Mythbusters

[moe.red]

But the more I use the dusk/dawn feature the more I think plants really don't care how they wake up indoors.

Bruce bugbee agrees with you.

Honestly the wakeup as it pertains to far red is irrelevant. It the putting to sleep that matters.

Far Red - if run at sufficient PPFD for 30 before and 30 after lights out will switch the plant hormones to sleep mode faster. This has been proven in peer reviewed studies.

I can dig up the links if you guys want, but don't confuse dusk/dawn with using Far Red to hack pFr hormones. One the plants do not care about (slow increase or decrease in PPFD at start and end of day) and one that plants do care about - using far red to flip hormones to night much faster.

 

[Pipecarver]

Bruce bugbee agrees with you.

Honestly the wakeup as it pertains to far red is irrelevant. It the putting to sleep that matters.

Far Red - if run at sufficient PPFD for 30 before and 30 after lights out will switch the plant hormones to sleep mode faster. This has been proven in peer reviewed studies.

I can dig up the links if you guys want, but don't confuse dusk/dawn with using Far Red to hack pFr hormones. One the plants do not care about (slow increase or decrease in PPFD at start and end of day) and one that plants do care about - using far red to flip hormones to night much faster.

So how do I determine how far red my red lights are. They look pink and quite bright with all 3 on. if I paint a white light red is it now a far red light? I just wonder about the red in my lights if its actually the far red I'm looking for or just red colored white light....Moe?????

 

[moe.red]

So how do I determine how far red my red lights are. They look pink and quite bright with all 3 on. if I paint a white light red is it now a far red light? I just wonder about the red in my lights if its actually the far red I'm looking for or just red colored white light....Moe?????

Far red is a spectrum. It requires specific diodes. Generally lights that have FR diodes have a separate switch or dial for just that channel.

Most lights have red diodes that fall into the par range and do not go above 700nM. Far Red - in order to do any of the cool things we talk about with far red - needs to be 730-740 range. And that hump needs to be big enough (enough diodes and wattage) so that you have a red/ far red ratio of at least 2:1. When it is just a little far red in the 5:1 area, it is not very effective.

 

[Pipecarver]

Far red is a spectrum. It requires specific diodes. Generally lights that have FR diodes have a separate switch or dial for just that channel.

Most lights have red diodes that fall into the par range and do not go above 700nM. Far Red - in order to do any of the cool things we talk about with far red - needs to be 730-740 range. And that hump needs to be big enough (enough diodes and wattage) so that you have a red/ far red ratio of at least 2:1. When it is just a little far red in the 5:1 area, it is not very effective.

I'm pretty sure the 4 crappy red light I got for $65 are not far red I just amzon'd far red light .....Ya I'm pretty sure mine are not far red.

 

[CannaGranny]

New Mythbuster Q.......

Do mothers lose vitality after a series of cuts have been taken from her? If so how long before she should be put out to pasture and flowered? Can first cuts from a new mother be used as a next generation mother for the eventual drop in vitality the original mother may experience if she does lose vitality?

I ran clones from original seeds one time for a period of seven years. This mean’s cloning from clones. I never saw any big decrease of anything. I’m sure that it matters that all the clones maintain the same health.

 

[Rootsruler]

I ran clones from original seeds one time for a period of seven years. This mean’s cloning from clones. I never saw any big decrease of anything. I’m sure that it matters that all the clones maintain the same health.

Was the mother housed indoors? I found a study that said that plants should not lose their vitality if they are kept in a clean, healthy environment and aren't flowered. Vitality degradation happens when they are attacked by pests or disease. It's supposed to change something genetically through gene mutation.

 

[CannaGranny]

Was the mother housed indoors? I found a study that said that plants should not lose their vitality if they are kept in a clean, healthy environment and aren't flowered. Vitality degradation happens when they are attacked by pests or disease. It's supposed to change something genetically through gene mutation.

Yes they were.

 

[Rootsruler]

Bruce bugbee agrees with you.

Honestly the wakeup as it pertains to far red is irrelevant. It the putting to sleep that matters.

Far Red - if run at sufficient PPFD for 30 before and 30 after lights out will switch the plant hormones to sleep mode faster. This has been proven in peer reviewed studies.

I can dig up the links if you guys want, but don't confuse dusk/dawn with using Far Red to hack pFr hormones. One the plants do not care about (slow increase or decrease in PPFD at start and end of day) and one that plants do care about - using far red to flip hormones to night much faster.

I just watched a video on this with Dr. Bugbee commenting. His summary was that plants don't need a slow ramp up. In fact, they are ready to photosynthesize within minutes of waking up. Another interesting finding was that plants are at optimal synthesis inside the first 2 hours of lights on.

Got me thinking. I usually wait a couple hours for the girls to "wake up" before I feed. Maybe feed at lights on is better when they are at optimal synthesis? My question to him would be if I do feed at lights on would the immediate synthesis be interrupted due to the injection of nutrients disrupting the balance the soil has been building after the last feeding throwing the rhizosphere out of balance and hampering uptake? IOW, does feed time affect synthesis?

Same with lights off. His finding is that there is no benefit to ramping down in regards to photosynthetic activity. His general consensus is more light, more photosynthetic activity. Ramping down will decrease that process. If we're talking about getting them into a rest state faster and the benefits of that then we are talking about a different beneficial effect but from what I understand it is minimal at best.

 

[moe.red]

I'm pretty sure the 4 crappy red light I got for $65 are not far red I just amzon'd far red light .....Ya I'm pretty sure mine are not far red.View attachment 1894

Your costs up there scare me.

 

[Pipecarver]

Your costs up there scare me.

Me too, I was looking at some Cree far red lights and the price was $35 US = $50Cdn + 15% they want $46US shipping = $70 +15% so lights that cost you $35 will cost me around $150

 

[Moshmen]

Was the mother housed indoors? I found a study that said that plants should not lose their vitality if they are kept in a clean, healthy environment and aren't flowered. Vitality degradation happens when they are attacked by pests or disease. It's supposed to change something genetically through gene mutation.

The moonglow you have is probably 10/12 clones deep , I clone then flower the mom for space reasons

 

[Rootsruler]

Then your example proves the point because that cultivar has a lot of vitality.

 

[ZombieRider]

I can get these sent out on Monday, PM me

Far red has a few uses. What are you looking for? There are different purposes based on your desired result.

Also the ratio of R/FR is important. So if you start a thread with all the details like the lights you use with spectrum charts and PPFD maps if you can find one (preferably not from the vendor) I'll try to walk you thru it. Migro is a good source.

Far red can signal a shade response and make the plant grow horizontally. Helps when scrogging sometimes. But you need to start that early in veg. You can use the Emmerson Effect to increase photosynthesis. That one to me is the hardest to manage.

Also,

Each phytochrome molecule has two states called isoforms. Left in the dark for several hours, it reverts to a state called Pr, where it strongly absorbs red light (FIG. 2). If a phytochrome molecule in this state absorbs a red photon, it changes to its Pfr state, where it absorbs far-red radiation. If the molecule absorbs a far-red photon, it reverts to its Pr state. When in its Pfr state, the molecule is biologically active and may interact with the plant’s molecular machinery. Given this, a phytochrome can be seen as a reversible biological switch that can enable or inhibit various plant functions. One such important function is the detection of neighboring plants.

That Pr/Pfr stuff is hormonal, the way the plant signals sleep mode or wake mode. Using the far red for 30 minutes prior to and 30 minutes after your lights go out, you can essentially put the plant to sleep faster. This could help you to run a different schedule (longer day) which allows for higher DLI. Or you could turn the lights down a little, run an extra hour, and get the same result as 12/12 but less light intensity, which can help plants that are stressed with too many photons for their available support systems to process.

I could do on for hours on this crap, I think I'll stop here and live vicariously thru you.

Whats up! Thanks a lot for this info. So what am I looking for with FR? Well...more terps and flavonoids! I would assume running a higher DLI would allow more terps or flavonoids? THen again wouldn't that be entering CO2 territory with a DLI higher than say 45? So my main goal with experimenting with different wavelengths currently is for that flavor and smell in the bud, but my environment and DLI are pretty dialed I feel atm. Do you usually run those red bars?

 

[MDK]

Sorry if mentioned, how about harvest process. Does stabbing a plant thru the stalk help or hurt? Does drying in dark matter vs just regular ambient light? 24 or 48 hours of dark before chopping does it do anything?

Is curing even important? Mean gene swears he just dries bud no cure and he won some emerald cups...says it tastes best then not after curing in a jar for months

 

[moe.red]

Whats up! Thanks a lot for this info. So what am I looking for with FR? Well...more terps and flavonoids! I would assume running a higher DLI would allow more terps or flavonoids? THen again wouldn't that be entering CO2 territory with a DLI higher than say 45? So my main goal with experimenting with different wavelengths currently is for that flavor and smell in the bud, but my environment and DLI are pretty dialed I feel atm. Do you usually run those red bars?

Funny, I remembered I promised to send these out, then the shit storm happened, looked all over PMs for an address - so yeah if you want I can send just send me your info in PM.

I don't personally attribute far red to anything to do with taste. It's more about pushing the plant to be bigger, branchier, more lateral growth, that kind of thing. I've never actually noticed my weed was better, just more of it or a different shape.

@Aqua Man is going to be writing an article on spectrum this week. I'll bet he touches on some of this. He's looking at recent studies and such.

 

[moe.red]

Sorry if mentioned, how about harvest process. Does stabbing a plant thru the stalk help or hurt? Does drying in dark matter vs just regular ambient light? 24 or 48 hours of dark before chopping does it do anything?

Is curing even important? Mean gene swears he just dries bud no cure and he won some emerald cups...says it tastes best then not after curing in a jar for months

Stabbing - dunno
Dark - not vital but I do it as light degrades THC over time
Harvest time - I think that Terps are best first AM. I don't do a dark period except normal night and harvest in the morning.
Curing yes it makes a difference if you smoke flower. For all the other methods of consumption - YMMV.

Just quick from the hip answers, I do have some testing to support these thoughts but not conclusive.

 

[ZombieRider]

Stabbing - dunno
Dark - not vital but I do it as light degrades THC over time
Harvest time - I think that Terps are best first AM. I don't do a dark period except normal night and harvest in the morning.
Curing yes it makes a difference if you smoke flower. For all the other methods of consumption - YMMV.

Just quick from the hip answers, I do have some testing to support these thoughts but not conclusive.

Do you harvest with the grow lights on? I harvest in the mornings just after lights turn on but I dial the lights to minimum. Im assuming this has something to do with the plant beginning to photosynthesize and will have more water in it making the drying process take longer and/or giving the bud a grassy taste?

 

[ZombieRider]

Funny, I remembered I promised to send these out, then the shit storm happened, looked all over PMs for an address - so yeah if you want I can send just send me your info in PM.

I don't personally attribute far red to anything to do with taste. It's more about pushing the plant to be bigger, branchier, more lateral growth, that kind of thing. I've never actually noticed my weed was better, just more of it or a different shape.

@Aqua Man is going to be writing an article on spectrum this week. I'll bet he touches on some of this. He's looking at recent studies and such.

Its all good bro things have been crazy round here too so no worries. Honestly I think I will just keep it simple w/o the red led's this run since I dont have anything vegging except for a Double fish breath mom who is just chillin, I want her to grow slow cuz its gonna be a while till I can take clones and flip them. I do appreciate the offer to send me those, I will take you up on that offer next run!

 

[moe.red]

Do you harvest with the grow lights on? I harvest in the mornings just after lights turn on but I dial the lights to minimum. Im assuming this has something to do with the plant beginning to photosynthesize and will have more water in it making the drying process take longer and/or giving the bud a grassy taste?

Yes I do, because it takes me days to harvest.

I try to start the day cutting down the plant(s) I am harvesting for the day before the lights come on, and pull them out of the tent for wet trimming. I think it makes a difference in terps, but it could all be in my head honestly. I have no data to confirm this is best.

 

[ZombieRider]

Yes I do, because it takes me days to harvest.

I try to start the day cutting down the plant(s) I am harvesting for the day before the lights come on, and pull them out of the tent for wet trimming. I think it makes a difference in terps, but it could all be in my head honestly. I have no data to confirm this is best.

So you harvest in the dark if your gonna wet trim and harvest with the lights on if your not wet trimming? Interesting. Are you wet trimming for flower or hash? I never even considered wet trimming.

 

[moe.red]

So you harvest in the dark if your gonna wet trim and harvest with the lights on if your not wet trimming? Interesting. Are you wet trimming for flower or hash? I never even considered wet trimming.

Well, I'm just weird.

My harvest goes into several different output streams.

I always save some flower from every plant to cure and smoke. That is wet trimmed, put into drying racks, then into glass to cure.
This weekend my kid pulled off some buds to freeze and press. I don't love that, but whatever. Live resin.
I often harvest and freeze dry the same day. Then that output with no water (they say this retains 97% of terpenes) goes into the various extraction processes. Rotovap, Short Path, Press, whatever.
Then the extractions get further processed as desired too. I guess the new thing is diamonds - doing some of that.

So the key here is that when I remove flower from the tent, it is in the AM. If I have a multi day harvest because I have 8 plants and not enough trimmers, the lights stay on for the remainder of the plants.

I only ever do a careful wet trim on flower intended to smoke. Not worth the effort with extractions, and many of the trimmed leaves contain THC so better to leave them.

I don't know if what I am doing is right, but it does work for me.

 

[Zen_seeker]

Some people argue that plants grown with a longer veg are more potent than the same plant flowered with a short or no veg. I'm still waiting for someone to prove it to me.

God I hope so!

 

[ZombieRider]

Well firstly, its cool to see your harvest methods cuz I have just been keeping it simple with flower and keif balls.

So would it be overkill to go in there with a headlamp to harvest and leave the lights off? Im thinking I might need a multi-day harvest with my current run, the scrog is fricken massive and its gonna take a while to trim.

Do you wet trim to speed up the drying process resulting in a higher quality smoke? Or just to make it easier to trim? This seems to go against common method these days of the 14-day dry, leaving more leaves on to prolong the drying process.

For your freeze dried bud do you use water-less extraction methodss because water can damage the trichome membrane's?

I do love me some diamonds, the best for dabbing cuz you just put a big ole chunky rock in there and dab away. Cold curing/hot curing I assume?
Im gonna try some wet trimming this round for shits and gigs.

 

[Max]

Bruce bugbee agrees with you.

Honestly the wakeup as it pertains to far red is irrelevant. It the putting to sleep that matters.

Far Red - if run at sufficient PPFD for 30 before and 30 after lights out will switch the plant hormones to sleep mode faster. This has been proven in peer reviewed studies.

I can dig up the links if you guys want, but don't confuse dusk/dawn with using Far Red to hack pFr hormones. One the plants do not care about (slow increase or decrease in PPFD at start and end of day) and one that plants do care about - using far red to flip hormones to night much faster.

I have used those rapidled 7watt far red pucks for 15 mins before lights out ..while it sped up bud onset in my setup by 4-5 days.I was getting 2x the stretch also..2inches per day .in the second grow I pulled them out simply because of that and the stretch went back to 1’ a day. Haven’t used them since

 

[ZombieRider]

God I hope so!

Well this run Im literally trying this out. I have a plant that was vegged 10 weeks and one only for 6 weeks. Lets see which one wins! This idea really interests me as one would assume a more sexually mature plant has more passageways for nutrients which means more thc/terp production. Or maybe its the opposite and the young ones overcompensate for their lack of veg growth by overstimulating their creation of terps and thc. I wonder if the flowering times of plants flipped at different ages would change as well. So a long vegged plant would flower shorter and the young plant would take longer as it needs to catch up to reach its full potential? Either way: both are gonna get you high lmao

 

[ZombieRider]

I have used those rapidled 7watt far red pucks for 15 mins before lights out ..while it sped up bud onset in my setup by 4-5 days.I was getting 2x the stretch also..2inches per day .in the second grow I pulled the out simply because of that and the stretch went back to 1’ a day. Haven’t used them since

Maybe you could use those far red pucks for plants that dont stretch at all?

 

[moe.red]

Well firstly, its cool to see your harvest methods cuz I have just been keeping it simple with flower and keif balls.

So would it be overkill to go in there with a headlamp to harvest and leave the lights off? Im thinking I might need a multi-day harvest with my current run, the scrog is fricken massive and its gonna take a while to trim.

Do you wet trim to speed up the drying process resulting in a higher quality smoke? Or just to make it easier to trim? This seems to go against common method these days of the 14-day dry, leaving more leaves on to prolong the drying process.

For your freeze dried bud do you use water-less extraction methodss because water can damage the trichome membrane's?

I do love me some diamonds, the best for dabbing cuz you just put a big ole chunky rock in there and dab away. Cold curing/hot curing I assume?
Im gonna try some wet trimming this round for shits and gigs.

Yeah, I think the headlamp thing might be overkill. We are farmers, not miners lol.

Yes, I have a very controlled drying rack system that does an excellent job removing water, and leaving leaves on the buds does not help really only get in the way and contribute to mold. I can still control the drying process and time, I'd just rather do it this way. I do leave the colas on the stalks tho, and when I pull out of the dry chamber I snip them off the stems and into the glass jar for final size.

I just find this to be the easiest and highest level of control.

I don't think water damages anything like trichomes, they are not water soluble. Good thing too or rain would wash the good stuff off the plant.

 

[Max]

That’s good thinking.I’ve never even thought of that.yeah I’d say your right.a more mature plant should start onset quicker than a younger plant..a little like clones do.

 

[Max]

Yeah, I think the headlamp thing might be overkill. We are farmers, not miners lol.

Yes, I have a very controlled drying rack system that does an excellent job removing water, and leaving leaves on the buds does not help really only get in the way and contribute to mold. I can still control the drying process and time, I'd just rather do it this way. I do leave the colas on the stalks tho, and when I pull out of the dry chamber I snip them off the stems and into the glass jar for final size.

I just find this to be the easiest and highest level of control.

I don't think water damages anything like trichomes, they are not water soluble. Good thing too or rain would wash the good stuff off the plant.

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I gotta get one of those racks..and everything else you got..maybe I should sell some of these Hermie seeds I just found to buy some gear

 

[moe.red]

I gotta get one of those racks..and everything else you got..maybe I should sell some of these Hermie seeds I just found to buy some gear

Let's TRADE!

The racks are from restaraunt.com they are for bread proofing.

Dry air gets sucked in at the bottom, wet air gets pulled from the top, and sensors control how much air. It's pretty set it and forget it.

The silver box under the counter with the big glass door is the freeze drier. It is a pretty incredible machine for what it does. The vacuum pump to the right is the difference between this and a standard deep freeze. It's significant.

The rest is just various extraction gear. RotoVap, Short path, press, I also have a vacuum oven for things like shatter and finishing EToH extractions.