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Bean's Stash Closet

Moe.Red said:
Plant looks perfect.







My only concern is if it would look just as good at 500ppm.







The nutes you use will have an impact on taste, color, finish.







You can definitely have too much of a good thing, like garlic. And nutes sometimes.







This this where your growing style will emerge. What will you do? Smoke grows trees on sneezes farts and a little cal mag. I’m in the low middle. I know successful growers that do over 1000.
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And sneezes and farts aren't really needed imvho
 
What's everyone's feelings on res changes? GH says weekly full resets, but they sell me the shit. Seems counterintuitive in a living water system, and wasteful.

My experiment thus far has been been to treat it like an aquarium, ie periodic partial changouts. Each week I exchange 4 gallons of fresh mix in addition to the fresh tap I top off with. This typically nets me a ~25% weekly exchange based on my total. My water has been very stable since cycling week 2 or 3 of veg, even before silica.

I'd like to develop this more over time and learn how to ammend individual things in the res as needed vs these predetermined ratios and their schedules etc. I understand the potential issues w accumulation of things and ratios being thrown off by ammending. That's what I hope to figure out. At the end of it I think I'll have a much better understanding than if I just follow someone's recipe.

Thoughts?
 
I had read where weekly changes are necessary but I do not think it necessary in my limited experience. I have been trying to go all the way with a single change out at flip to keep the proper ratios in order. I honestly think it's counterproductive to constantly change the res, seems like you just get the buffer at 100% and then you change it out? Naw, not me if I don't have to, especially right now where I have been buried in life.

Running a 4 plant system takes NOTICEABLY more nutrients and what not so cost starts to play a factor as well as time. Another consideration is the amount of water in that 4 site. I'm guessing that there are about 28-30 gallons of water in that system and it takes over 24 hours for my system to filter that much. Why waste all that water if you don't have to, considering the waste off that system is double what I keep. So roughly 90 gallons of well water to make that change out, rather not if I don't have to.

As far as amending a veg res to reflect flower ratios, I am sure it can be done but you would need to be able to analyze your base before amending and I would imagine that would take some fairly sophisticated equipment. That is when I will do a change out.
 
Cool_Beans said:
What's everyone's feelings on res changes? GH says weekly full resets, but they sell me the shit. Seems counterintuitive in a living water system, and wasteful.

My experiment thus far has been been to treat it like an aquarium, ie periodic partial changouts. Each week I exchange 4 gallons of fresh mix in addition to the fresh tap I top off with. This typically nets me a ~25% weekly exchange based on my total. My water has been very stable since cycling week 2 or 3 of veg, even before silica.

I'd like to develop this more over time and learn how to ammend individual things in the res as needed vs these predetermined ratios and their schedules etc. I understand the potential issues w accumulation of things and ratios being thrown off by ammending. That's what I hope to figure out. At the end of it I think I'll have a much better understanding than if I just follow someone's recipe.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...
Alright bro, I'll do my best here, but please understand we all have imperfect knowledge and this area is incredibly complex.

First, with RDWC, we have it easy in terms of managing nutes. We can dump and refill in a hearbeat and reset all our ratios instantaneously without worry of CEC or any soil salt buildup issues etc. I have come to view this as an emergency only technique for new growers, or if you are pushing the limits and mess up and need to get back to a baseline.

Dumping the res is not a natural process for the plant. You never change out soil mid grow.

When you dump the res, you are dumping exudates. These are chemical signals that the plant sends out via the roots to do things like attract beneficials, change PH to steer nute uptake, call in predators of things like root aphids, and a million other processes that are very complex and beyond my ability to explain in laymen's terms. I have been studying this for months now, and I find that in many cases the papers and studies done in this area (root exudates, enzymes, proteins and aminos, carbohydrates in the root zone produced by the plant) do not agree on their findings. But the truth is these studies are tangential to the base question we are asking right now, not specifically testing if removing all exudates so the plant has to start over is a good thing or a bad thing for cannabis.

I intend to study this myself in a controlled way.

So, I do not have hard data to share with you. What I have is about 10 years of RDWC experience and a lot of plants behind me. I've run sterile, I've done weekly res changes, I've done zero res changes for an entire grow, and pretty much everything in between.

They all work.

What I have not done is a side by side with clones in a controlled environment to find out HOW res changes effect the final product. That will happen.

If you want my "gut" answer to this, understanding it is a guess based on imperfect testing, I say leave the res intact if you have the skills to determine how to amend the res should you form a nutrient imbalance. Even new growers can do the nuclear option and drain and refill the res if they do have problems, so I would still lean on the keep the res intact side for them, as long as they have someone to help guide them if they run into trouble.

If not, weekly res changes are a good idea.
 
One study I have mentioned that cannabis typically uses 17% of it's energy in pushing carbohydrates and other things out the roots.

We all know that mother nature tends towards the efficient, and kills off wasteful things thru out-competition from other organisms. This is not just a cannabis thing, almost all plants do this root zone sweetening to some extent.

My thought is why waste that energy by flushing it down the drain if you don't have to. Or dump it to only replace it with a bottle of panther piss like Bud Candy? Naw, not me.
 
I can get through a whole veg cycle (6 to 8 wks) without a change but i usually find i do maybe change out 3 times during flower. I Never do a complete change out always leaving 5 to 10 gal in the system (50 gal total in my system)
 
Moe.Red said:
Dumping the res is not a natural process for the plant. You never change out soil mid grow
Click to expand...
This is the heart of it right here for me, and why I had trouble accepting it.

Like you're saying, I can always toss the water if things go sideways and start over. I also anticipate some instability as the plant starts consuming more rapidly.

Thanks for the thoughts. I find more comfort in it being sort of ambiguous, there is some freedom to explore there, if that makes sense.
 
smoke said:
I can get through a whole veg cycle (6 to 8 wks) without a change but i usually find i do maybe change out 3 times during flower. I Never do a complete change out always leaving 5 to 10 gal in the system (50 gal total in my system)
Click to expand...
Do you do more changes during flower because it is consuming more and changing chemistry? Or because you are introducing different things to the mix?
 
I know if I had do change every week I’d have to rethink hydro - 6/7 weeks sounds like a positive! Lol
 
smoke said:
Changing nutrient makeup
ie: the plant picks how much of what they want.
Click to expand...
Is that true tho? Does the plant have a filter that can select one element like N over K?

If the plant has a filter, why do we get nute burn?

Why do we perseverate over the exact right mix if the plant is capable of pulling just what it needs?

I think it has a very limited ability to determine what elements present in the water it takes up to allow or block. I think it takes up all nutes in the ratios that we put them in the water, and the wrong ratios lead to imbalances. I think it might manage PH thru exudates to say allow uptake of flower nutes over veg nutes by changing the PH right around the roots.

I'm not telling here, I'm asking.
 
Moe.Red said:
Alright bro, I'll do my best here, but please understand we all have imperfect knowledge and this area is incredibly complex.

First, with RDWC, we have it easy in terms of managing nutes. We can dump and refill in a hearbeat and reset all our ratios instantaneously without worry of CEC or any soil salt buildup issues etc. I have come to view this as an emergency only technique for new growers, or if you are pushing the limits and mess up and need to get back to a baseline.

Dumping the res is not a natural process for the plant. You never change out soil mid grow.

When you dump the res, you are dumping exudates. These are chemical signals that the plant sends out via the roots to do things like attract beneficials, change PH to steer nute uptake, call in predators of things like root aphids, and a million other processes that are very complex and beyond my ability to explain in laymen's terms. I have been studying this for months now, and I find that in many cases the papers and studies done in this area (root exudates, enzymes, proteins and aminos, carbohydrates in the root zone produced by the plant) do not agree on their findings. But the truth is these studies are tangential to the base question we are asking right now, not specifically testing if removing all exudates so the plant has to start over is a good thing or a bad thing for cannabis.

I intend to study this myself in a controlled way.

So, I do not have hard data to share with you. What I have is about 10 years of RDWC experience and a lot of plants behind me. I've run sterile, I've done weekly res changes, I've done zero res changes for an entire grow, and pretty much everything in between.

They all work.

What I have not done is a side by side with clones in a controlled environment to find out HOW res changes effect the final product. That will happen.

If you want my "gut" answer to this, understanding it is a guess based on imperfect testing, I say leave the res intact if you have the skills to determine how to amend the res should you form a nutrient imbalance. Even new growers can do the nuclear option and drain and refill the res if they do have problems, so I would still lean on the keep the res intact side for them, as long as they have someone to help guide them if they run into trouble.

If not, weekly res changes are a good idea.
Click to expand...
Dumping the whole rez can be looked at as unnatural but I do it three times a day. Ebb and Flow water for 30 minutes 3 times a day. It still produces high yields.
What actual is tip burn? Is it too high of PPM or the wrong percentage of NPK and such. I have my own data suggesting it is wrong percentages.
 
Moe.Red said:
Is that true tho? Does the plant have a filter that can select one element like N over K?
Click to expand...
I too have wondered about this, and doubt that they can do that for reasons Moe mentioned. The red flag for me that says this is not being done was a lesson I learned when I first started growing in soil. Our well water rides between 700 and 900 ppm and I had read that I would not be able to use that water to grow cannabis. My stubborn ass had to f around and find out, which I did, lol.

I still don't understand the science behind it, but with all the tds in our water, the plants can't take in the good stuff no matter how much of it you give them when all that other stuff is in the water. Doesn't make logical sense to me, but I almost killed my first plants until I started getting bottled water from town. If they could pick and choose, I would think this would be the perfect scenario for them to do that, but they do not.
 
Anthem275 said:
Dumping the whole rez can be looked at as unnatural but I do it three times a day. Ebb and Flow water for 30 minutes 3 times a day. It still produces high yields.
What actual is tip burn? Is it too high of PPM or the wrong percentage of NPK and such. I have my own data suggesting it is wrong percentages.
Click to expand...
I think you are collecting the water in the drain, and re-using it 3 times a day, right? This is not a drain to waste ebb and flow, is it?

If you are using the same water 3x a day for a week, that is not the same as dumping the res.
 
I think it has a very limited ability to determine what elements present in the water it takes up to allow or block. I think it takes up all nutes in the ratios that we put them in the water, and the wrong ratios lead to imbalances. I think it might manage PH thru exudates to say allow uptake of flower nutes over veg nutes by changing the PH right around the roots.

The area the plant can control PH is limited. I question how this would apply to a multi gallon system pumping water thru out the system 24/7.
 
SweetLeafGrow said:
I too have wondered about this, and doubt that they can do that for reasons Moe mentioned. The red flag for me that says this is not being done was a lesson I learned when I first started growing in soil. Our well water rides between 700 and 900 ppm and I had read that I would not be able to use that water to grow cannabis. My stubborn ass had to f around and find out, which I did, lol.

I still don't understand the science behind it, but with all the tds in our water, the plants can't take in the good stuff no matter how much of it you give them when all that other stuff is in the water. Doesn't make logical sense to me, but I almost killed my first plants until I started getting bottled water from town. If they could pick and choose, I would think this would be the perfect scenario for them to do that, but they do not.
Click to expand...
 
SweetLeafGrow said:
I too have wondered about this, and doubt that they can do that for reasons Moe mentioned. The red flag for me that says this is not being done was a lesson I learned when I first started growing in soil. Our well water rides between 700 and 900 ppm and I had read that I would not be able to use that water to grow cannabis. My stubborn ass had to f around and find out, which I did, lol.

I still don't understand the science behind it, but with all the tds in our water, the plants can't take in the good stuff no matter how much of it you give them when all that other stuff is in the water. Doesn't make logical sense to me, but I almost killed my first plants until I started getting bottled water from town. If they could pick and choose, I would think this would be the perfect scenario for them to do that, but they do not.
Click to expand...
Sorry about the previous post, computer problems. You have to look at the TDS ratio as well. If it is high in Calcium than it will cause problems with uptake of other nutrients. Moulders Chart is a place to start
 
Anthem275 said:
I think it has a very limited ability to determine what elements present in the water it takes up to allow or block. I think it takes up all nutes in the ratios that we put them in the water, and the wrong ratios lead to imbalances. I think it might manage PH thru exudates to say allow uptake of flower nutes over veg nutes by changing the PH right around the roots.

The area the plant can control PH is limited. I question how this would apply to a multi gallon system pumping water thru out the system 24/7.
Click to expand...
I agree with everything you just said.

The PH thing was not a RDWC thing, it is a plant in dirt thing. I don't think the ability to change PH is drastic either.

Over time, we see PH shift in RDWC. Generally a very small amount. It can go off the rails based on decaying organics or other things, but my belief is that if you run a clean system, its the plants that at least partially cause the PH to trend over time. I could be wrong. But again, a very limited amount. I think the bigger impact to the root zone is things like carbs and aminos that call in symbiotic life.
 
Moe.Red said:
I think you are collecting the water in the drain, and re-using it 3 times a day, right? This is not a drain to waste ebb and flow, is it?

If you are using the same water 3x a day for a week, that is not the same as dumping the res.
Click to expand...
What I was trying to point out, I am basically empty the soil in the pot 3 times a day. I am moving in the direction that things like tip burn are the result of improper percentages of nutrient uptake. The plant uptakes 1 molecule at a time. It has some ability to pick and choose, but it cannot over come a gross percentage of error. I have learned from this jacks stuff because there is no tip burn. But if I start messing with the ratios I can get tip burn. I just moved some clones from their 1 part seedling to their standard formula at full tilt and no tip burn. Leading me to believe that ratios are key. which is my reasoning for doing weekly water changes. I believe as the plant uptakes water and nutrients the ratios become out of balance.

If you get tip burn like the OLD GROWERS use to say time to back it down, you have already impacted the yield. No different than VPD or any other environmental difference.

There is so much more to this than just NPK. While I detest the liquid nutrient lines I have to admit they have done their research and applied their knowledge to their products. The next time you pick up a bottle of TRIO and think the only things the bottle has are those listed as the NPK ratio I am afraid you are grossly mistaken. They use every legal product they can to increase yield. From kelp to alfalfa.
 
Moe.Red said:
I agree with everything you just said.

The PH thing was not a RDWC thing, it is a plant in dirt thing. I don't think the ability to change PH is drastic either.

Over time, we see PH shift in RDWC. Generally a very small amount. It can go off the rails based on decaying organics or other things, but my belief is that if you run a clean system, its the plants that at least partially cause the PH to trend over time. I could be wrong. But again, a very limited amount. I think the bigger impact to the root zone is things like carbs and aminos that call in symbiotic life.
Click to expand...
I believe the change in PH is driven by the ion uptake of the nutrients. Meaning it uptakes more positive ions I believe and that raises the PH. I need to study up more on that.
 
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Cool_Beans said:
Is it possible to regulate uptake of desired nutrients via managing pH around the absorption ranges?
Click to expand...
To some degree. I do this presently, start out with a PH of say 5.6 and at the end of the grow I am at 5.9 but it is NOT a secret weapon and it only slightly limits the uptake of say Nitrogen which is what you want to slow down later in flower.
 
Anthem275 said:
To some degree. I do this presently, start out with a PH of say 5.6 and at the end of the grow I am at 5.9 but it is NOT a secret weapon and it only slightly limits the uptake of say Nitrogen which is what you want to slow down later in flower.
Click to expand...
This makes sense. Thank you.
 
Cool_Beans said:
Is it possible to regulate uptake of desired nutrients via managing pH around the absorption ranges?
Click to expand...
Yes.

ph-hydroponics-solution-nutrient-availability.gif

Take Phosphorus for example. If your PH is too low, you will essentially prevent the uptake. Anthem is right, it has to do with the ions in play.

Look at Calcium and Magnesium. If you are having a Cal deficiency, like at the beginning of flower, letting the PH drift up is a good thing. Let it drift too far and iron becomes a problem.

There are many charts out there and often they are drawn differently. Also note that Hydro is not the same as soil, and there are different charts for soil. The bottom line is the macro trends are true regardless of the specifics.

When you hear the term lockout - this is where it comes from.
 
Cool_Beans said:
Hell yeah. Feel like I'm asking the right questions here. You guys rock🤘
Click to expand...
Yes, you are. It is rewarding to work with someone who does.

I get a kick out of reliving my early days of growing thru someone else's eyes. Any successes I had back then were pure luck. My mentors were books and trial and error. Errors can really take the fun out of it.

In my first grow, I had no inkling of what PH was or why it mattered. And of course, being illegal I was covert and could not really ask questions.

It was super exciting to get seeds in the mail 2 months after ordering- never really knowing if they were just gonna take your money and run. Herbies Headshop was my first genetics provider. The seeds came in a little jar full of beads. Had to fish them out.

I don't know how many plants I have grown, but I do remember the excitement of getting started, and the defeat of all the mistakes I made.

You don't need to go as far down the rabbit hole as I did in this hobby to be successful and happy. But if you want to, I'll be around to talk it thru with you.
 
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