Grump's Dalato Grow 🌱

[Aqua Man]

Diodes need a minimum power to illuminate almost all LED start at 10% power the others are higher.

I’ll explain after my meeting

 

[Aqua Man]

So diodes require a certain amount of input and the ballast requires a certain amount of output to illuminate them.

Now the bigger the ballast the more that 10% is. A 500w light would be about 50w but a 1000w light would be about 100w.

Then spectrum red is the most efficient so even at the same wattage it produces more ppfd than other diodes. This is why many manufacturers overdo the red. So they can boast about efficiency.

IMO most of the recommendations from manufacturers are consistent with running elevated co2 levels. Many lights actually state that but not all.

So @GrumpAzz what height are you running?

 

[Bandit420]

i believe you have fancy equipment to measure your DLI? adjust your light hieght according to your DLI. for seedlings keep it around 15-25 DLI and that should work it out to be around 18"-24" above the seedlings.

I have said fancy equipment

This is why I said 1-3-6 is pretty much like having the light turned off



And this was taken at 12" above target just so I could get a reading out of it. At 24" it was zeros across the board. I used two SS550 to replicate his 1100.
You're right he needs a DLI of 15-20 at this stage and it's only 0.7
PPFD should be up around 300-400 and it's only at 15.5

 

[Aqua Man]

I have said fancy equipment

This is why I said 1-3-6 is pretty much like having the light turned off

View attachment 67312

And this was taken at 12" above target just so I could get a reading out of it. At 24" it was zeros across the board. I used two SS550 to replicate his 1100.
You're right he needs a DLI of 15-20 at this stage and it's only 0.7
PPFD should be up around 300-400 and it's only at 15.5

what is the diode difference in number?

 

[Bandit420]

Is yours the 500 or the same 1000?

The SS1100 is two SS500s built into one light. If I link two SS550s to each other I pretty much have an 1100. Or when I run all 3 it's then a 1650 but I can widen them out for more coverage and lowered height

 

[Aqua Man]

@GrumpAzz how high is your light? Look at the recommendations here. And it also says higher if you have reflective walls.

All of these factors need to be looked at. Also 2-550 is not the same as 1-1100. It may sound like it but its not.

 

[Aqua Man]

The SS1100 is two SS500s built into one light. If I link two SS550s to each other I pretty much have an 1100. Or when I run all 3 it's then a 1650 but I can widen them out for more coverage and lowered height

I have to disagree bro its not the same

 

[Aqua Man]

Remember i said as high as you can go? Thats for a reason.

If you can reach that height you can try to run recommend but even that may be a touch much in a tent.

Always best to go lower a touch.

Spectral ratio is huge bro. Go by their ratios. If anything a touch more blue just to combat the stretch for now.

The red will cause stretch but keep the ratios very close to what they recommend. This is soo important I can’t stress it enough

 

[GrumpAzz]

So upon opening the tent this morning, the two leaners have gotten worse.

I know @Bandit420 and @Stoneyluv are saying more light but I'm inclined to believe @Aqua Man and I'll explain why.

For one.. bumping it up for a few hours last night seems to have exasperated the lean.
Two.. the one I removed from the tent, two days ago, has began recovering in the dome. When it got removed, it was laying flat against the lid. Now, two days later, it's lifted itself back up and is back to supporting itself.



The two in the tent are looking like that one did the day before I removed it. I guess one of them is worse than the other, but they're acting the same.


Then there's the outlier. This was the first to sprout and has been going great.

So @GrumpAzz what height are you running?

I'm at 48" and it's as high as I can go. I know... headroom. I'm way overpowered but I bought this light with future expansion in mind. I'll be able to keep the veg height pretty close to 48 but the stretch is gonna get me.

If I wasn't hoping to move in the future, I'd be cutting holes in my floor and do what @Cool_Beans did. Brilliant idea.

keep the ratios very close to what they recommend. This is soo important I can’t stress it enough

So 4:5:9 is as low as I can go and still keep their ratio. I'll set it there while we sort this out.

-------

Sorry if I don't keep up. I'm smoking my post work doob and will be headed to bed after a shower. 8th 12 hour night shift in a row so I'm draggin' a bit.

 

[Aqua Man]

They lean like that to try and avoid light. Thats why i feel this is the case. Seen it many times and done it myself.

Imo plants don’t lie and i ALWAYS trust the plants over numbers. For VPD, light, nutrients etc.

 

[Bandit420]

@GrumpAzz how high is your light? Look at the recommendations here. And it also says higher if you have reflective walls.

All of these factors need to be looked at. Also 2-550 is not the same as 1-1100. It may sound like it but its not.

View attachment 67315

This is old info that has not been updated since 2016 and it was made for the gen 1 light. Recommended spectrums were actually based off comparisons to HID. Gen 2 lights are beyond that with upgraded diodes and crisper whites that don't look like HPS anymore but more like CMH.

I have to disagree bro its not the same

We ran tests back in 2016 comparing output of two 550s mounted to each other vs a 1100. The 1100 and paired combo needed to be much higher than a single 550, that a no brainer. And the paired combo was just as powerful as the 1100 matching up like they were sisters.
However a middle ground was found in that the 1110 model was built too compacted and needed a much larger gap between the two panels so it didn't need to be hung so high.
That's where the conclusion was made that two 550s were actually better because power could be reduced and the lights lowered to still cover a 3x5 footprint without bleaching or stress

 

[Aqua Man]

This is old info that has not been updated since 2016 and it was made for the gen 1 light. Recommended spectrums were actually based off comparisons to HID. Gen 2 lights are beyond that with upgraded diodes and crisper whites that don't look like HPS anymore but more like CMH.



We ran tests back in 2016 comparing output of two 550s mounted to each other vs a 1100. The 1100 and paired combo needed to be much higher than a single 550, that a no brainer. And the paired combo was just as powerful as the 1100 matching up like they were sisters.
However a middle ground was found in that the 1110 model was built too compacted and needed a much larger gap between the two panels so it didn't need to be hung so high.
That's where the conclusion was made that two 550s were actually better because power could be reduced and the lights lowered to still cover a 3x5 footprint without bleaching or stress

Thats exactly what i was saying the 1100 NEEDS to be higher.

Im not sure what you are saying as outdated or disputing about what i said.

The hanging height is?

 

[Aqua Man]

This is old info that has not been updated since 2016 and it was made for the gen 1 light. Recommended spectrums were actually based off comparisons to HID. Gen 2 lights are beyond that with upgraded diodes and crisper whites that don't look like HPS anymore but more like CMH.



We ran tests back in 2016 comparing output of two 550s mounted to each other vs a 1100. The 1100 and paired combo needed to be much higher than a single 550, that a no brainer. And the paired combo was just as powerful as the 1100 matching up like they were sisters.
However a middle ground was found in that the 1110 model was built too compacted and needed a much larger gap between the two panels so it didn't need to be hung so high.
That's where the conclusion was made that two 550s were actually better because power could be reduced and the lights lowered to still cover a 3x5 footprint without bleaching or stress

Of anything g2 diodes are more efficient and put out more light per watt and therefore would need to be higher

 

[Aqua Man]

This is old info that has not been updated since 2016 and it was made for the gen 1 light. Recommended spectrums were actually based off comparisons to HID. Gen 2 lights are beyond that with upgraded diodes and crisper whites that don't look like HPS anymore but more like CMH.



We ran tests back in 2016 comparing output of two 550s mounted to each other vs a 1100. The 1100 and paired combo needed to be much higher than a single 550, that a no brainer. And the paired combo was just as powerful as the 1100 matching up like they were sisters.
However a middle ground was found in that the 1110 model was built too compacted and needed a much larger gap between the two panels so it didn't need to be hung so high.
That's where the conclusion was made that two 550s were actually better because power could be reduced and the lights lowered to still cover a 3x5 footprint without bleaching or stress

Also i absolutely agree 2 lights of equal wattage provides more even coverage. I have been saying that for 10years since back to the first LED boards

 

[Aqua Man]

This is old info that has not been updated since 2016 and it was made for the gen 1 light. Recommended spectrums were actually based off comparisons to HID. Gen 2 lights are beyond that with upgraded diodes and crisper whites that don't look like HPS anymore but more like CMH.



We ran tests back in 2016 comparing output of two 550s mounted to each other vs a 1100. The 1100 and paired combo needed to be much higher than a single 550, that a no brainer. And the paired combo was just as powerful as the 1100 matching up like they were sisters.
However a middle ground was found in that the 1110 model was built too compacted and needed a much larger gap between the two panels so it didn't need to be hung so high.
That's where the conclusion was made that two 550s were actually better because power could be reduced and the lights lowered to still cover a 3x5 footprint without bleaching or stress

Also this is off their website today and was last updated june 2019. This is not the 2016 info you are referring to.

 

[Bandit420]

Thats exactly what i was saying the 1100 NEEDS to be higher.

Im not sure what you are saying as outdated or disputing about what i said.

The hanging height is?

I think what you're missing is the spectrum at 1-3-6 and hung high is going to grow a limpy plant with such a low DLI. 1-3-6 is 82 watts and even as strong as a light the 1100 can be, 80 watts and hung too high is like having the parking brake on and trying to gun it.
Even CLWs rec for seedling is 39-49-99. Forget about height but there's an ocean wide gap between 1-3-6 and 39-49-99.

That 1-3-6 spectrum with a paired 550 which matches an 1100, could only get a reading at 12" and that was 0.7. Couldn't even hit 1.0 and I use 6.0 on germination alone. Higher than that there was no measurable reading. It should be up to around 15 right now. When I use a DLI of 6.0 on freshly germinated plants it takes 30x3 to get that at 20". Two 550s at around 40" high needed to be at 70x 3 to get over 15 DLI.
I really cannot see how 1-3-6 is too much light, so much so that plants want to hide from it, but I wont stop anybody from believeing that especially when it's not my garden. I just provide my experience that says otherwise.

The info CLW provides on the Solar System series height is outdated and really it was done when they were still trying to figure out exactly what the light could and could not do. From 2016 thru 2019 info was a void. The blog you see today now includes spectrums and is regards to Gen 1 lights. Shortly after that blog and bleached plants were drawing compliants, the Gen 2 light came out.
Scroll down even further and you'll see UV recs and reflective wall info and those are laughable. The UV is inapplicable in that format and reflective walls are perhaps one of the biggest lies ever told to growers they need.
What they've created in that blog is basically a sale pitch with some appeasment mixed in.

Before that blog post much of it was guesswork and it still hasn't been updated for gen 2 as they've pretty much moved on into the Vertical series, green house series lights, and consultation to commercial farms. The Solar System and Solar Xtreme lights have become an after thought more or less, partly due to COB and blurple panels not being so desirable as they were 5 years ago.

Between 2016 and 2019 there were no recommended spectrums and we had to figure it out. Then when they did come up with recs they pointed more to HID than LED because test growers were using all sorts of spectrums and getting great results far from what CLW was saying to use.
What CLW has posted in blogs is an exercise in generalities more than anything and some of it is downright misinformation, dogma, and bro science.
There's actually better info in CLW case study videos and tester reports and even there you see they don't really follow CLW recs or they do then have to adjust far from them. There's even a video of 1100s maxed out and down on ripe plants at less than 30". Something CLW says not to do even though the CEO is there talking to the grower doing it. The CEO is more or less learning from that case study what his lights are capable of doing as if he has no idea how to offer input or suggestions.

This is why I do everything independent from what a manufacture provides. Even Growers House found results differing form what CLW was posted about Solar System lights.
Today I take info provided by CLW as info yeah but it's far from gospel. Really the only info I use from them is true power, heat output BTU, and known specs but as far as how to use them, their info is out of date.
In addition, there's a learning curve with these lights that's not found in CLW blogs. There really is no substitute for actually running these lights and seeing what they can and cannot do first hand compared to reading their spec charts or blogs .

The nuances to using these lights is really much more than red white and blue. It's blending all three to be useful depending on stage.
So a red balanced out with blue does not necessarily mean more stretching. Side by side comparisons actually showed no stretch but a proliferation of root and plant biomass. You'd really have to crank up the red to see any kind of stretching like that in Grumps babies and his red is only at 1.
The sweet spot is getting it to a true blurple and running a height that gets that. The more off balance, the more the height needs to be tinkered with.
For example here's the results of 70x3 at 40 inches above target with a 550. There's actually two plots and one is not shown but is this where if it was an 1100, I'd keep it at 40" but reduce it to 35x3 and take height measurements until it's at 25DLI.
The only reason for the 40" height is to get spread over the footprint. If the footprint was only say 2'x2', I'd lower it to 24" and drop the output to 40x3 to get that 25 DLI
The 550 over this plots is powered up high, all colors are in balance, and with a height getting a good blend, there's no stretching on the 10 day old herd of plants.

Of anything g2 diodes are more efficient and put out more light per watt and therefore would need to be higher

Gen 2 is 5% more efficient overall. Gen1 lights actually need to be hung higher than Gen 2 due to the overly concentrated far and infra red that can cause bleaching in flower and stress during early growth stages

 

[Aqua Man]

1. I did not recommend a spectral ratio infact i suggested sticking to the manufacturer recommendations but lower because he didn’t have the height requirement and slightly more blue.

2. There is no comparison to intensity when you have 2-550 spread out vs 1100 i stand by this and you also said this after.

3. The efficiency increase means inequality it needs to be higher. Reflective walls ABSOLUTELY reflect light this is an UNEQUIVOCAL FACT. If you want to debate it further i can point you to countless studies on the matter.

4.The claims of max light and lower distance. Sure you can if you have a dialed in room with co2 and genetics that are from areas of higher elevation. Gentics plays a large role in that and so plant health. YOU CANNOT JUST MAKE BLANKET STATEMENTS LIKE THAT.

5. You want to talk about spectrum im extremely well versed and understand exactly what im saying. There is no nuances with these lights or any other tunable light for that matter. ITS NOT COMPLICATED WHEN YOU UNDERSTAND IT.

6. I completely understand DLI and will state again for the record NUMBERS MEAN SHIT. They are a ballpart of where to start. THEY DO NOT DEFINE LIMITING AMOUNT ETC. THE PLANTS DO.

7. You cannot compare your grow room verses his grow room VARIABLES change. Every single parameter affects how much light a plant can handle. Blind comparison is absurd.

 

[Aqua Man]

100% those seedling were getting to much light for the conditions they are in. Thats not to say they couldn’t handle more if conditions were different. Just because a plant in another situation can handle X amount of light does NOT mean that another plant WILL be able to.

To suggest that is absurd. Tge plant is leaning to avoid it. The leaf edges are spikey and it transpiring hard as can be visually seen. The VPD is to high exasperating the situation.

Understand im NOT SAYING A PLANT CANNOT HANDLE THAT MUCH LIGHT.

AIm saying those plants CANNOT handle that much light

 

[Zen_seeker]

A lot of useful information here.

Both scientific and experience.

Thanks for taking the time gentlemen.

 

[Bandit420]

1. I did not recommend a spectral ratio infact i suggested sticking to the manufacturer recommendations but lower because he didn’t have the height requirement and slightly more blue.

2. There is no comparison to intensity when you have 2-550 spread out vs 1100 i stand by this and you also said this after.

3. The efficiency increase means inequality it needs to be higher. Reflective walls ABSOLUTELY reflect light this is an UNEQUIVOCAL FACT. If you want to debate it further i can point you to countless studies on the matter.

4.The claims of max light and lower distance. Sure you can if you have a dialed in room with co2 and genetics that are from areas of higher elevation. Gentics plays a large role in that and so plant health. YOU CANNOT JUST MAKE BLANKET STATEMENTS LIKE THAT.

5. You want to talk about spectrum im extremely well versed and understand exactly what im saying. There is no nuances with these lights or any other tunable light for that matter. ITS NOT COMPLICATED WHEN YOU UNDERSTAND IT.

6. I completely understand DLI and will state again for the record NUMBERS MEAN SHIT. They are a ballpart of where to start. THEY DO NOT DEFINE LIMITING AMOUNT ETC. THE PLANTS DO.

7. You cannot compare your grow room verses his grow room VARIABLES change. Every single parameter affects how much light a plant can handle. Blind comparison is absurd.

This has to be one of the weirdest convos I've ever had about growing.
Sure there are variables but really the biggest one I see here is soil to hydro and DLI. Time of my pic temps were 81 compared to his 80. My RH was 62.8 compared to his 63.4. VPD 1.37 compared to 1.21. DLI of 16 compared to less than 1.
The conditions variable seems really close so I suppose what you're saying is soil grown can handle a ton more light than DWC.
Or just those slight variations of 1 degree or 1% rh can mean the difference between a plant taking off with a DLI of 15 and one falling over and stretched out with a DLI of less than 1.
You're saying he should follow CLW spectral recs which are so high compared to 1-3-6 but if 1-3-6 has his plants hiding from light then it would seem CLW's 39-49-99 would absolutely nuke his plants. That's kind of an odd contradiction if I'm reading this right.

I can show you what happens in my grows that will create a young plant falling over and stretched out and how I remedy that but I get the sense that info would be just as pointless as any of my other experience in growing and using CLW lights for all this time I've tried to post in this thread.
I could tell you that in my pic there's 8 strains from 4 different breeder sources with half being indica and the other half sativa and I've actually run these lights in so many configurations taking measurements at every experiment I've lost count but again, no point in posting that experience.

And yeah sure walls can reflect light. Just put your PAR meter up against a reflective hot spot and measure how much usable light there is for plants. That's all I'm saying there. My walls were once 99.9% reflective and now they're non reflective and yet no loss in garden yield or quality.
I mean I get it man. You're the expert and believe in what you're saying. I'm not an expert, just a ganja farmer and my experience in growing and using CLW lights simply differs from yours.

 

[Aqua Man]

again your getting caught up in numbers.

Leaf temps of 80 ARE NOT OK without co2.

You are too caught up on number im not saying soil handles more AT ALL.

There are always more than one reason a plant does something.

You again cannot compare you grow to his. These plants are not even the same size in the pic you posted and a week makes a lot of difference.

Every single variable makes a difference in the amount they can handle.

Im not disputing what you are seeing in your grow or your parameters being fine for your plants…. But that doesn’t mean that his can accommodate those numbers and many of his variables are different.

Eg his leaf temp is 80 im betting your were 74-75 and thats absolutely huge. The fact his leaf temp is 80 and room temp is 80 is absolutely concerning. There is not enough leaf cooling happening from transpiration. This could be for many reason but likely root mass, wind, light, water uptake and water temp vs your soil temp.

 

[Bandit420]

again your getting caught up in numbers.

Leaf temps of 80 ARE NOT OK without co2.

You are too caught up on number im not saying soil handles more AT ALL.

There are always more than one reason a plant does something.

You again cannot compare you grow to his. These plants are not even the same size in the pic you posted and a week makes a lot of difference.

Every single variable makes a difference in the amount they can handle.

Im not disputing what you are seeing in your grow or your parameters being fine for your plants…. But that doesn’t mean that his can accommodate those numbers and many of his variables are different.

Eg his leaf temp is 80 im betting your were 74-75 and thats absolutely huge. The fact his leaf temp is 80 and room temp is 80 is absolutely concerning. There is not enough leaf cooling happening from transpiration. This could be for many reason but likely root mass, wind, light, water uptake and water temp vs your soil temp.

The comparison is his plants and mine are both at 12 days old which is why I used that pic to make the comparison.
I looked at his data and compared it to mine as well and found they only differ by 1 degree and RH differs by less than 1%. VPD differs by .26 .

At this point his should be a day or two past seedling stage but they're growing very slow from what I'm used to seeing.
Even at the start when still in Root Riots before they began to fall over they're stretching out for light. Then they either get top heavy and fall over or as you say, start to hide from the light.
IME the lack of light is causing the slowed photosynthesis. Maybe the CLW recs you want him to go with would help boost that which I'm sure would be much better than his light being for all purposes turned off, but you're also saying his low output is too much light. That's the biggest point of confusion I'm reading here.
Personally I like to see my sprouts at about half that height with broader biomass in the baby leaves then when they pass seedling stage they have a shortish and firm stalk that will support a heavier and wider headset of leaves.

I'll also say that the only time I do see seedlings fall over is when they're on the perimeter stretching toward the center and they fall over. My fix is to move them to center position under the light and move the plants in the center to the perimeter then reshuffle every 2-3 days. I've never once felt like my plants were hiding from light but more so wanting a lot more than what they were getting. And not once in moving perimeter plant to center position made them weaker and stay fell over. Pretty much the opposite happens and they get back on pace with the rest of the herd.

 

[Aqua Man]

You jot getting it his leaf temps are 80.

Look at the size difference of you plants. Days don’t matter… numbers don’t matter.

The plant response and size matter.

 

[Aqua Man]

The comparison is his plants and mine are both at 12 days old which is why I used that pic to make the comparison.
I looked at his data and compared it to mine as well and found they only differ by 1 degree and RH differs by less than 1%. VPD differs by .26 .

At this point his should be a day or two past seedling stage but they're growing very slow from what I'm used to seeing.
Even at the start when still in Root Riots before they began to fall over they're stretching out for light. Then they either get top heavy and fall over or as you say, start to hide from the light.
IME the lack of light is causing the slowed photosynthesis. Maybe the CLW recs you want him to go with would help boost that which I'm sure would be much better than his light being for all purposes turned off, but you're also saying his low output is too much light. That's the biggest point of confusion I'm reading here.
Personally I like to see my sprouts at about half that height with broader biomass in the baby leaves then when they pass seedling stage they have a shortish and firm stalk that will support a heavier and wider headset of leaves.

I'll also say that the only time I do see seedlings fall over is when they're on the perimeter stretching toward the center and they fall over. My fix is to move them to center position under the light and move the plants in the center to the perimeter then reshuffle every 2-3 days. I've never once felt like my plants were hiding from light but more so wanting a lot more than what they were getting. And not once in moving perimeter plant to center position made them weaker and stay fell over. Pretty much the opposite happens and they get back on pace with the rest of the herd.

His plants are lanky because of genetics and spectrum not intensity. Its been proven a long tome now that you need to reduce light intensity soooo drastically for this to happen because of intensity its almost never seen. Thats an old outdated assumption people still pass along as bro science. Its genetic and spectrum

 

[Aqua Man]

The issue with far red is it INDUCES stretch so if the option to turn it off is there then do so for seedlings. Lack of blue light causes stretch. Red light also increases root and shoot growth compounding issues.

He was high in red, low in blue, has far red and more than likely the genetics played a large role.

Plants seeking more light will bend towards the light. Plants seeking less light will bend away.

Its scientific fact this occurs. The plants are not damping off they are bending away from the light. Its cannot be justified by any other means why a healthy seedling does that.
If there were other problems like damping off or infection yea but not in this case.

Its too much light and no numbers or comparison can change that fact.

 

[Stoneyluv]

well Grump, i'm not sure you're any further or better than what you were yesterday. there is a lot of info from two good growers and they both seem to agree on everything you have going on in your grow except for light intensity on young seedlings.

Aqua is saying less light than 10-15-30 and Bandit is saying more light than 10-15-30

it's no secret Aqua believes leaf temps are very important. and it's no secret Bandit shows how to grow in heat that is said not to be possible.

your last round leaned a bit too right? different light... your first round didn't lean at all? and your seeing some lean now and some not. it almost wants me to look at things other than the light.

but to me it sounds like you're at a split in the path for help. one path says less light and the other path says more light... i say pick one and run.. if it fails start again and pick the other path... if that path fails too then it's time to get out the machete and carve your own path (meaning it might be something other than light power)

good thing you got extra seeds.

thats my 2¢ on your situation.

 

[Aqua Man]

well Grump, i'm not sure you're any further or better than what you were yesterday. there is a lot of info from two good growers and they both seem to agree on everything you have going on in your grow except for light intensity on young seedlings.

Aqua is saying less light than 10-15-30 and Bandit is saying more light than 10-15-30

it's no secret Aqua believes leaf temps are very important. and it's no secret Bandit shows how to grow in heat that is said not to be possible.

your last round leaned a bit too right? different light... your first round didn't lean at all? and your seeing some lean now and some not. it almost wants me to look at things other than the light.

but to me it sounds like you're at a split in the path for help. one path says less light and the other path says more light... i say pick one and run.. if it fails start again and pick the other path... if that path fails too then it's time to get out the machete and carve your own path (meaning it might be something other than light power)

good thing you got extra seeds.

thats my 2¢ on your situation.

Agree. Im not specifically saying what light intensity to run as it varies based on height and he is not at the height they recommend and therefore all i can say is by looking at the plants its too much. I cannot say how much they can handle though.

Like you i would look at water temps being to high, possibly adjust airflow for forced evaporative cooling, lowering VPD a little, lowering room temp a little. When the leaf temp is even 2f cooler than ambient i would feel comfortable doing increasing the light.

I do believe you can absolutely run leaf temps of 80f but just not at this stage in growth… they are to young.

I am honestly very curious a out the water temp in the system. I feel like that may be too high.

Once the issues are sorted then i can see bumping the light up. I absolutely agree the plant should handle more light…. That i do not dispute one bit. But they are showing extreme light stress for a reason. Plus under LED for leaf temp and ambient temp to be the same screams problems. Under HID it happens but not all that often.

I think we are missing some parameters.

 

[Bandit420]

I'll add that when mine do fall over it's not in the direction of the light but which ever fan caught the head in a breeze and made them fall over.
So some fall towards the east, west, north, and south just depending on which fan blew them over.
Stretching for light is one thing that makes them weak enough to fall over.
The other reason is watering when they don't have enough roots to anchor the sprout down. The flood of water will make them fall over.
The remedy I use for both is prop it back up with a support hook immediately and they don't fall over again.
Along with a reshuffling from center point there's also some spinning around involved to get them orientated on the light if they fell away from the light. But yeah they'll lean toward the light and stretch but the fall can be in any direction due to a breeze or watering.

Here's an example from several grows ago where the stretched out sprout was too top heavy and fell over. Very similar to what Grump has going. I can't remember if it was due to perimeter stretching or a watering loosening up the anchor or maybe both but the support corrected it and it did not bend back over after being propped up. It continued vertical and even orientated itself to catch more light.
When I see one has fallen over I use these supports as soon as it's seen and don't let them lay on their side very long or let them try and grow out of it



If Grumps sprouts were supported this way to correct the fall I don't believe they would turn downward or fall over again but would likely stretch vertical. If continuing to stretch with a thin stem and a searching for light posture I'd say give them more light. If they sorta wilt, look beat up and worn out, and go towards a pale side of green I'd agree it was too much light.
It's just really hard for me to believe these lights on that low of power setting will cause light stress. It's actually kinda hard to light stress with these lights unless you get nuts with max power and have it like 5 inches above target. They really don't deliver the extreme photon rain until they're up around 90-90-90

If this was due to genetics I can only offer that two of the plants in my pic above have the same Gellato in them as Grumps.
If they were mutants I'd say yeah genetics as some of mine came up mutant but mine were not stretchy. Actually more runty sprouts and squatty plant at harvest.
Like that 3-4 cotyledon sprout, three nodes off one leaf, only one leaf off a node like that one above, or die after germination is common from that breeder across most of his fem cuts.

EDIT to add more examples:

So here's a pair that fell over due to not being very well anchored early on and Y'all can see how they're short and stout but top heavy enough to fall over after watering




This one there's multiple plants that have fallen over.
The propped up ones in the center rows are due to not being anchored well enough while in the upper right corners you can see they're weakened from perimeter stretching and being lanky. That's where my light is coming up short and rotations are started.
This is also why I love multistrain grows because it tends to eliminate some possibilities like too much or too little of any one thing. So if the light was bad for 2-3 then it should be bad for all and the same goes for water chemistry, feeding, etc



And yep, a common mutation from heisen/gps feminized strains. They don't really stretch but will get weird AF

 

[Aqua Man]

I'll add that when mine do fall over it's not in the direction of the light but which ever fan caught the head in a breeze and made them fall over.
So some fall towards the east, west, north, and south just depending on which fan blew them over.
Stretching for light is one thing that makes them weak enough to fall over.
The other reason is watering when they don't have enough roots to anchor the sprout down. The flood of water will make them fall over.
The remedy I use for both is prop it back up with a support hook immediately and they don't fall over again.
Along with a reshuffling from center point there's also some spinning around involved to get them orientated on the light if they fell away from the light. But yeah they'll lean toward the light and stretch but the fall can be in any direction due to a breeze or watering.

Here's an example from several grows ago where the stretched out sprout was too top heavy and fell over. Very similar to what Grump has going. I can't remember if it was due to perimeter stretching or a watering loosening up the anchor or maybe both but the support corrected it and it did not bend back over after being propped up. It continued vertical and even orientated itself to catch more light.
When I see one has fallen over I use these supports as soon as it's seen and don't let them lay on their side very long or let them try and grow out of it

View attachment 67358

If Grumps sprouts were supported this way to correct the fall I don't believe they would turn downward or fall over again but would likely stretch vertical. If continuing to stretch with a thin stem and a searching for light posture I'd say give them more light. If they sorta wilt, look beat up and worn out, and go towards a pale side of green I'd agree it was too much light.
It's just really hard for me to believe these lights on that low of power setting will cause light stress. It's actually kinda hard to light stress with these lights unless you get nuts with max power and have it like 5 inches above target. They really don't deliver the extreme photon rain until they're up around 90-90-90

If this was due to genetics I can only offer that two of the plants in my pic above have the same Gellato in them as Grumps.
If they were mutants I'd say yeah genetics as some of mine came up mutant but mine were not stretchy. Actually more runty sprouts and squatty plant at harvest.
Like that 3-4 cotyledon sprout, three nodes off one leaf, only one leaf off a node like that one above, or die after germination is common from that breeder across most of his fem cuts.

Thats shows very similar symptoms of light stress.

Wavey and spiky leaf edges with raised swollen intervenal tissue which is a transpiration issue not always light related but can be VPD and root pressure also. But light drives transpiration. A plant with too little light doesn’t fall over.

Wind would have to be crazy high to keep a plant pushed sideways IMO.

I can also see the high red hue in the picture.

Stretch is a combination of things not just one thing. Genetics do play a big role but so does temp, light spectrum and PGR’s

Right at sprout if you have a 4-8000k color temp of light it makes a huge difference.

Your light intensity per distance is very different than his. Remember intensity at the leaf is different when you have the same wattage over a wider area. Its just not comparable

 

[Aqua Man]

There was 2 times i had excess stretch with seedlings. 1 under a 3000k color light and the other from using a PGR immediately… namely triacontanol.

If you doubt me try starting some under the spectrum grump was using and then some under a 6000k. Its absolutely noght and day

 

[GrumpAzz]

@Aqua Man, @Bandit420.. Thank you guys for putting so much into your responses and I really appreciate the discussion. I have quite a bit to read through tonight.

The two leaners are leaning less now, granted I stacked some pebbles for a bit of support. They've been getting 4:5:9 since I went to bed. I'm gonna leave it there since it didn't seem to make it worse, then I'll report back in the morning.

I also plan on a res change in the morning. Well, I planned to do it this afternoon before work, but I couldn't get up. I want to up the silicate a tad and give em a bit of a bump in Nitrogen. The one seedling that's leading the pack is looking a tad lighter like it's ready for more food.

Thanks again guys.

 

[Aqua Man]

@Aqua Man, @Bandit420.. Thank you guys for putting so much into your responses and I really appreciate the discussion. I have quite a bit to read through tonight.

The two leaners are leaning less now, granted I stacked some pebbles for a bit of support. They've been getting 4:5:9 since I went to bed. I'm gonna leave it there since it didn't seem to make it worse, then I'll report back in the morning.

I also plan on a res change in the morning. Well, I planned to do it this afternoon before work, but I couldn't get up. I want to up the silicate a tad and give em a bit of a bump in Nitrogen. The one seedling that's leading the pack is looking a tad lighter like it's ready for more food.

Thanks again guys.

Curious on the water temps bro

 

[GrumpAzz]

Curious on the water temps bro

70

 

[Aqua Man]

70

Ok thats perfect

 

[Bandit420]

Thats shows very similar symptoms of light stress.

Wavey and spiky leaf edges with raised swollen intervenal tissue which is a transpiration issue not always light related but can be VPD and root pressure also. But light drives transpiration. A plant with too little light doesn’t fall over.

Wind would have to be crazy high to keep a plant pushed sideways IMO.

I can also see the high red hue in the picture.

Stretch is a combination of things not just one thing. Genetics do play a big role but so does temp, light spectrum and PGR’s

Right at sprout if you have a 4-8000k color temp of light it makes a huge difference.

Your light intensity per distance is very different than his. Remember intensity at the leaf is different when you have the same wattage over a wider area. Its just not comparable

Most recent grow with light getting dialed in better any fall overs were avoided compared to that grow.

Same group above but a week later. Nothing adjusted other than light output increase to 70-70.
I agree a plant can't be toppled by a breeze but a soft stem seedling without enough roots anchoring it down can fall over if breathed on too hard in a loose medium.
I wouldn't focus too much on the color of my pics as my Ipad does not equal reality at all.



This grow was actually a second test of CLW's newish Spectramax 1000 which is a demon of a light to work with so there were bound to be mistakes and missteps. Like back in 2016-19, growers are left to figure it out on their own as there is no user guide for it.
Then later dual 550s are added to the array.
This grow was also a genetic pheno hunt.
With this Spectramax I can pretty much dial up any kelvin temp I want within reason and seriously make it rain photons at a level not many lights on the market can do. It's very ez to beat a plant into submission with this thing unlike the Solar System series which are super user friendly.
I can't get it to do a good finishing spectra at 8000-10,000K and that's about it but anything between 2500 and 4500 is available.

Given how many plants I've grown with all the different CLW lights and especially recent models it's ez for me to dial up a singluar or array of spectrum, use a Pulse Pro to diagnose that spectrum, it's DLI, and PPFD and also break down what colors are making up that PPFD.
With that data I've been able to predict how it will grow a plant then it's just a matter of seeing if the data matches what the plants are doing. It does 9/10 times with mutants being the wildcards. That's what I did this morning on Grumps low settings and it raised an alarm of weak light.

I pay very little mind to what leaves are doing at this early stage unless it's something radically weird.
Really the only thing I'm looking for is them to look as normal green as possible, not be infested or have mildew, and not be mutated.
Baby growth is cut away at upcan so concern over what single and three blade baby leaves look like are really not something I'll make any adjustment for in order to get them to look perfect. They're only needed for 15 days if that before they're cut off.

My main concern is fast growth rate and temp not getting too hot and out of control. And I can guarantee my defintion of too hot is very different from yours and probably every grower on this forum. Everything else is secondary or ignored until I'm stacking flowers.
So if I see a leaf that may be wavy from heat or any other deformity early on it will be let go because it will either be cut off when cleaned up for upcan or there's going to be 1000s of more leaves coming out and I'm not going to worry about every leaf in the crop looking perfect. Like it may not be ideal today but in a week it really wont matter at all.


10 days later they're culled, upcanned, clipped, and flipped. Several mutants were allowed to remain simply because they were interesting specimens. Some are shock stressed from the upcan and having roots exposed but in 24 hours all will be perky again with DLI increased to 30.



And nearing harvest with a 45 DLI and 1002 PPFD but it could be pushed up to 1700PPFD. I couldn't tell you what the kelvin temp is but if I guessed it would be around 3000K then up to around 3500 with the SS550s added in give or take a couple hundred kelvin.
Biggest focus for me really is leaf to calyx ratio, flower density, and most of all oil production. Like I pay no mind to tacos or waves as long as they get loaded with frost. Burnt tips however are a pet peeve because that cuts into oil production ans is why I feed at very low rates to prevent burns. From time to time there will be extreme stretching in some strains and next to no stretch for others. This room was built to handle such oddities since they're quite common among hybrids



During this stage I really don't look that much into what leaves are doing with the exception of something like pest inspections and maybe counting blades. I don't chase VPD because it's like herding cats and I tend to focus more on heat than anything because if that's not in control then everything else will be outa wack.
As long as leaves don't fall off early, wilt, go raptor claw, or burn up I'm pretty happy with them.
My sole focus really is 100% flowers especially with flipping plants at around 20 days old from dry seed. I don't veg plants past the first set of 5 point leaves and those leaves that are on the plant at flip will be meaningless as the grow progresses.
So everything I do is to push a crop hard as it can be pushed. I've told others this isn't a garden but more of a gulag. Temps, RH, co2, and VPD and everything else are pretty much always severely less than ideal especially with a room running in the high 90s. If conditions are ideal it's because I got lucky with Mother Nature that day.
Leaf temps on sprouts can sometimes hit mid 80s. Germination temps are always well above 80. Flowering temp is the only time I exert control and use an AC to cool the joint down. Air flow is well above and beyond normal here as well as water uptake. Dual exhaust, 8 small air movers, two large air movers and probably more I'm not counting. What's done here could and has been considered impossible by many but I see these things as mere hurtles that can be overcome quickly and still haul a high quality harvest. If I was to sum up this way of farming ganja as a book it would be a coloring book and I color outside the lines on every picture.

 

[Aqua Man]

Do you have your data on light? See i get you are doing your own research but i have read countless studies on light and i absolutely understand how light affects plants bit i also understand how somethings are attributed to other things incorrectly.

There are different receptors and they can absolutely be saturated even at lower than normal levels it depends on the plants ability to convert each photon of various receptors into energy. The fact you skip all the other things tells me you are missing a large part of the puzzle. Every single factor affects other factors and in turn growth rates, plant health and ability to absorb and convert photons to at peak efficiency, to distribute that energy when needed. The biggest influence are light spectrum/intensity, o2 in the rootzone, co2 in the atmosphere and so on down the lost but they all do.
If you want show your data lets break it down. In small amounts because there is 2 million claims in a single post.

If you can post your data in a new thread i would be more than happy to go through it and compare to known data.

 

[Observer]

1. I did not recommend a spectral ratio infact i suggested sticking to the manufacturer recommendations but lower because he didn’t have the height requirement and slightly more blue.

2. There is no comparison to intensity when you have 2-550 spread out vs 1100 i stand by this and you also said this after.

3. The efficiency increase means inequality it needs to be higher. Reflective walls ABSOLUTELY reflect light this is an UNEQUIVOCAL FACT. If you want to debate it further i can point you to countless studies on the matter.

4.The claims of max light and lower distance. Sure you can if you have a dialed in room with co2 and genetics that are from areas of higher elevation. Gentics plays a large role in that and so plant health. YOU CANNOT JUST MAKE BLANKET STATEMENTS LIKE THAT.

5. You want to talk about spectrum im extremely well versed and understand exactly what im saying. There is no nuances with these lights or any other tunable light for that matter. ITS NOT COMPLICATED WHEN YOU UNDERSTAND IT.

6. I completely understand DLI and will state again for the record NUMBERS MEAN SHIT. They are a ballpart of where to start. THEY DO NOT DEFINE LIMITING AMOUNT ETC. THE PLANTS DO.

7. You cannot compare your grow room verses his grow room VARIABLES change. Every single parameter affects how much light a plant can handle. Blind comparison is absurd.

but moe red and others said reflective walls are negligible


come the fuck on guys

 

[Observer]

There are different receptors and they can absolutely be saturated even at lower than normal levels it depends on the plants ability to convert each photon of various receptors into energy. The fact you skip all the other things tells me you are missing a large part of the puzzle. Every single factor affects other factors and in turn

If you can post your data in a new thread i would be more than happy to go through it and compare to known data.

yup

you can overload the Red phytochromes and not the Blue Photoreceptors when light spectral ratio is fucked off

different photons have different wavelengths, less or more energy, different photoreceptors handle them differently.


i like blue leaning intensity for compactness, i would not want to run much red at all if im running a dialed 420 solos in a 5x5, for my crazy 117.6g/sq ft theory

 

[Aqua Man]

but moe red and others said reflective walls are negligible


come the fuck on guys

It depends a lot on material and direction of light spread, height and lens angles play a large roll.

The light moe has makes it negligible because of the lenses in that light

 

[Observer]

It depends a lot on material and direction of light spread, height and lens angles play a large roll.

The light moe has makes it negligible because of the lenses in that light

yea i read how those are some specially designed lenses for optimum even spread?