Quick question

[GrumpAzz]

Hey guys. I've got a quick nutrient question before I start a journal. I'm using the GH Flora trio and I also have several of their additives on deck. Using their light feeding chart, I added 50mL of Micro, bloom and grow, in that order. I also added 30mL of RapidStart. I mixed this into my 30 gal top-off res, then pH adjusted down to 5.8 or so. After this, I pumped ~15 gallons down into the RDWC system. There may have been some 8 pH RO water left in the plant res, which raised the pH up to 6.9. I've added a squirt or two of pH down every 12-24 hours since, and the pH continues to drift upward. No plant in the system yet and the top-off res has stayed put at 5.8. What's causing this drift upward?

Forgot to mention, after pumping into the RDWC, I added 30mL of Hygrozyme and Southern Ag's.

The feed chart suggested starting Cal-mag in the second week, so I didn't add any of that or any Armor-si. If these two won't bother my seedling, I have no issue adding them now. Looking forward, I'll need a full res change to add them both, since they need to be added to the mixture first. Is that correct?

Right now, I'm just messing with nutes and watching pH while my seed germinates. I will have no issue with starting my mix over, if that's necessary.

Ppms at a stable 260.

 

[moe.red]

I’m sorry I don’t have a mental grasp on your setup but I’ll do my best.

First the most common cause of ph shifting in a system without any inputs or contaminants if offgassing co2. The water from municipal sources is under pressure in the pipes and contains co2 higher than atmospheric. The effect is acidification (carbonic acid) which is released once out of the pipe and at normal pressure.

8 ph RO water will not be a factor. Not unless there was something else in the water. RO water has been stripped of its ability to buffer and will not resist ph change at all. It will acquire the CBN ph of what it is added to.

I suspect there was something else in that ware in the plant sites accounting for tfe 8 ph and it is buffering the water. Things like silica will do this. I have seen contaminated air stones do this. Maybe sludge in the pipes. Dunno I’d like a look at your system before I elaborate further.

All nutes including armor and cal mag have some buffering capacity. I’d hold off adding anything else until you get this understood it will just add new variables. I don’t see the need to start over yet either.

 

[GrumpAzz]

This is inside the tent. I ran pure RO in the system for a week or so and then drained it all and started with a fresh resevoir to mix nutes. I think when I drained the system, the remaining water below where the return pipe enters the resevoir is what I'm talking about. There's an inch and a half below that pipe and the bottom of the res, which might hold a gallon or two. I think a combination of that 8.0 water and the Hygro/SA that was added contributed to my ph rise. Maybe I'm underestimating the circulation times and amount of pH down needed. I've only added a mL at a time so maybe I'm needing more?

I'm sorry if that doesn't make sense. I'm at work now so my brain has ran a few different directions this morning. I'll get as much info and pictures to you as soon as I'm back home. Thanks for the speedy reply.

 

[moe.red]

OK dude, we will get this figured out in time. What you said makes perfect sense.

I am not aware of hygrozyme causing a PH change, but I'll do some research there.

Bennies can, if they are put into an environment with favorable conditions (i.e. food, O2, temp) their byproducts of aerobic activity can cause a PH shift. That doesn't make a lot of sense to me here tho because there should not have been much if any food for them in RO water.

Is there any spot in your system that could allow something to leach in? Like pipe dope? Any spot where you might have some old root hairs trapped in a pipe that could be decaying? Really what I am asking is there any foreign contaminants possible? Is that black pipe just painted PVC?

Hey I'm sure you know this but that BlueLab PH probe should be kept wet in a KCL solution to keep it accurate.

Here is the expensive stuff:

https://www.amazon.com/Bluelab-STSOL100-Probe-Soil-Tester/dp/B00CJIDH7Y?source=ps-sl-shoppingads-lpcontext&ref_=fplfs&smid=A27K4A1IJ6225M&th=1

or you can make a lifetime supply with about $5 worth of KCL lol

 

[GrumpAzz]

No food in the system for the bennies, all brand new. That black pipe is just regular pvc that I put gorilla tape on (kept tripping over the white pipes). It's the supply line for the jets in the plant res.

I'm under the impression, now, that it's strictly the leftover water in the bottom of the plant res bringing my pH back up. The top-off res (where I mixed the solution, minus bennies) has stayed pretty constant at 5.8. I added the bennies to the lower res afterward (got impatiant waiting for an answer at the farm). I wasn't sure if they needed the plant to thrive or if they could wait a week or so for some roots. They may not have changed the pH at all, considering the leftover water debacle.

I'll keep slowly adding pH Down to the mix. I can see why it seems to drop it at first, considering I'm adding it to the res that contains the pH probe. It would show an initial drop, then come back up some once it's fully circulated. I'm just overly cautious on adding too much. I've got some time before my seed pops so a mL or so a day should bring me back down in time. Just don't wanna overdo it only to add pH up to correct it. Trying to avoid that. I shouldv'e just vacuumed out the last bit of RO before I started, but alas, excitement got the best of me. I've been working towards this for a couple months now.

I recently hydrated and calibrated both my probe and pen. I read in the manual to add some kCl to the cap every week to keep it hydrated, so I haven't added more than the initial couple drops. I bought a small BlueLab branded solution but when I need more, I'll gladly make a lifetime supply for 5 bucks.

You're great, man. I'm so thankful to be included in this forum.

 

[moe.red]

I think you are doing the right thing.

When do you normally add the armor SI?

In a perfect world, when I start up a system, I put the silica (armor) in first and run all the pumps and stones for a while. PH will probably go to higher than 9. Thats what you want.

Then after it is stirred real good, start adding PH down (watered down to prevent precipitation) and bring the PH down to the 5.5 range. Overnight it will drift back up as more silica adds to the buffer. Adjust it to 5.8 then start adding nutes, including the cal mag. This will also add to the buffer.

If you can let that run another day before you put plants in, that would be best. I'm not sure about Armor SI, but the pure potassium silicate I use does not all become activated at once, and it takes a little time to achieve the full buffering capacity, during which time PH may drift.

Now put the plants in. Bennies too.

That's the short version. If you do it this way, chances are you can go a week or more between any PH adjustments unless there is a problem. At that point, a PH swing is the canary in the coal mine that something is wrong. The speed of change and direction (up or down) is the important data to post if you run into this.

 

[GrumpAzz]

Ok. This was a great little write-up, thanks. I gotta save this post.

I haven't added any silicon or cal-mag. GH feeding chart shows it being added during the second week, so I held off.

I think I'll start again, adding the Armor-si, then cal-mag, then the nutes. I say start over because from what I've read, the Armor-si will clump up if it's not added first. It's only about 30 gallons wasted and this initial batch was me just making a trial run. I already have 50 gallons of RO on stand-by.

When you say to add the pH Down watered down, is that everytime? I've just been slowly squirting into the res 1mL at a time. And do you just squirt a few mLs into a quart or so of water, then add it? I may have botched my first batch after all.

 

[moe.red]

I have a bit more water in my system than you so can't be specific for you on measurements without some thought, but I add the silica and then it usually takes about 40mL of PH down to balance out at 5.8.

That 40mL will get put into a good amount of RO water. I use a 1000mL beaker usually. Fill it up with RO water, put in the PH down, then stir and slowly add. If you add it fast at full strength you will see a cloud form where you dump it in. That is the precipitation, and those particles you are seeing are no longer in suspension so essentially wasted. They will fall to the bottom of the res somewhere until you clean them out.

If you want to see this, grab a little beaker of res water and put a few drops in. You should see a cloud form, and the following day you will probably see some white residue on the bottom of the beaker.

The 2 effectively (up and down) working against each other is what causes the balance or buffer - the system's resistance to PH change.

Once you get a feel for what your system needs, you just go for it when you first fill up, then tiny adjustments throughout the grow. It just works.

I should do a sticky on WTF is PH and Buffer and all that.

 

[GrumpAzz]

Ok sweet. I think I'm sort of understanding this. The excess of the silicon and ph down create the buffer by essentially being so much of each that the little bit of nutes won't affect it much. That sound about right in laymens terms.

I'm going straight from a cd case to my hydroton. Do you see any problems there? In your opinion, will the Armor-si and Cal-mag have an adverse effect on the youngling? I'm not sure how you start yours but you mentioned mixing those two into your system from the get-go. So with that, I assume the little seedling could handle some silicon and cal-mag.

I'm just an electrician that has lived the "fake it til you make it" life.

 

[moe.red]

Personally when I use hydroton I start seeds in a little rock wool cube. That gives the tiny roots some surface area to grab on to. Tiny seedlings tend to struggle in hydroton because of all the gaps. Also you do not want light hitting the roots, and sometimes it can in hydroton. Finally, you will need to make arrangements to top water multiple times a day until the roots reach the water.

Not to flip your desk over, but I quit using hydroton for these drawbacks. I have my plumbing tuned so that the splashes put a small amount of water on the bottoms of the netcups. This keeps them moist enough to both germ seeds directly and keep beneficials alive in the net pot without the need for top watering. For this, I use coco and perlite. It wicks better than hydroton.

Forgive me if I am saying shit that does not matter to you this run, but looking at it from this perspective while you go thru this grow in hydroton, it will start to make sense. You may find you make a switch next grow.

As far as this run, lemme see those babies! How big are they? With a seed (vs clone) you get a tap root so you may be able to get it in there strong enough to hold it until it grows. If not you might be able to temporarily use a neoprene insert or something like that.

 

[steamroller]

Just going to throw in when you add any of your nutes ,benes and buffers [ whatever else] measure and keep track.
Things like pH down or up will become repetitive and you can know a much closer ball park when setting up new water.

 

[GrumpAzz]

Personally when I use hydroton I start seeds in a little rock wool cube. That gives the tiny roots some surface area to grab on to. Tiny seedlings tend to struggle in hydroton because of all the gaps. Also you do not want light hitting the roots, and sometimes it can in hydroton. Finally, you will need to make arrangements to top water multiple times a day until the roots reach the water.

Not to flip your desk over, but I quit using hydroton for these drawbacks. I have my plumbing tuned so that the splashes put a small amount of water on the bottoms of the netcups. This keeps them moist enough to both germ seeds directly and keep beneficials alive in the net pot without the need for top watering. For this, I use coco and perlite. It wicks better than hydroton.

Forgive me if I am saying shit that does not matter to you this run, but looking at it from this perspective while you go thru this grow in hydroton, it will start to make sense. You may find you make a switch next grow.

As far as this run, lemme see those babies! How big are they? With a seed (vs clone) you get a tap root so you may be able to get it in there strong enough to hold it until it grows. If not you might be able to temporarily use a neoprene insert or something like that.

The seed started germinating in a cd case Friday (maybe Saturday) at 3:45 pm. That's as far as my baby has gotten. I'll open her up when I get home and see if she's popped yet.

My tent came with some little mylar patches that I could probably cover the hydroton this run. Thankfully I only bought enough and didn't spring for the bulk bag. That'll give me options for the go.

 

[TSD]

So what I'm hearing is, Hydro is way more effort than I ever want to deal with.

 

[GrumpAzz]

So what I'm hearing is, Hydro is way more effort than I ever want to deal with.

I've heard that it's the initial setup that's so difficult, otherwise it's relatively simple to keep going.

I just like the concept. I know people growing. I don't know anyone growing hydro. I like to go against the grain. I've never grown at all, so I'm in deep

 

[moe.red]

Yeah, different kind of difficult.

You know how you can just grow trees outside without thinking too hard about it? Me too with RDWC. Steep learning curve to quality cannabis no matter what your roots are in.

We do a good job of making it seem harder than it needs to be sometimes.

 

[TSD]

Yeah, different kind of difficult.

You know how you can just grow trees outside without thinking too hard about it? Me too with RDWC. Steep learning curve to quality cannabis no matter what your roots are in.

We do a good job of making it seem harder than it needs to be sometimes.

For sure, gotta play to your strengths. I imagine it's probably a little easier than soil to fix nute mess ups and such though, just drain the res and start fresh instead of playing the guessing game of where your soil went wrong then waiting weeks to see if what you did helped or made it worse lol.

 

[GrumpAzz]

I didn't get much done after getting home tonight. Filled my humidifier, but that's it. Our baby is almost a year old and has really turned into a little daddy's girl, so by the time she's in bed, I'm ready for bed.

It was Saturday that I started my seed. I'll open up the dvd case and check on her after work tomorrow. That'd be 3 days. I'll get you a rundown of my system and specific nutrient amounts added and whatnot if I can get an hour or so.

Thanks again for your patience. Once I get this nutrient debacle covered, I'll start up a journal and keep you guys as up-to-date as possible. You were all very timely with responses today and that warms my soul a little. Knowing I can have eyes on a deficiency within a couple hours is awesome and very comforting.

 

[GrumpAzz]

Thar she be!

 

[GrumpAzz]

Was gonna go to bed but seeing that gave me a little spark. I'll mix a batch of nutes and try to grab a few pictures for reference later.

 

[smoke]

So what I'm hearing is, Hydro is way more effort than I ever want to deal with.

I don't find it difficult at all, but im still learning

 

[ZombieRider]

Yeah, different kind of difficult.

You know how you can just grow trees outside without thinking too hard about it? Me too with RDWC. Steep learning curve to quality cannabis no matter what your roots are in.

We do a good job of making it seem harder than it needs to be sometimes.

Do you ever grow in coco? Why do you prefer RDWC over dtw coco?

 

[moe.red]

Do you ever grow in coco? Why do you prefer RDWC over dtw coco?

Yup I have. Started there.

RDWC in my opinion is easier to get right and control.

Now having a little soil experience I’d say after the learning curve RDWC is the easiest method. I just took a trip last week and have another this week. Came home to find the RDWC plant exploding and all the setpoints where I want them. Soil I had to mess with.

I guess what I am saying is a well designed RDWC is the closest thing to automation you are likely to find.

 

[ZombieRider]

Yup I have. Started there.

RDWC in my opinion is easier to get right and control.

Now having a little soil experience I’d say after the learning curve RDWC is the easiest method. I just took a trip last week and have another this week. Came home to find the RDWC plant exploding and all the setpoints where I want them. Soil I had to mess with.

I guess what I am saying is a well designed RDWC is the closest thing to automation you are likely to find.

Interesting take. Will for sure look into setting one up soon and seeing how it works. I guess coco is harder to control because it holds onto nutrients, whereas RDWC is just straight nutes and nothing holding it back from getting into the plant?

 

[moe.red]

Interesting take. Will for sure look into setting one up soon and seeing how it works. I guess coco is harder to control because it holds onto nutrients, whereas RDWC is just straight nutes and nothing holding it back from getting into the plant?

Sneak preview I just took this for ya.



Edit: those are clones that were the same size going in.

 

[moe.red]

Interesting take. Will for sure look into setting one up soon and seeing how it works. I guess coco is harder to control because it holds onto nutrients, whereas RDWC is just straight nutes and nothing holding it back from getting into the plant?

I guess a soil vs. hydro pic does not really answer your question tho.

The reason to use coco over soil is because it allows for a lot more O2 to the roots.

The performance gain from soil to coco is doubled again from coco to RDWC.

All of them can be mastered by a grower who digs in. I think the method you choose to grow in boils down to personality and objective. For me, I have always enjoyed pushing the boundaries just to find out where they are.

Unless this CG soil method blows me away with finished product, I'm going back to hydro.

 

[GrumpAzz]

Sneak preview I just took this for ya.

View attachment 13794

Edit: those are clones that were the same size going in.

Oh shit! I forgot this was going on!

 

[ZombieRider]

I guess a soil vs. hydro pic does not really answer your question tho.

The reason to use coco over soil is because it allows for a lot more O2 to the roots.

The performance gain from soil to coco is doubled again from coco to RDWC.

All of them can be mastered by a grower who digs in. I think the method you choose to grow in boils down to personality and objective. For me, I have always enjoyed pushing the boundaries just to find out where they are.

Unless this CG soil method blows me away with finished product, I'm going back to hydro.

Had no idea rdwc is even higher growth level than coco. It makes sense though. Do you usually run a res cooler or just run it live and let it get past 75f?
Will be interesting to see how your soil grow pans out. Both your strains (rdwc vs soil) are the same cut right?

 

[SiamSam]

I guess a soil vs. hydro pic does not really answer your question tho.

The reason to use coco over soil is because it allows for a lot more O2 to the roots.

The performance gain from soil to coco is doubled again from coco to RDWC.

All of them can be mastered by a grower who digs in. I think the method you choose to grow in boils down to personality and objective. For me, I have always enjoyed pushing the boundaries just to find out where they are.

Unless this CG soil method blows me away with finished product, I'm going back to hydro.

Big question is will you find that the soil imparts a flavor to the weed that hydro doesn't possess, or is that just another old wives tale? You'll have to have a volunteer come in, roll the joints and blindfold you....or someone impartial that you can trust...

https://starryai.com/app/user/KingDroopy

 

[moe.red]

Big question is will you find that the soil imparts a flavor to the weed that hydro doesn't possess, or is that just another old wives tale? You'll have to have a volunteer come in, roll the joints and blindfold you....or someone impartial that you can trust...

https://starryai.com/app/user/KingDroopy

The plan is to have Granny and 2 of her friends do the blindfold challenge. I think she qualifies as expert enough.

 

[moe.red]

Had no idea rdwc is even higher growth level than coco. It makes sense though. Do you usually run a res cooler or just run it live and let it get past 75f?
Will be interesting to see how your soil grow pans out. Both your strains (rdwc vs soil) are the same cut right?

Yes, I do run a chiller. Typically 72F.

Yup, cuts are both from the same mother, watermelon gelato via Anthem. I got them as rooted clones in rock wool cubes.