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Nesta’s DWC Attempt

Nesta

Nesta

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Whats up everyone! Sorry, I have been MIA as of late. Started a new job and work has been crazy, on top of the kids sports schedule. My last run had major issues and I found out my pH pen was way off. Keep them babies calibrated! I harvested those plants last week and I’m now starting a new run, this time giving DWC a try. Thanks for the nudge @SweetLeafGrow! So, I have a single Gary Payton clone, running in a PAH 8 Gal tub. Alongside the DWC, I will have Gary Payton, Trop Cherry, and Pluto running in coco.

Right now everything is under an HLG 100 V2. Once they get a bit bigger I will throw them under the Phlizon FD 8000.

I’m currently running Canna Coco A&B in the DWC along with Fulvic and Southern AG GFF. I figured I’d use up the Coco nutes on hand and then switch it up to Hydro specific nutes. Changed the res today and am sitting at 430 PPM, .9 ec and 5.8 PH. Twin airstones that come with the bucket are running inside.

I’m new to DWC so all feedback and suggestions are welcome! This clone was taken 3 1/2 weeks in a flower, which is why it doesn’t look so great and you can see is starting to reveg. You can’t tell in the pic, but the roots are just now touching the top of the water.

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Do you plan on staying in water/hydro?
A meter beyond your pH pen like a blue lab Guardian or HM digital hydro master [ HM 500] will make life and stability easier.
 
steamroller said:
Do you plan on staying in water/hydro?
A meter beyond your pH pen like a blue lab Guardian or HM digital hydro master [ HM 500] will make life and stability easier.
Click to expand...
That all depends on how this goes! If all goes well, I would like to try a 4 plant RDWC next. I definitely need to upgrade my monitoring equipment!
 
Awesome, this is going to be fun. How many gallons of water are you able to get in the system? We had talked about using smaller 3.75" net pots and this is the reason I like to use these is because it allows significantly more water in the system which is a plus.

I'm glad I got my feet wet in the single site system. For some reason, the 4 site system has been a bit of a challenge even though you would think its exactly the same. I also got a new light at the same time and has been a learning curve with that too so could be some of the cause of my issues. The Cement Shoes will hopefully be the grow that I dial this system in with.

I've been pretty happy with my HM 500's and they are significantly cheaper than the Blue Lab.
 
SweetLeafGrow said:
Awesome, this is going to be fun. How many gallons of water are you able to get in the system? We had talked about using smaller 3.75" net pots and this is the reason I like to use these is because it allows significantly more water in the system which is a plus.

I'm glad I got my feet wet in the single site system. For some reason, the 4 site system has been a bit of a challenge even though you would think its exactly the same. I also got a new light at the same time and has been a learning curve with that too so could be some of the cause of my issues. The Cement Shoes will hopefully be the grow that I dial this system in with.

I've been pretty happy with my HM 500's and they are significantly cheaper than the Blue Lab.
Click to expand...
Right on SLG! Thanks for stopping by. I had already committed to the 8” net pot that came with the system, so I had to ride it out. Right now I’m fitting 5 gallons into the 8 gallon bucket. It’s probably not the worst thing in the world because I’m so used to mixing 5 gallons of nutrients that it may make this process easier for the first go around. I plan on running the 3.75 net pot going forward.
 
Here we are about a week and a half later. So far so good. Roots are now hitting the water. Res is running 500ppm, 1ec and 5.8 PH. Will get a shot of the root on the next update. Shes growing a bit sideways, but I think thats because the clone was taken so late in flower. Stay high my friends.
 

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Whats up everyone??? Long time no check in for me. Still cruising along on this DWC journey though. Was out of town for about 10 days and just did a change. Growth has been great, and so far the Rez has held fairly steady in terms of PH.

Last change
New Res: 5/3/24
440 PPM/.9 EC/5.8ph
Outgoing Res: 5/13/24
490 PPM/1EC/5.8ph

Does that mean they are drinking since ppm in remaining res went up? Anything I should be concerned about numbers wise?

The roots seem a little discolored, but I’m not sure if that’s because of the nutrient mix. They seem healthy otherwise. I’m flying completely blind so any feedback is appreciated!

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I have been diluting the Southern AG 1:20 with water and dosing with 1ml/g of solution.
 
I'm not so concerned with what your res numbers were/are but rather, what is happening in the water since. I take a daily log of pH and ppm, sometimes several times a day to see trends in both along with whether she is drinking or not.

I'd be curious what is happening in the water on a day to day basis. That is where you get your clues as to what is going on. Are you familiar with the chart I use Nesta?

2519-8360d89e04c44448e616fff96720b828.jpg


Study this chart and see if you can apply what it's saying by logging your daily numbers of what is happening in the water. If you have any questions, let me know.
 
Hi Nesta,

Looks like you have 2 airstones right?

The dark areas on the roots where they bunch up is definitely a colony. The hope is that it is Bacillus amyloliquefaciens from AG.

If it is, you are in great shape. AG is doing it's job. If not, it begins to smell, plants seem to be starving, roots become brittle or shough off, anything like that and you probably have a bad colony. O2 to the root zone is key for building a good colony. All the good stuff is aerobic. The bad stuff tends to be anerobic and thrives when water is stagnant.

When starting a new grow from scratch and using bennies, the goal is to out-compete any other crap like pythium. Pythium actually grows faster than the bacillus strains, so the way you start the grow is meaningful. For me, I start with a sterile setup with H2O2 and run for a couple days, then dump the res, refill, and do a double or triple dose of bennies. They also need something to eat and grow on, so put plants in at that time. The plants will feed the bacteria by excreting carbs. Getting that colony set up first is the way AG prevents root rot, the good stuff pushes out and starves the bad stuff.

You will get other helper bacteria without trying. There are other waste products in there like with the nitrogen cycle in a fish tank. Decaying plant matter will produce ammonia. That gets converted to nitrite then nitrates with 2 other non-bacillius bacteria that will find their way in thru the air. That's a good thing, the plants can then use the nitrates as food, completing the cycle.

Once you get a feel for the beneficial bacteria and how to grow them, you can almost forget about them and just focus on the plants. There is a bit of a learning curve tho.

Keeping res temps low is another helpful tip. Without a chiller, there are a few things you can do. Something reflective or white on top of the black bucket will help. Making sure your air pump is pulling from a zone of air as cold as you can manage will help (make sure the pump is above the water line tho) In a pinch, if temps get too high (68 - 72 is ideal, 76 is getting hot, 80 will severely limit O2 in the root zone) you can encourage evaporation to cool things off.

Good luck Kemosabe.
 
Moe.Red said:
Hi Nesta,

Looks like you have 2 airstones right?

The dark areas on the roots where they bunch up is definitely a colony. The hope is that it is Bacillus amyloliquefaciens from AG.

If it is, you are in great shape. AG is doing it's job. If not, it begins to smell, plants seem to be starving, roots become brittle or shough off, anything like that and you probably have a bad colony. O2 to the root zone is key for building a good colony. All the good stuff is aerobic. The bad stuff tends to be anerobic and thrives when water is stagnant.

When starting a new grow from scratch and using bennies, the goal is to out-compete any other crap like pythium. Pythium actually grows faster than the bacillus strains, so the way you start the grow is meaningful. For me, I start with a sterile setup with H2O2 and run for a couple days, then dump the res, refill, and do a double or triple dose of bennies. They also need something to eat and grow on, so put plants in at that time. The plants will feed the bacteria by excreting carbs. Getting that colony set up first is the way AG prevents root rot, the good stuff pushes out and starves the bad stuff.

You will get other helper bacteria without trying. There are other waste products in there like with the nitrogen cycle in a fish tank. Decaying plant matter will produce ammonia. That gets converted to nitrite then nitrates with 2 other non-bacillius bacteria that will find their way in thru the air. That's a good thing, the plants can then use the nitrates as food, completing the cycle.

Once you get a feel for the beneficial bacteria and how to grow them, you can almost forget about them and just focus on the plants. There is a bit of a learning curve tho.

Keeping res temps low is another helpful tip. Without a chiller, there are a few things you can do. Something reflective or white on top of the black bucket will help. Making sure your air pump is pulling from a zone of air as cold as you can manage will help (make sure the pump is above the water line tho) In a pinch, if temps get too high (68 - 72 is ideal, 76 is getting hot, 80 will severely limit O2 in the root zone) you can encourage evaporation to cool things off.

Good luck Kemosabe.
Click to expand...
@Moe.Red, my res temps are low 70s right now but will spike over the summer.I Plan to upgrade to a 4 site RDWC system from PAH soon that has a 13 gal res. What size chiller do you recommend for a 13 gal res?
 
Nesta said:
@Moe.Red, my res temps are low 70s right now but will spike over the summer.I Plan to upgrade to a 4 site RDWC system from PAH soon that has a 13 gal res. What size chiller do you recommend for a 13 gal res?
Click to expand...
So 4 sites at 13 plus 13 gal res, correct?

If using 8" netpots, probably max 25 gallons in system. Personally I would switch to 3.5" and get the extra few inches in water level. If you do that, you will have to cut your own holes in the lids, but PA Gary would do a custom thing I think. In all my different system builds, I have found 3.5" netpots with coco to be the best overall.

I do not know your geography. If I was in the south I'd probably go with a 1/4 hp Active Aqua. If you are staying with a 4 site and no plans to go more volume or are in the north, 1/10 will be sufficient. The price difference is not significant, but power usage is higher if that is important to you.

I would also add an auto top off personally to keep the max water volume in the system continually. SLG has a different approach there either will work. An auto top off is nothing more than a float valve


and a 2nd res higher up than the first. The 2nd res can be filled with nute mix or RO. If using RO like Smoke and I, the chart in post 15 only partially applies. I can explain in detail if you decide to go that route. This adds some cheap protection for when you need to leave for a week and makes things more consistent. Maximizing water volume aids in stability.

I also find it super helpful to grow seeds or clones in a separate tub with holes in the top for the 3.5" netpots. Get the plants germed and sorted in a little system, including inoculation of bennies. Then just move the whole netpot to your RDWC when ready. If you do it right, you can use your RDWC for flowering only if that appeals to you.
 
Habosabin said:
Are you doing sterile or microbes for algae control in res?
Click to expand...
That's an interesting question. I've seen lots of people talk about algae control in hydro. I've never gotten any green at all except on the tops of rockwool cubes used for germination.

Microbes will not control algae. Sterile will because it kills everything. Think swimming pool.

I have run grow after grow in all kinds of conditions, and I do not even put a lid on the res ever. I want max gas exchange. No algae. Obviously no light in the plant sites because roots don't like it, so no algae can grow there anyhow. Autotrophs need light to exist.

With proper flow (10 - 15 turns per hour is your goal, so in your case a 250 - 400 gph pump, or a larger variable speed) and proper air, green algae just never gets a hold in the water column. I've seen diatoms (a brownish - reddish form of algae) a lot on startup for the first week or 2, but they die off pretty quick once the lids go on the plant sites and grow lights are blocked from hitting the water. If starting with RO, they don't even show up for the most part because they need silica to form the cell wall.

If you do get algae on the top of your media when the plant is small, it will die off when it gets in the shade from the canopy.

Sorry if I'm going too deep here, I get not everyone cares about hydro to this level!
 
Sorry. I was going to go with the kit that has 4 - 8 gallon buckets and and a 13 gallon res.

The rest of your post makes perfect sense. SLG had explained the smaller netpot when I started and that makes sense. I was thinking 8 gallon buckets would give me more head room since I will be flowering in a 4x4 tent.
 
8 = 13" high
13 = 18 5/8" high

so ~5 inches difference.

Personally I'd go for more water volume and scrog the plants if they are too tall.

There is also a school of thought that you can go directly into flower from seedling and skip veg. Bandit420 is doing that successfully. Or maybe only veg for a week or 2.

The more water volume you have, the easier it is to find and maintain an equilibrium. Also, root growing will displace water making your water volume even smaller. I have completely filled a 13 gal with roots before. Lemme find a pic.

It's all a balancing act, do what makes sense for you.
 
Moe.Red said:
That's an interesting question. I've seen lots of people talk about algae control in hydro. I've never gotten any green at all except on the tops of rockwool cubes used for germination.

Microbes will not control algae. Sterile will because it kills everything. Think swimming pool.

I have run grow after grow in all kinds of conditions, and I do not even put a lid on the res ever. I want max gas exchange. No algae. Obviously no light in the plant sites because roots don't like it, so no algae can grow there anyhow. Autotrophs need light to exist.

With proper flow (10 - 15 turns per hour is your goal, so in your case a 250 - 400 gph pump, or a larger variable speed) and proper air, green algae just never gets a hold in the water column. I've seen diatoms (a brownish - reddish form of algae) a lot on startup for the first week or 2, but they die off pretty quick once the lids go on the plant sites and grow lights are blocked from hitting the water. If starting with RO, they don't even show up for the most part because they need silica to form the cell wall.

If you do get algae on the top of your media when the plant is small, it will die off when it gets in the shade from the canopy.

Sorry if I'm going too deep here, I get not everyone cares about hydro to this level!
Click to expand...
I probably should have used a different word. My res would get this brown thick slimy growth that stuck to the pump inlets. Didn’t have luck using sterile. Hydro guard did the trick for me.
 
Habosabin said:
I probably should have used a different word. My res would get this brown thick slimy growth that stuck to the pump inlets. Didn’t have luck using sterile. Hydro guard did the trick for me.
Click to expand...
I know what you are talking about. I've had good luck using enzymes on that stuff. Tried running a prefilter too. That was more hassle than it was worth to me.

You get lots of different colonies when you use great white and similar products too. Not just BB, but fungi. They can be beneficial too until they clog your pump.
 
For those running GH Flora series, im curious what your protocol is? Mine arrived today, and the Canna Coco nutes I have been running in my DEC will be just for Coco.
 
GH flora series
In Veg, RO water plus calmag to 180 ppm then the flora series added at ratios of 3-2-1(3 parts grow ,2 parts micro, 1 part bloom) to around 350 ppm,

I feed them daily and only feed them what they eat daily.

Ppm's in veg usually stay 350 to 400 with a 7 week veg
 
I use the GH trio and use the ratios on their chart for whatever stage the plant is in but never use their total PPM numbers, way too hot. I've been using about 100 ppm cal/mag in RO water but may have to up that on that Crescendo strain, which seems to want more than what I have been normally doing.

I'm not using an auto top off res like Moe and Smoke so I'm using that chart to read the water to tell me what to do with nutrients once I have the res built. I usually try to start off conservatively low on the final ppm of the res, come in low and raise it up if the plant is asking for more. When I amend with nutrients, I use those same ratios and then regularly scheduled res changes based on the GH feeding chart and when the ratios change there. Ideally, I want a single res change during veg, and then 3 or 4 res changes during flower to reset those ratios based on the GH feeding chart.
 
I switched to the gh powder. One for veg and one for flower. Makes it simpler for me to bring the res to a particular ppm with minimal mixing(compared to 3 part) The results were also good. I can’t really tell the difference between flora and this.
 
Habosabin said:
I switched to the gh powder. One for veg and one for flower. Makes it simpler for me to bring the res to a particular ppm with minimal mixing(compared to 3 part) The results were also good. I can’t really tell the difference between flora and this.
Click to expand...
Right on, I did not know they had a dry version. Does sound like it simplifies things.
 
This is such a weird thing - nutes and levels. Skip to the end if you just want a starting point and don't care about details. <Skip>

If you are still here, we can take a deeper look as to why what works for some will not work for others. So many variables. Allow me to pull up my soap box. 🧼

The amount of salt (total PPM) in your res will be very dependent on your environment, lights, and genetics. So the GH chart that shows 1000PPM+ will be hot for most growers on this forum. We are not folks who put a solo cup on a windowsill and try to grow a few grams. Most of us have proper lighting, RH and Temp control etc.

Light and VPD will set the amount of transpiration. Quite often in hydro, transpiration is very high compared to soil. If you have active means of dehumidification to keep the water out of the air to make room for new water vapor, transpiration remains high. If you have a closed grow and no dehumidification the RH will approach 100% and the plants will shut down because there is no room for more water to exit stomata.

Your setup will be on that spectrum. You can maintain proper VPD, you ignore it, or somewhere in-between.

If you can stay in the right VPD range, your total PPM in the res will need to be lower.

Think of it this way - lets say your 4 hydro plants
require 1 mg of N per day at their current stage.​
will drink 4 gallons per day​
you will need .25mg/gal N​
​
Now they need 1 mg N per day​
plants drink 1 gal water per day​
you will need 1 mg/gal N​
​
In those 2 examples, the top one represents 250PPM total in the res, the second one is 1000PPM.

Total oversimplification to make a point - protocol must be fine tuned to match your grow.


The primary reason for hydro - faster growth especially in veg - happens when we remove road blocks. For example, we do not need to wait for soil microbes to break down organics into a molecule the plant can uptake. That's the first speed bump out of the way.

Your grow will continue to have speed bumps to maximum potential growth. Could be light. Could be VPD. Could be CO2, or O2 to the roots. The way you address each of these setpoints (or don't) will all have an impact on both the overall PPM needed, as well as the ratios.


</Skip>

If you want a starting point to begin your tuning process, you could do much worse than this:

smoke said:
GH flora series
In Veg, RO water plus calmag to 180 ppm then the flora series added at ratios of 3-2-1(3 parts grow ,2 parts micro, 1 part bloom) to around 350 ppm,

I feed them daily and only feed them what they eat daily.

Ppm's in veg usually stay 350 to 400 with a 7 week veg
Click to expand...

Now in your case Nesta, I would not consider a 7 week veg. You are going for harvestable bud in a small space, not the stuff you can run thru a sawmill and get 2x4's like @smoke.

If you want to dissect the GH labels I'm happy to do so.

I would not recommend anything but GH trio, your cal-mag of choice, PH up and down, your bennies, and potentially a PH buffer (that has other benefits like MSA, strong stalks) like potassium silicate (most rdwc growers use Agsil16 or similar)

In one grow you will get a feel for this lineup. It has everything you will need. Try to avoid the highly marketed additives like bloom ball buster and massive stroke bud maker or whatever the kids are selling these days. Trust in the basics and your plants and wallet will thank you.

Now, git 'er done, post up pics as you go, and we can try to help guide you thru the learning curve of RDWC. I figure one grow is all you need to get hooked.
 
Last edited:
Moe.Red said:
This is such a weird thing - nutes and levels. Skip to the end if you just want a starting point and don't care about details. <Skip>

If you are still here, we can take a deeper look as to why what works for some will not work for others. So many variables. Allow me to pull up my soap box. 🧼

The amount of salt (total PPM) in your res will be very dependent on your environment, lights, and genetics. So the GH chart that shows 1000PPM+ will be hot for most growers on this forum. We are not folks who put a solo cup on a windowsill and try to grow a few grams. Most of us have proper lighting, RH and Temp control etc.

Light and VPD will set the amount of transpiration. Quite often in hydro, transpiration is very high compared to soil. If you have active means of dehumidification to keep the water out of the air to make room for new water vapor, transpiration remains high. If you have a closed grow and no dehumidification the RH will approach 100% and the plants will shut down because there is no room for more water to exit stomata.

Your setup will be on that spectrum. You can maintain proper VPD, you ignore it, or somewhere in-between.

If you can stay in the right VPD range, your total PPM in the res will need to be lower.

Think of it this way - lets say your 4 hydro plants
require 1 mg of N per day at their current stage.​
will drink 4 gallons per day​
you will need .25mg/gal N​
​
Now they need 1 mg N per day​
plants drink 1 gal water per day​
you will need 1 mg/gal N​
​
In those 2 examples, the top one represents 250PPM total in the res, the second one is 1000PPM.

Total oversimplification to make a point - protocol must be fine tuned to match your grow.


The primary reason for hydro - faster growth especially in veg - happens when we remove road blocks. For example, we do not need to wait for soil microbes to break down organics into a molecule the plant can uptake. That's the first speed bump out of the way.

Your grow will continue to have speed bumps to maximum potential growth. Could be light. Could be VPD. Could be CO2, or O2 to the roots. The way you address each of these setpoints (or don't) will all have an impact on both the overall PPM needed, as well as the ratios.


</Skip>

If you want a starting point to begin your tuning process, you could do much worse than this:



Now in your case Nesta, I would not consider a 7 week veg. You are going for harvestable bud in a small space, not the stuff you can run thru a sawmill and get 2x4's like @smoke.

If you want to dissect the GH labels I'm happy to do so.

I would not recommend anything but GH trio, your cal-mag of choice, PH up and down, your bennies, and potentially a PH buffer (that has other benefits like MSA, strong stalks) like potassium silicate (most rdwc growers use Agsil16 or similar)

In one grow you will get a feel for this lineup. It has everything you will need. Try to avoid the highly marketed additives like bloom ball buster and massive stroke bud maker or whatever the kids are selling these days. Trust in the basics and your plants and wallet will thank you.

Now, git 'er done, post up pics as you go, and we can try to help guide you thru the learning curve of RDWC. I figure one grow is all you need to get hooked.
Click to expand...
This is F’n awesome Moe. Thank you so much. Going to keep it simple this run as suggested. Will post along the way. Thanks for all your help guys!
 
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