need a separate controller!" fuckin stupid past tobh. he was probably shitfaced when he did that too.
 
tobh said:
i was thinking about that too. the primary reason for the intake is to prevent sucked-in sides on the tent. to keep humidity in check the fans run at 70%, but if i can work out a reasonable way to keep the sides from going tweeker-cheek style, turning down the intake fan would be great to free up a little amperage on the circuit.
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Bro? What size exhaust fan you have and how hard are you running it?

Sounds like you need to open the bottom flaps to get more intake CFM so that you don't collapse the walls.
 
Rootsruler said:
Bro? What size exhaust fan you have and how hard are you running it?

Sounds like you need to open the bottom flaps to get more intake CFM so that you don't collapse the walls.
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ACI T6 on both intake and exhaust. rated for 420CFM.

i don't open the vents because i don't like light being visible outside the tent. it's an opsec thing, especially given one neighbor basically has line of site through a window into my garage from their front yard, and the sheriff lives with direct line of sight to the garage door windows (albeit frosted now) from his shop, where he parks his patrol unit.

that's where the intake fan comes into play. it keeps things balanced so the walls don't collapse and offers the side benefit of making some air movement under the canopy.
 
Didn't realize you had a fan on the intake too.
Doesn't have to move a lot of air for a tent, a single exhaust dialed way down is all I used in my tent with no "tweaker cheeks" 😆
Maybe just rig up a light trap for the intake?
 
After i find some curtains i like for the garage, and I get some privacy hedges planted on the property line the opsec issues won't be issues anymore. for now i'm still gotta operate full gorilla though.
 
tobh said:
ACI T6 on both intake and exhaust. rated for 420CFM.

i don't open the vents because i don't like light being visible outside the tent. it's an opsec thing, especially given one neighbor basically has line of site through a window into my garage from their front yard, and the sheriff lives with direct line of sight to the garage door windows (albeit frosted now) from his shop, where he parks his patrol unit.

that's where the intake fan comes into play. it keeps things balanced so the walls don't collapse and offers the side benefit of making some air movement under the canopy.
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Gotcha!! (y)

Then a speed controller set a lower speed to keep the walls from sucking in...

 
tobh said:
After i find some curtains i like for the garage, and I get some privacy hedges planted on the property line the opsec issues won't be issues anymore. for now i'm still gotta operate full gorilla though.
Click to expand...
Limo tint the windows????
 
Dirtbag said:
Didn't realize you had a fan on the intake too.
Doesn't have to move a lot of air for a tent, a single exhaust dialed way down is all I used in my tent with no "tweaker cheeks" 😆
Maybe just rig up a light trap for the intake?
Click to expand...
tried that before, 420 CFM is pretty hardcore for a 4x4. if it weren't for the humidity i'm battling i would turn the fans down. with the garage at a steady 30%RH the tent still sits mid to high 60% almost consistently. that's even with the dehuey exhaust pointed right at the intake inlet. can't wait for the second defoliation, i'll be able to manage RH better again.

all these microclimate issues are the whole reason for the plans to build a dedicated space for this crap. not only is a PITA getting dialed in a new place, but when you're dealing with 16sqft of surface area, the swings in heat and RH are crazy difficult to get right. Doesn't help the garage is close to 350sqft if i had to guess, so for a dinky little space heater and 70 pint dehuey, it's a lot of space to heat while battling leaks through 1/2"-1" gaps around the garage doors.
 
Rootsruler said:
Limo tint the windows????
Click to expand...
lol nah. that was actually something listed in the police report re: previous owner's grow op.

"all windows were observed to be blacked out, preventing visibility to what activities may be happening inside the house." or something along those lines. lemme pull up the police report and I'll screenshot the exact verbiage lol
 
i thought it was interesting they felt need to mention that. as if covering or "blacking out" windows in your private residence is impeding on some legal jurisdiction to observe everything that happens in a home. pretty sure the law agrees with implied privacy within private property structures, and however a resident chooses to treat their windows to increase privacy should be inconsequential, regardless of any activities happening inside, legal or not.

wonder what their argument would be if i opened the dining room blinds and helicoptered my cock for the world to see? they'd probably have something to say about that in the reverse.. just saying.
 
tobh said:
tried that before, 420 CFM is pretty hardcore for a 4x4. if it weren't for the humidity i'm battling i would turn the fans down. with the garage at a steady 30%RH the tent still sits mid to high 60% almost consistently. that's even with the dehuey exhaust pointed right at the intake inlet. can't wait for the second defoliation, i'll be able to manage RH better again.

all these microclimate issues are the whole reason for the plans to build a dedicated space for this crap. not only is a PITA getting dialed in a new place, but when you're dealing with 16sqft of surface area, the swings in heat and RH are crazy difficult to get right. Doesn't help the garage is close to 350sqft if i had to guess, so for a dinky little space heater and 70 pint dehuey, it's a lot of space to heat while battling leaks through 1/2"-1" gaps around the garage doors.
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Right. Forgot about the RH issues.
And agree fully, that's why I built my shed with full control, heater, dehu, AC etc. Set it and forget it kinda shit makes grow life a lot easier.
 
tobh said:
lol nah. that was actually something listed in the police report re: previous owner's grow op.

"all windows were observed to be blacked out, preventing visibility to what activities may be happening inside the house." or something along those lines. lemme pull up the police report and I'll screenshot the exact verbiage lol
Click to expand...
When i grew in a condo unit years ago I built boxed in false walls behind the windows and had a little nightlight on a timer come on between the wall and the window in the evenings, just behind the drapes so it just looks like a normal room from outside.
 
Screenshot_2023-10-30_17-24-14.png
i blacked out names and additional info. this part here is the one major thing that bothers me most about the report. the rest is pretty standard from what you'd expect a commercial scale illegal grow op investigation to entail, but making it harder to observe what's happening inside a private residence is apparently a red flag?

they can fuck right off with that. either that, or ask anyone that knows me IRL. I'm not afraid to show a motherfucker my hairy brown eye without tucking my balls. if you want a show, you'll get more than you bargained for lol
 
Dirtbag said:
When i grew in a condo unit years ago I built boxed in false walls behind the windows and had a little nightlight on a timer come on between the wall and the window in the evenings, just behind the drapes so it just looks like a normal room from outside.
Click to expand...
never thought about doing a light like that. i've done plenty of shadow boxes around windows in my time. always bugged me, though, because if a window is constantly dark, that's an odd thing. even storage rooms get accessed enough to show some kind of activity.
 
tobh said:
So, I have runoff during the maintenance events primarily because I don't have the monitors to deal with water content and EC tracking in the media. If my math is right for each event's volume of solution to volume of media, then there should be minimal runoff, but runoff nonetheless.

Ideally one would be able to have events happen dozens to hundreds of times throughout the day automatically. This would enable much more accurate control over water content and EC in the media, which in turn yields the biggest benefits for using this method. In the primitive style I use it's more of a shooting in the dark and hoping I don't fuck up kind of ordeal. Last run was great, this run is shaping up a little less exciting that I had hoped but I don't have the environment dialed in nearly as well as I did last time.

Really, environment + lighting is just as important as fertigation events are in crop steering. They all play a specific role in extracting the most growth out of the plants and if any of em are out of whack, the benefits are basically nullified.
Click to expand...

Dirtbag said:
To add to what @tobh said, what I like to do for say 8 waterings a day, is set the timing so that my first 2 or 3 waterings in the day have no runoff, then a little runoff for watering #3 or #4, and decent runoff for the remainder of the waterings. Without something like a grosens controller it's too risky to go with no runoff. Those last few should rinse out any excess salts. I even like to make the last one twice as long to really rinse them out. But that can be wasteful if you aren't reusing the solution like I was.
Click to expand...

Thanks guys

Understand about the lack of tech, pisses me off that no one is making anything for the small scale at a reasonable cost.

I'm currently at 10 events per lights on and it became evidently clear that runoff from maintenance events is going to be needed after just one day. Runoff to target ec was 3.1 from 2.4 yesterday by not getting any runoff except for some drips throughout the last 6 maintenance events. Pots were max full just no runoff.

I'll get this EC reset and get the runoff in order.

This may be my last run with Coco for a while, I have been doing a homemade soil recipe with Dr. Earth and some adds. It's been working excellent the last while. Stuck on a fencepost on direction atm.
 
sportyridr said:
Thanks guys

Understand about the lack of tech, pisses me off that no one is making anything for the small scale at a reasonable cost.

I'm currently at 10 events per lights on and it became evidently clear that runoff from maintenance events is going to be needed after just one day. Runoff to target ec was 3.1 from 2.4 yesterday by not getting any runoff except for some drips throughout the last 6 maintenance events. Pots were max full just no runoff.

I'll get this EC reset and get the runoff in order.

This may be my last run with Coco for a while, I have been doing a homemade soil recipe with Dr. Earth and some adds. It's been working excellent the last while. Stuck on a fencepost on direction atm.
Click to expand...
I'm doing 80ml (4% sub volume) 0.50 half gallon

My coco is gone kinda lo, it's just roots.

I don't have substrate e.c to measure really, just the water run off ?

If I start dry I have to give them that like every 30minutes -2hours by hand

What size are your pots?
 
sportyridr said:
Thanks guys

Understand about the lack of tech, pisses me off that no one is making anything for the small scale at a reasonable cost.

I'm currently at 10 events per lights on and it became evidently clear that runoff from maintenance events is going to be needed after just one day. Runoff to target ec was 3.1 from 2.4 yesterday by not getting any runoff except for some drips throughout the last 6 maintenance events. Pots were max full just no runoff.

I'll get this EC reset and get the runoff in order.

This may be my last run with Coco for a while, I have been doing a homemade soil recipe with Dr. Earth and some adds. It's been working excellent the last while. Stuck on a fencepost on direction atm.
Click to expand...
there are affordable options for small scale, but they require some pretty heavy technical abilities to put together. you'll still end up needing a base budget of roughly $1,000 to build everything, too, because the sensors specifically for water content and EC are crazy expensive unless you buy in bulk (eg, 10,000+ units/order).

i've followed a few DIY projects leveraging the sensors, arduino chips, and raspberry pi's. pretty cool stuff, not terribly hard to build, but the sensors man.. at the prices they are for singles it's just not a sound financial decision to go into them unless you really just like hardware hacking and want to build something very few others have.

imo, if you like some properties of coco but want easier/cleaner processes, rockwool is where it's at.

you don't need to go down the rabbit hole of crop steering and whatnot, either. the primary reason i've fallen in this hole is because i love the technical details i've learned since embarking on the journey and it really is a more economical way of running soilless and hydro systems. reducing runoff to the bare minimum means no wasted water or nutrient solution, which translates to pennies kept in the pocket. at scale, it translates to tens of thousands of dollars in savings over a year.

plus, this knowledge will translate well once i get the first greenhouse built for the farm. i'll be running tomatoes and cucumbers primarily, and rockwool slabs are cheap af and easier to deal with than perlite or rock in dutch buckets. they also require very similar parameters to cannabis, so fucking up some plants now will save a lot of pain and money once i get the food production business going.
 
Observer said:
I'm doing 80ml (4% sub volume) 0.50 half gallon

My coco is gone kinda lo, it's just roots.

I don't have substrate e.c to measure really, just the water run off ?

If I start dry I have to give them that like every 30minutes -2hours by hand

What size are your pots?
Click to expand...
that sounds about right. That should be around 3% media volume, which is target for each event (depending on # of events in a light cycle).

my target injections are 150ml, but I'm a little over at just shy of 200ml simply because I rather have runoff hit a little sooner than desired, and flush extra salts, than have a massive EC spike destroy roots. Plus, getting media that's dried too much back to a happy place is a PITA and requires at least one reservoir, if not two, to get things copacetic again. I don't like mixing reservoirs more than I have to lol
 
tobh said:
that sounds about right. That should be around 3% media volume, which is target for each event (depending on # of events in a light cycle).
Click to expand...
i gotcha, i was going off of this table here, idk how accurate or what this is based off.
1698714506195.png
(but i dont like odd numbers so i make it 1-4% in my mind) for vegetative steering

but of course, i dont know what the fk im doing with this crop steering thing lol, cool to learn it, or attempt.
tobh said:
my target injections are 150ml, but I'm a little over at just shy of 200ml simply because I rather have runoff hit a little sooner than desired, and flush extra salts, than have a massive EC spike destroy roots. Plus, getting media that's dried too much back to a happy place is a PITA and requires at least one reservoir, if not two, to get things copacetic again. I don't like mixing reservoirs more than I have to lol
Click to expand...
i checked my run off ec once, said oh fuck and didnt look again lol, but the plants look 95% healthy IMO (atleast/w.e) im kinda hung over
 
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Observer said:
i gotcha, i was going off of this table here, idk how accurate or what this is based off.
View attachment 27722
(but i dont like odd numbers so i make it 1-4% in my mind) for vegetative steering

but of course, i dont know what the fk im doing with this crop steering thing lol, cool to learn it, or attempt.

i checked my run off ec once, said oh fuck and didnt look again lol
Click to expand...
that chart is accurate based off all my research, too. really without the fancy controllers we're just faking it anyways.

runoff EC is much more reliable in rockwool than coco, but you should still keep an eye on it. fuck the pH, that's completely worthless without a direct sample from the media (a slurry test in coco). but, the EC number should be within a few points of input EC or there is too much build up from not keeping the WC in line with the phase of fertigation. max variation from input should not exceed .6 imo. Anything more indicates your not keeping your WC high enough and there's too much pressure on the roots risking lockouts, root damage, or straight up negatively impactful drought conditions.

EDIT: the above is assuming higher EC inputs. If under 2.0 EC it's not really so significant IMO, and below 1.0 EC, the above is irrelevant. Better to consider a percentage vs hard number. 50% greater runoff EC # is probably a better cutoff/benchmark.

Remember, the event timing and drybacks are explicitly to control the WC. introducing drought stress at the right times by decreasing the WC, which causes a spike in EC, or vis a vis. For instance, right now I'm running generative schedule, input is 1.2 EC and runoff (when i check) is about 1.6 on average. If it climbs higher than that, I flush with a fresh res at 1.2. When I revert to the vegetative cycle this weekend, I'll expect run off EC to be somewhere around input EC, +/- .2. Anything higher and I'll flush and evaluate my event timing again.

For sake of simplicity I'm following the exact shit I did last run in the thread at the old place.
 
i could do 3%

why would one want the high end or low end for say generative 4-8%

and sorry, i "was doing" veg steering during transition, and now im aiming for generative 4-8%? for the next couple of weeks
 
tobh said:
that chart is accurate based off all my research, too. really without the fancy controllers we're just faking it anyways.

runoff EC is much more reliable in rockwool than coco, but you should still keep an eye on it. fuck the pH, that's completely worthless without a direct sample from the media (a slurry test in coco). but, the EC number should be within a few points of input EC or there is too much build up from not keeping the WC in line with the phase of fertigation. max variation from input should not exceed .6 imo. Anything more indicates your not keeping your WC high enough and there's too much pressure on the roots risking lockouts, root damage, or straight up negatively impactful drought conditions.
Click to expand...
oh, ok. ty

would they build up on the roots?, like its just a roll of roots lol, the coco sub is "gone"

ill check over em lol
tobh said:
Remember, the event timing and drybacks are explicitly to control the WC. introducing drought stress at the right times by decreasing the WC, which causes a spike in EC, or vis a vis. For instance, right now I'm running generative schedule, input is 1.2 EC and runoff (when i check) is about 1.6 on average. If it climbs higher than that, I flush with a fresh res at 1.2. When I revert to the vegetative cycle this weekend, I'll expect run off EC to be somewhere around input EC, +/- .2. Anything higher and I'll flush and evaluate my event timing again.

For sake of simplicity I'm following the exact shit I did last run in the thread at the old place.
Click to expand...


ill start checking my e,c again mainly didnt cause of the oh fuck , it was like 3.5 or 4 , maybe high, maybe not, idk, and as i was flushing/switching e/c/nutrients and resetting the substrate, been awhile now, so probably good time to check it
 
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tobh said:
that chart is accurate based off all my research, too. really without the fancy controllers we're just faking it anyways.

runoff EC is much more reliable in rockwool than coco, but you should still keep an eye on it. fuck the pH, that's completely worthless without a direct sample from the media (a slurry test in coco). but, the EC number should be within a few points of input EC or there is too much build up from not keeping the WC in line with the phase of fertigation. max variation from input should not exceed .6 imo. Anything more indicates your not keeping your WC high enough and there's too much pressure on the roots risking lockouts, root damage, or straight up negatively impactful drought conditions.

EDIT: the above is assuming higher EC inputs. If under 2.0 EC it's not really so significant IMO, and below 1.0 EC, the above is irrelevant. Better to consider a percentage vs hard number. 50% greater runoff EC # is probably a better cutoff/benchmark.
Click to expand...

tobh said:
Remember, the event timing and drybacks are explicitly to control the WC. introducing drought stress at the right times by decreasing the WC, which causes a spike in EC, or vis a vis. For instance, right now I'm running generative schedule, input is 1.2 EC and runoff (when i check) is about 1.6 on average. If it climbs higher than that, I flush with a fresh res at 1.2. When I revert to the vegetative cycle this weekend, I'll expect run off EC to be somewhere around input EC, +/- .2. Anything higher and I'll flush and evaluate my event timing again.
Click to expand...
ok my current input is 1.4 ill check the output tonight, guess i better that dialed in then huh
tobh said:
For sake of simplicity I'm following the exact shit I did last run in the thread at the old place.
Click to expand...
 
i think they are DRY af right now lol

which means my E.C is raising?
 
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Observer said:
i could do 3%

why would one want the high end or low end for say generative 4-8%

and sorry, i "was doing" veg steering during transition, and now im aiming for generative 4-8%? for the next couple of weeks
Click to expand...
Generative is the lower volume stage, influencing stronger dry back. The plant response is to hurry up and flower vs vegetative that is the higher volume stage.

You run generative the first 21 days of flower to encourage bud set. Push those bitches to set flowers and reduce leaf production. Then, day 21 - to week 7ish, you go vegetative. Make sure they have plenty to drink and no stress. weeks 7-9 or 8-10, you go back to generative. at that same time you run your second round of PK boost. this forces the plants to finish up because they think, fuck, it's getting cold, rains are going away, the bell is tolling. Then, you revert back to vegetative again at much lower input EC and run to the finish line. Really, after week 10, it doesn't matter (in most modern cultivars). They're done drinking anyways so you could just drop to three or four events a day and keep the WC well above 80% with minimal runoff and no complications.
 
Observer said:
i think they are DRY af right now lol
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two fixes for that. one is more events, or more volume per event.

depending on your runoff EC i would recommend a solid flush with 1/4 strength nutrient solution and then a flush with full strength. reset that media before things start going sideways. that first flush should be ran until your runoff EC matches input, then reset it with full strength solution.

despite popular opinion you can push stupid high EC in coco, too. in college i ran 2.2 - 2.5 EC regularly with no consequences. you just gotta be on top of keeping that media wet. a single severe dryback is the difference between a great harvest or dead plants.
 
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