Cannabis and o2 in the rootzone

[Aqua Man]

I haven't had time to read about it in depth. I've mostly just scanned search results and read some of the summaries.

I'll post more info when I can.


I suspect that might depend on the method of application and the dilution. I found many recipes for mixing H2O2 with irrigation water. It's also useful for pest control. I do understand the issue with organic growing, however. I mentioned the possibility of using H2O2 for soil sterilization prior to its use, which only occurred to me as I was composing the post.

When I find more info, I promise to post more.

Been very deep down this rabbithole and the evidence you find can be very misleading until you really get into the meat of things.

 

[Amnesia]

@Aqua Man - Here's a slightly off-topic question I've had for a while...

I have a CO2 monitor in my lung room. I've been watching the CO2 levels, which is basically the atmospheric CO2 level as far as the plants are concerned. I've noticed that the CO2 level changes during the plants' day/night cycles (when the room is not ventilated). CO2 seems highest at the end of the night cycle. I assume that the plants are causing the changes. Is that a correct assumption?

 

[Amnesia]

Been very deep down this rabbithole and the evidence you find can be very misleading until you really get into the meat of things.

Oh, I totally understand that. I'm relatively new to growing weed, but I'm not new to web searches. One of the problems is sorting out which research is for plants grown in pots and which is for plants grown in gardens or farms. CO2 injection, for example, seems useful for clay soils, and that, of course, doesn't apply at all to what we're doing.

I was fascinated with what @Pipecarver did to oxygenate the growing medium. That had me wondering about creating some sort of reservoir for mixing H2O2 with H2O to release O2. It seems possible if the mechanics of separating the roots from the mixture could be devised. It's just a thought.

 

[Aqua Man]

@Aqua Man - Here's a slightly off-topic question I've had for a while...

I have a CO2 monitor in my lung room. I've been watching the CO2 levels, which is basically the atmospheric CO2 level as far as the plants are concerned. I've noticed that the CO2 level changes during the plants' day/night cycles (when the room is not ventilated). CO2 seems highest at the end of the night cycle. I assume that the plants are causing the changes. Is that a correct assumption?

Yes and here is the reason. During photosynthesis (lights on only) the plants take in co2 through the leaves. This is how they fix carbon. In the absence of light they do not. So you will see in a sealed room with no additional co2 added the co2 will drop like a rock during lights on.

Now at the same time the plant and microorganisms in the rootzone are taking in o2 and expelling co2 from plant and microbe respiration this process happens all of the time.

So what happens is the plant and microbes are producing co2 and the plant is not absorbing it during lights off… you can see how significant it is because you can see the co2 concentration over lights out rise significantly… that should give you an idea of how important gas exchange is and how much the media exchanges gasses and the plants are using…. It waaaay more than most think.

Then when the lights come on the plants will eat up that co2 like candy and with proper air exchange you should maintain close to atmospheric levels of 400ish ppm

 

[Aqua Man]

Oh, I totally understand that. I'm relatively new to growing weed, but I'm not new to web searches. One of the problems is sorting out which research is for plants grown in pots and which is for plants grown in gardens or farms. CO2 injection, for example, seems useful for clay soils, and that, of course, doesn't apply at all to what we're doing.

I was fascinated with what @Pipecarver did to oxygenate the growing medium. That had me wondering about creating some sort of reservoir for mixing H2O2 with H2O to release O2. It seems possible if the mechanics of separating the roots from the mixture could be devised. It's just a thought.

Its not the same as o2 and is highly oxidative… the devil is in the dose but it’s certainly not going to make a significant difference in terms of o2

 

[Pipecarver]

Oh, I totally understand that. I'm relatively new to growing weed, but I'm not new to web searches. One of the problems is sorting out which research is for plants grown in pots and which is for plants grown in gardens or farms. CO2 injection, for example, seems useful for clay soils, and that, of course, doesn't apply at all to what we're doing.

I was fascinated with what @Pipecarver did to oxygenate the growing medium. That had me wondering about creating some sort of reservoir for mixing H2O2 with H2O to release O2. It seems possible if the mechanics of separating the roots from the mixture could be devised. It's just a thought.

Those were in auto pots. The air domes idea comes from them, They promote them on their web site. I didn't want to pay $11 each for their domes so I used $2 net pots and air stones.

 

[Amnesia]

Yes and here is the reason. During photosynthesis (lights on only) the plants take in co2 through the leaves. This is how they fix carbon. In the absence of light they do not. So you will see in a sealed room with no additional co2 added the co2 will drop like a rock during lights on.

Now at the same time the plant and microorganisms in the rootzone are taking in o2 and expelling co2 from plant and microbe respiration this process happens all of the time.

So what happens is the plant and microbes are producing co2 and the plant is not absorbing it during lights off… you can see how significant it is because you can see the co2 concentration over lights out rise significantly… that should give you an idea of how important gas exchange is and how much the media exchanges gasses and the plants are using…. It waaaay more than most think.

Then when the lights come on the plants will eat up that co2 like candy and with proper air exchange you should maintain close to atmospheric levels of 400ish ppm

Thanks so much! That's a great explanation.

As I write this, the CO2 in the room is 905 PPM, which is in the caution zone on the meter. That's with the room ventilated. It has been enlightening to see how the CO2 level changes. The tent with the flowering plants has been in day mode for almost two hours. The tent with the vegging plants has been in day mode for five hours. So, the high level of CO2 is probably due to human activity in the house. For a while I did yoga in the lung room to elevate the CO2, but it set off the audible alarm on the meter. The plants might have liked it, though.

 

[Amnesia]

Its not the same as o2 and is highly oxidative… the devil is in the dose but it’s certainly not going to make a significant difference in terms of o2

Thinking in terms of a theoretical mixing chamber embedded in the growing medium similar mechanically to @Pipecarver's design, wouldn't the released O atoms quickly combine to form O2 molecules?

 

[Aqua Man]

Thanks so much! That's a great explanation.

As I write this, the CO2 in the room is 905 PPM, which is in the caution zone on the meter. That's with the room ventilated. It has been enlightening to see how the CO2 level changes. The tent with the flowering plants has been in day mode for almost two hours. The tent with the vegging plants has been in day mode for five hours. So, the high level of CO2 is probably due to human activity in the house. For a while I did yoga in the lung room to elevate the CO2, but it set off the audible alarm on the meter. The plants might have liked it, though.

Co2 is often misconceived as poisonous at levels that are fine… mist basements are around 1000ppm. Carbon monoxide is the dangerous gas. Levels of less than 1% atmospheric co2 are generally safe thats 10,000ppm. Some newer studies show much lower over very long periods of time can have some mild irritation or mild other side effects.

 

[Aqua Man]

Thinking in terms of a theoretical mixing chamber embedded in the growing medium similar mechanically to @Pipecarver's design, wouldn't the released O atoms quickly combine to form O2 molecules?

Not like you think trust me on this

 

[Aqua Man]

Here is some info on co2 for you. There is soooo much misinformation out there on this so hopefully this clears it up some for you.

https://www.fsis.usda.gov/sites/default/files/media_file/2020-08/Carbon-Dioxide.pdf

 

[Aqua Man]

I used to spend 30 min in my sealed room and the ppm would go from the setpoint of 1200ppm to 2400ppm. Overnight it could reach as high as almost 3k but once the lights came on it wasn’t 30 min before the tank was kicking back on. Alot of variables there but yeah

 

[Franksta]

Thanks for the interesting thread @Aqua Man, and thanks to everyone who contributed. I'll be thinking about how oxygenation could apply to organic soil growing. I spent some time scanning web search results. Information is plentiful, so it will take some time to sort and sift through it.

Apparently, there are time-tested techniques for increasing oxygen in soil. One is structuring the porosity of the soil to make sure sufficient pores exist in the soil to provide oxygen for respiration. Excessive water also limits the amount of oxygen the pores can contain. A common method is to loosen the surface of the soil, which is known as tillage aeration. I noticed hardening of the soil surface can result from top dressing nutrients and amendments, so I use a hand rake to till the soil.

There's abundant information about using H2O2 to oxygenate soil. It is a powerful oxidant. It reacts with water to release oxygen molecules. I need to read more about this, especially techniques for how to do it. I noticed claims that too much oxygen can stunt root growth. It's also a disinfectant, so I began to wonder if it could be used to sterilize soil prior to the addition of helpful microorganisms and growing plants. If nothing else, it's commonly used to kill fungus gnats.


Then mine should be growing well. I live on an island. There certainly is plenty of vegetation here.

It's a combination of factors. The water cooling effects.... Clean constant Air flow... Frost protection.... It's just checking a lot of environment controls


Some oceanside soil is really ideal also

Large Air flow is huge IMO also especially during the flower phase

 

[Amnesia]

@Aqua Man - Sorry I didn't get back to this sooner.

Where did you find to much o2 can inhibit growth. Thats just absolutely false so you know.

Well... I'm going to have to eat my words on that one. I'm sure I saw it somewhere, but I sure can't find it now. If I eventually find it, I'll try to remember to let you know. It's probably wrong, though, because if it were correct there would be more information, and there isn't any.

It's become clear to me that O2 has understated importance. This document was helpful to me as a primer on the subject:

http://www.dramm.com/media/Dissolved%20Oxygen%20in%20the%20Greenhouse.pdf

As a soil grower, I'm mostly interested in finding ways to increase O2 in the soil. That's why @Pipecarver's post with the air domes interested me. I don't know how many things I'm doing wrong, but how I prepare irrigation water might be one of them. I've been filling my watering cans after I use them and letting them sit till the next watering. Now I'm thinking that doing so makes the water anaerobic, both from off-gassing and warming the water to room temperature. That takes me in the direction of wondering how to improve soil oxygenation.

Meanwhile... I see that you're also correct about how H2O2 is best used as a disinfectant. I found recipes for using it to get rid of fungus gnats and used one of them yesterday. It's a 4:1 mix of water to 3% hydrogen peroxide. I sprayed it on the surface of the soil and today I haven't seen any gnats. Hooray for that!

 

[Observer]

I'd say no. Not the same thing at all. Ozone is actually destructive to cells, and is used as a cleaner.

Ozone

 

[Aqua Man]

@Aqua Man - Sorry I didn't get back to this sooner.


Well... I'm going to have to eat my words on that one. I'm sure I saw it somewhere, but I sure can't find it now. If I eventually find it, I'll try to remember to let you know. It's probably wrong, though, because if it were correct there would be more information, and there isn't any.

It's become clear to me that O2 has understated importance. This document was helpful to me as a primer on the subject:

http://www.dramm.com/media/Dissolved%20Oxygen%20in%20the%20Greenhouse.pdf

As a soil grower, I'm mostly interested in finding ways to increase O2 in the soil. That's why @Pipecarver's post with the air domes interested me. I don't know how many things I'm doing wrong, but how I prepare irrigation water might be one of them. I've been filling my watering cans after I use them and letting them sit till the next watering. Now I'm thinking that doing so makes the water anaerobic, both from off-gassing and warming the water to room temperature. That takes me in the direction of wondering how to improve soil oxygenation.

Meanwhile... I see that you're also correct about how H2O2 is best used as a disinfectant. I found recipes for using it to get rid of fungus gnats and used one of them yesterday. It's a 4:1 mix of water to 3% hydrogen peroxide. I sprayed it on the surface of the soil and today I haven't seen any gnats. Hooray for that!

Well i have this idea that using fabric pots in a pail with an airstone or o2 concentrator underneath will greatly improve your gas exchange and o2 levels. A rack would be placed in the pail to set the bags on and the lips of the bags folded over the rim of the pail so the air pump s in will be forced into the media and vent through the soil. This would best be done with a breathable media like peat or coco with perlite

 

[Aqua Man]

Ozone

Interesting but it would likely kill off everything in a live system

 

[Amnesia]

I interpret the ozone

Interesting but it would likely kill off everything in a live system

I believe the article is saying or implying that the O2 would be converted to O2 before introducing the irrigation water to the plants.

The most effective way of introducing the highest possible levels of DO into water, ozonation, is becoming more and more common in the greenhouse. Ozone is produced on site from ambient air and is increasingly used for irrigation water disinfection. A key reason for ozone use in horticulture is that once the ozone (O3) has oxidized (destroyed) the pathogen, biofilm or bad bacteria, it converts to DO. The ozonation process allows about 12.5 times more DO to be put into solution than using pure oxygen.

 

[Amnesia]

Well i have this idea that using fabric pots in a pail with an airstone or o2 concentrator underneath will greatly improve your gas exchange and o2 levels. A rack would be placed in the pail to set the bags on and the lips of the bags folded over the rim of the pail so the air pump s in will be forced into the media and vent through the soil. This would best be done with a breathable media like peat or coco with perlite

I can visualize what you're suggesting. I had an idea to place some type of dispersion device or grid at the bottom of the pot, covered by something like perlite, clay balls or maybe plain old gravel. More thought is needed. I have a clone in a 1-gallon pot that will need to be up-potted soon. I'm tempted to experiment. I don't have an air pump, though, and I don't know how I would calculate air flow, pressure, volume, etc.

 

[moe.red]

I interpret the ozone

I believe the article is saying or implying that the O2 would be converted to O2 before introducing the irrigation water to the plants.

If you read that again, the path to O2 from O3 is oxidation. So cell destruction.

The only places this might apply is sterile grows. Even then, I would need to see some data on how destructive to root cells this would be in comparison to H2O2.

 

[Amnesia]

If you read that again, the path to O2 from O3 is oxidation. So cell destruction.

The only places this might apply is sterile grows. Even then, I would need to see some data on how destructive to root cells this would be in comparison to H2O2.

Well... I'm hardly qualified to defend the article. It does say this, though:

O3 is up to 13 times more soluble in water than pure O2 and it is very unstable so it quickly converts back into O2.

That may mean that the O3 contact time in the irrigation water is important. I would think that the advantage of O3 is that it disinfects and stabilizes to O2. When it does so it results in higher levels of DO than is otherwise feasible.

 

[Aqua Man]

I interpret the ozone

I believe the article is saying or implying that the O2 would be converted to O2 before introducing the irrigation water to the plants.

Yeah but if you so that how do you keep the o2 in the water? The system needs to be sealed and the air in it needs to be elevated in o2 to maintain it

 

[Aqua Man]

Well... I'm hardly qualified to defend the article. It does say this, though:

That may mean that the O3 contact time in the irrigation water is important. I would think that the advantage of O3 is that it disinfects and stabilizes to O2. When it does so it results in higher levels of DO than is otherwise feasible.

But it wont stay in the water if the gasses above the water are at atmospheric levels… its more complicated than one may think. I have looked at all sources of o2 in my hunt when i first considered attempting to raise o2 levels

 

[Observer]

Interesting but it would likely kill off everything in a live system

So it would work for me, sterile.

Sweet

I could try it down the line lol

 

[Observer]

Yeah but if you so that how do you keep the o2 in the water? The system needs to be sealed and the air in it needs to be elevated in o2 to maintain it

@Aqua Man

We need to find a balance, the perfect balance for how cold for maximum growth and how cold for maximum DO saturation.

 

[Rootsruler]

But it wont stay in the water if the gasses above the water are at atmospheric levels… its more complicated than one may think. I have looked at all sources of o2 in my hunt when i first considered attempting to raise o2 levels

Does air pressure have anything to do with dissolves O2 levels in water? This is what I'm getting from your responses. What I'm also understanding is that if the O2 level in water is higher than in the atmosphere the O2 will escape into the atmosphere until equilibrium has been achieved between the two unless you're able to shield the enriched O2 in a chamber that keeps atmospheric levels of O2 from equalizing?

 

[Observer]

If you read that again, the path to O2 from O3 is oxidation. So cell destruction.

The only places this might apply is sterile grows. Even then, I would need to see some data on how destructive to root cells this would be in comparison to H2O2.

Ok cool thanks guys, why I point this stuff out so I can see the contradictions and why's

Ok so I get an ozone generator?

As I strictly run sterile for now I could somewhat test it.

 

[moe.red]

Ok cool thanks guys, why I point this stuff out so I can see the contradictions and why's

Ok so I get an ozone generator?

As I strictly run sterile for now I could somewhat test it.

I am NOT advising that. But you do you.

You do not want ozone escaping into your living area. I also think it will kill the plant - but try it if you can be safe with it.

 

[Observer]

If you read that again, the path to O2 from O3 is oxidation. So cell destruction.

The only places this might apply is sterile grows. Even then, I would need to see some data on how destructive to root cells this would be in comparison to H2O2.

It does state its unstable and quickly converts back to o2 would that conversion be too long or too strong?

 

[Observer]

I am NOT advising that. But you do you.

You do not want ozone escaping into your living area. I also think it will kill the plant - but try it if you can be safe with it.

Heard, thank you Moe.

Kinda curious