Nesta’s DWC Attempt

[Nesta]

Shes fully recovered and cruising.

 

[Rootsruler]

Wow! What a turnaround!

Well Done Brother!!!

 

[Nesta]

Question for the DWC heads. These seem a bit light green to me. Some of the top fan leaves seam a bit discolored too. Do you think this was related to the prior o2 issue or a deficiency? Water is still stable at 400ppm/.8 ec/5.8 ph. VPD 1.2

 

[Observer]

Could probably go to 1.0 e.c?

Could be related as O2 issue wasn't long ago.

 

[moe.red]

Plant has been in catch up mode for weeks. I still believe your root system was stunted and not properly sized for the amount of green you have there.

If this plant were by itself and on its own timeline I would make sure all parameters for veg are perfect, do a major defol and see if I could encourage a bigger root ball as a percentage of the total plant. Hold off on flipping by a week or 2.

Roots will grow during flower a little bit but not like they do in veg.

It’s possible this has to do with being a reveg too. Hormones different than a typical seeding or clone. Biased away from root growth from early on.

The o2 didn’t help, but I think small roots happened before the air line issues

And sorry obs but I disagree that you need higher ppm. That’s the last thing I would do right now. It’s very normal to look at every problem as a deficiency and just need to add more n or p or whatever. It makes sense to us humans but I think th re is more to it and I think mulder would agree.

 

[Nesta]

Plant has been in catch up mode for weeks. I still believe your root system was stunted and not properly sized for the amount of green you have there.

If this plant were by itself and on its own timeline I would make sure all parameters for veg are perfect, do a major defol and see if I could encourage a bigger root ball as a percentage of the total plant. Hold off on flipping by a week or 2.

Roots will grow during flower a little bit but not like they do in veg.

It’s possible this has to do with being a reveg too. Hormones different than a typical seeding or clone. Biased away from root growth from early on.

The o2 didn’t help, but I think small roots happened before the air line issues

And sorry obs but I disagree that you need higher ppm. That’s the last thing I would do right now. It’s very normal to look at every problem as a deficiency and just need to add more n or p or whatever. It makes sense to us humans but I think th re is more to it and I think mulder would agree.

Roger that. Thanks Moe!

 

[steamroller]

Looks like Mg def to me.
That is why I was not first to chime in~!

 

[moe.red]

Looks like Mg def to me.
That is why I was not first to chime in~!

If you think that’s it epsom salt foliar could confirm it. I never have to do that personally using cal mag and a happy root system.

A bit higher ph would help too if that is the sole problem

I’m not sold that’s the root cause but willing to learn together. And yes that was a root pun.

 

[GrumpAzz]

Looks like Mg def to me.
That is why I was not first to chime in~!

Same

I don't know much about deficiencies yet, so I also just kept my mouth shut.

 

[smoke]

Foliar spray epsom, should see improvement in 3 or 4 days i too see mag def and possibly wanting more P

 

[moe.red]

Foliar spray epsom, should see improvement in 3 or 4 days i too see mag def and possibly wanting more P

Wouldn't you agree there is already enough of both in the water? His EC has been between .9 and 1.

Everything is fairly stable. PPMs 400, EC .9 and Ph 5.8.

@Nesta is this still the case? What are your ratios again?

 

[moe.red]

Same

I don't know much about deficiencies yet, so I also just kept my mouth shut.

I wish you wouldn't. Getting challenged is the best way to learn.

Thing is on this stuff we all have just some of the facts, and we do our best looking at pics and descriptions. The amount of variables here is pretty damn high. I have seen great growers disagree on basics, let alone comparing a picture of mg deficiency to a posted photo.

Let's assume it is a mg deficiency and nesta confirms it with a foliar test. What is the advice to him?



Nesta


From the web






Also, MG is immobile, one more data point.

 

[smoke]

@Nesta what makes up your ppms

 

[moe.red]

@Nesta what makes up your ppms

I'm going to translate this to Nesta's scale

GH flora series
In Veg, RO water plus calmag to 180 ppm then the flora series added at ratios of 3-2-1(3 parts grow ,2 parts micro, 1 part bloom) to around 350 ppm,

I feed them daily and only feed them what they eat daily.

Ppm's in veg usually stay 350 to 400 with a 7 week veg

129 PPM cal mag
Total PPM is 250

His total PPMS are between 600 and 700 adjusted for your scale. He is running almost 3X the salts you are.

 

[moe.red]

Now I’m interested at what strength ml/gal you are dosing the GH Trio. I just made a gallon to top off my res. I did 50% of the light feeding schedule. Keep in mind that my water out of the tap is 100ppm. I added powerSi, calimagic, the trio, fulvic and PH down to go from 6.3 to 5.8. The ending EC was 1 and the PPMs were 540. Now trying to stay close to SLGs recommended 400PPMs, I added plain water until I got down to .9ec and 440ppm.

I think that means this

 

[moe.red]

I'm going to translate this to Nesta's scale


129 PPM cal mag
Total PPM is 250

His total PPMS are between 600 and 700 adjusted for your scale. He is running almost 3X the salts you are.

I'm bad at math.

2X

 

[Nesta]

Man, shit got active around here!!! I appreciate the help! So my tap is about 100ppms. I am feeding GH trio at 45% + calmagic + armour si. Total PPMs 400 and Ec .9

 

[Observer]

Plant has been in catch up mode for weeks. I still believe your root system was stunted and not properly sized for the amount of green you have there.

If this plant were by itself and on its own timeline I would make sure all parameters for veg are perfect, do a major defol and see if I could encourage a bigger root ball as a percentage of the total plant. Hold off on flipping by a week or 2.

Roots will grow during flower a little bit but not like they do in veg.

It’s possible this has to do with being a reveg too. Hormones different than a typical seeding or clone. Biased away from root growth from early on.

The o2 didn’t help, but I think small roots happened before the air line issues

And sorry obs but I disagree that you need higher ppm. That’s the last thing I would do right now. It’s very normal to look at every problem as a deficiency and just need to add more n or p or whatever. It makes sense to us humans but I think th re is more to it and I think mulder would agree.

Yeah, That's why I clearly stated the 02 issue, and moe then likely stems from there.

But now it's recovering AND growing.

And the plant has purple stems it appears somewhat

It's nutrient deficient regardless, what you think or from what issue, and stressed.

 

[Observer]

If you think that’s it epsom salt foliar could confirm it. I never have to do that personally using cal mag and a happy root system.

A bit higher ph would help too if that is the sole problem

I’m not sold that’s the root cause but willing to learn together. And yes that was a root pun.

I would not go higher then 6.2, then P becomes less available?, he's at 5.8.

I run 5.5-5.7

 

[Observer]

If you think that’s it epsom salt foliar could confirm it. I never have to do that personally using cal mag and a happy root system.

A bit higher ph would help too if that is the sole problem

I’m not sold that’s the root cause but willing to learn together. And yes that was a root pun.

Yeah....because it's not needed when the ratio is correct, or proper root system uptake.

Foliar.

 

[Observer]

And sorry obs but I disagree that you need higher ppm. That’s the last thing I would do right now. It’s very normal to look at every problem as a deficiency and just need to add more n or p or whatever. It makes sense to us humans but I think th re is more to it and I think mulder would agree.

It's DWC not coco, it'll take the higher PPMs or it won't, or back to incorrect ratio?

 

[GrumpAzz]

Let's assume it is a mg deficiency and nesta confirms it with a foliar test. What is the advice to him?

OK so.. if new growth looks fine AFTER an epsom foliar treatment, I would suggest an added does of epsom to his nutrient regimen. A 50ppm boost from the epsom alone should keep new growth looking good.

That's assuming a foliar treatment helped.

I've never foliar sprayed, only add to my res when I see similar looking "faded" leaves.

 

[SSgrower]

I will jump in here, Moe these comments are on you! I also am hesitant to coach any growers here especially DWC guys, I am in coco, but do try the epsom foliar, and see, it shouldn't hurt, add to the res, Moe? I have never had to foliar either so I have no hands on knowledge except to spray just before lights off, under the leaves especially, love that especially, Back @Moe.Red

 

[moe.red]

I guess where I am going with all this is that the nute concentration is higher than most of us run already. For some of us a lot higher. Adding more probably will not help. The issue is to figure out why the plant is not using what it has access to.

This assumes the ratios are correct of course.

So my tap is about 100ppms. I am feeding GH trio at 45% + calmagic + armour si. Total PPMs 400 and Ec .9

Can you put some specifics on this please? Like 20ml cal, 25 ml grow, 25 ml micro.... whatever you are doing se we can see the ratios?


For my $.02, a weak / insufficient root system is the culprit.

A nice enzyme bath could kick them into gear and turn them white again.

 

[smoke]

And the plant has purple stems it appears somewhat

Could be P def or hereditary. Earlier picture makes me think deficiency

This assumes the ratios are correct of course.

Exactly

 

[moe.red]

OK so.. if new growth looks fine AFTER an epsom foliar treatment, I would suggest an added does of epsom to his nutrient regimen. A 50ppm boost from the epsom alone should keep new growth looking good.

That's assuming a foliar treatment helped.

I've never foliar sprayed, only add to my res when I see similar looking "faded" leaves.

The problem with changing ratios with less than perfect knowledge (our default position) is the potential to do more harm than good. Think lockouts.

What is the Mulder’s Chart? ​

Nutrient availability is impacted by a variety of factors, including soil pH and what form of the nutrient is applied. What is less well known, however, is that both macro- and micronutrients in the soil interact with each other to impact plant availability. Mulder’s Chart illustrates these relationships between nutrients and shows their tendency to antagonize each other in large amounts.

“The Mulder’s Chart is our best attempt at diagramming what is occurring in the soil. It shows the interactions and complexity of nutrients, how they hurt or help other nutrients getting into the plants,” says Nate Couillard, Senior Agronomist at Sound Agriculture.

It is not a prescriptive chart — it does not suggest amounts of nutrients or any specific course of action. Instead, it simply demonstrates the level of complexity growers are dealing with in their soil.

“The chart conveys that we’re trying to get our nutrients in balance, to harmonize in order to support soil operating in an optimized system,” says Nate.

Balanced and healthy soils support increased yield and improved plant health; when everything is functioning as intended, growers can achieve peak output. But just as growers can support a well-functioning system, there are things that can also throw the system off balance.

“There are things that we as growers can do that negatively impact the system too,” says Nate. “Just like a vehicle engine, when you tune it, you can cause additional problems.”



Example - Nitrogen can negatively impact the uptake of boron, potassium and copper, which are important nutrients for plant growth and health.

Here is the whole thing:




Seems counterintuitive since calcium and magnesium are packaged together, but they actually hate each other in terms of the interaction with plants. Overloading mg can actually lock out Ca and K, creating new issues.

This is why ratios matter. If the ratios are on point (and the plant is otherwise healthy) the total PPM is less important. Running at 300 PPM or 600 PPM will look the same for plant health for the most part if everything is in balance.


I know that's a lot. I hope it makes some sense.

 

[moe.red]

I will jump in here, Moe these comments are on you! I also am hesitant to coach any growers here especially DWC guys, I am in coco, but do try the epsom foliar, and see, it shouldn't hurt, add to the res, Moe? I have never had to foliar either so I have no hands on knowledge except to spray just before lights off, under the leaves especially, love that especially, Back @Moe.Red

Man, I know I go too deep for most folks sometimes. It's my hobby, and I love learning about it, so I tend to read everything I can.

I'm not always right, plants can be very humbling to us bright humans.

I would encourage everyone to post their thoughts tho. I promise not to bite your head off. And chances are I can learn something from you too. Different perspectives matter!

 

[GrumpAzz]

The problem with changing ratios with less than perfect knowledge (our default position) is the potential to do more harm than good. Think lockouts.

What is the Mulder’s Chart? ​

Nutrient availability is impacted by a variety of factors, including soil pH and what form of the nutrient is applied. What is less well known, however, is that both macro- and micronutrients in the soil interact with each other to impact plant availability. Mulder’s Chart illustrates these relationships between nutrients and shows their tendency to antagonize each other in large amounts.

“The Mulder’s Chart is our best attempt at diagramming what is occurring in the soil. It shows the interactions and complexity of nutrients, how they hurt or help other nutrients getting into the plants,” says Nate Couillard, Senior Agronomist at Sound Agriculture.

It is not a prescriptive chart — it does not suggest amounts of nutrients or any specific course of action. Instead, it simply demonstrates the level of complexity growers are dealing with in their soil.

“The chart conveys that we’re trying to get our nutrients in balance, to harmonize in order to support soil operating in an optimized system,” says Nate.

Balanced and healthy soils support increased yield and improved plant health; when everything is functioning as intended, growers can achieve peak output. But just as growers can support a well-functioning system, there are things that can also throw the system off balance.

“There are things that we as growers can do that negatively impact the system too,” says Nate. “Just like a vehicle engine, when you tune it, you can cause additional problems.”



Example - Nitrogen can negatively impact the uptake of boron, potassium and copper, which are important nutrients for plant growth and health.

Here is the whole thing:


View attachment 61411

Seems counterintuitive since calcium and magnesium are packaged together, but they actually hate each other in terms of the interaction with plants. Overloading mg can actually lock out Ca and K, creating new issues.

This is why ratios matter. If the ratios are on point (and the plant is otherwise healthy) the total PPM is less important. Running at 300 PPM or 600 PPM will look the same for plant health for the most part if everything is in balance.


I know that's a lot. I hope it makes some sense.

I'm not sure who said it, but I was under the impression that you couldn't really overdo magnesium as long as you don't get crazy with it. That could be why my last plant had what looked to be a potassium deficiency towards the end. I may have overreacted to an initial mag def.

Assuming it IS mag def that Nesta is running into, what would your advice be? Just a foliar treatment? Or is there a specific ratio you try to hit with the magnesium? I'm not saying that's it for certain, but what if?

 

[GrumpAzz]

I would encourage everyone to post their thoughts tho. I promise not to bite your head off. And chances are I can learn something from you too. Different perspectives matter!

The main reason why I kept quiet was because you've already somewhat taken this project under your wing. I know during my first run, I just had to pick one of you guys for help when multiple people came in with conflicting advice. You and Aqua were my crutch.

 

[moe.red]

I'm not sure who said it, but I was under the impression that you couldn't really overdo magnesium as long as you don't get crazy with it. That could be why my last plant had what looked to be a potassium deficiency towards the end. I may have overreacted to an initial mag def.

Assuming it IS mag def that Nesta is running into, what would your advice be? Just a foliar treatment? Or is there a specific ratio you try to hit with the magnesium? I'm not saying that's it for certain, but what if?

Yes, you can overdo mg.

For Nesta, my advice is to get the plant back on the fairway and make sure the nutes are balanced. Lower PPM for now to encourage more water than less in uptake. Get that girl breathing, and get those roots back in gear.

I've had good luck with Hygrozyme doing essentially a root exfoliation and reset. I put the mixture in a 5 gallon bucket and swish the netpot around in it for a few minutes. The roots will come out a lot more white. Should kick in new cell growth for the roots as an after effect.