@Aqua Man, @Bandit420.. Thank you guys for putting so much into your responses and I really appreciate the discussion. I have quite a bit to read through tonight.

The two leaners are leaning less now, granted I stacked some pebbles for a bit of support. They've been getting 4:5:9 since I went to bed. I'm gonna leave it there since it didn't seem to make it worse, then I'll report back in the morning.

I also plan on a res change in the morning. Well, I planned to do it this afternoon before work, but I couldn't get up. I want to up the silicate a tad and give em a bit of a bump in Nitrogen. The one seedling that's leading the pack is looking a tad lighter like it's ready for more food.

Thanks again guys.
 
@Aqua Man, @Bandit420.. Thank you guys for putting so much into your responses and I really appreciate the discussion. I have quite a bit to read through tonight.

The two leaners are leaning less now, granted I stacked some pebbles for a bit of support. They've been getting 4:5:9 since I went to bed. I'm gonna leave it there since it didn't seem to make it worse, then I'll report back in the morning.

I also plan on a res change in the morning. Well, I planned to do it this afternoon before work, but I couldn't get up. I want to up the silicate a tad and give em a bit of a bump in Nitrogen. The one seedling that's leading the pack is looking a tad lighter like it's ready for more food.

Thanks again guys.
Curious on the water temps bro
 
Thats shows very similar symptoms of light stress.

Wavey and spiky leaf edges with raised swollen intervenal tissue which is a transpiration issue not always light related but can be VPD and root pressure also. But light drives transpiration. A plant with too little light doesn’t fall over.

Wind would have to be crazy high to keep a plant pushed sideways IMO.

I can also see the high red hue in the picture.

Stretch is a combination of things not just one thing. Genetics do play a big role but so does temp, light spectrum and PGR’s

Right at sprout if you have a 4-8000k color temp of light it makes a huge difference.

Your light intensity per distance is very different than his. Remember intensity at the leaf is different when you have the same wattage over a wider area. Its just not comparable

Most recent grow with light getting dialed in better any fall overs were avoided compared to that grow.

Same group above but a week later. Nothing adjusted other than light output increase to 70-70.
I agree a plant can't be toppled by a breeze but a soft stem seedling without enough roots anchoring it down can fall over if breathed on too hard in a loose medium.
I wouldn't focus too much on the color of my pics as my Ipad does not equal reality at all.

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This grow was actually a second test of CLW's newish Spectramax 1000 which is a demon of a light to work with so there were bound to be mistakes and missteps. Like back in 2016-19, growers are left to figure it out on their own as there is no user guide for it.
Then later dual 550s are added to the array.
This grow was also a genetic pheno hunt.
With this Spectramax I can pretty much dial up any kelvin temp I want within reason and seriously make it rain photons at a level not many lights on the market can do. It's very ez to beat a plant into submission with this thing unlike the Solar System series which are super user friendly.
I can't get it to do a good finishing spectra at 8000-10,000K and that's about it but anything between 2500 and 4500 is available.

Given how many plants I've grown with all the different CLW lights and especially recent models it's ez for me to dial up a singluar or array of spectrum, use a Pulse Pro to diagnose that spectrum, it's DLI, and PPFD and also break down what colors are making up that PPFD.
With that data I've been able to predict how it will grow a plant then it's just a matter of seeing if the data matches what the plants are doing. It does 9/10 times with mutants being the wildcards. That's what I did this morning on Grumps low settings and it raised an alarm of weak light.

I pay very little mind to what leaves are doing at this early stage unless it's something radically weird.
Really the only thing I'm looking for is them to look as normal green as possible, not be infested or have mildew, and not be mutated.
Baby growth is cut away at upcan so concern over what single and three blade baby leaves look like are really not something I'll make any adjustment for in order to get them to look perfect. They're only needed for 15 days if that before they're cut off.

My main concern is fast growth rate and temp not getting too hot and out of control. And I can guarantee my defintion of too hot is very different from yours and probably every grower on this forum. Everything else is secondary or ignored until I'm stacking flowers.
So if I see a leaf that may be wavy from heat or any other deformity early on it will be let go because it will either be cut off when cleaned up for upcan or there's going to be 1000s of more leaves coming out and I'm not going to worry about every leaf in the crop looking perfect. Like it may not be ideal today but in a week it really wont matter at all.


10 days later they're culled, upcanned, clipped, and flipped. Several mutants were allowed to remain simply because they were interesting specimens. Some are shock stressed from the upcan and having roots exposed but in 24 hours all will be perky again with DLI increased to 30.

IMG_6420.JPG

And nearing harvest with a 45 DLI and 1002 PPFD but it could be pushed up to 1700PPFD. I couldn't tell you what the kelvin temp is but if I guessed it would be around 3000K then up to around 3500 with the SS550s added in give or take a couple hundred kelvin.
Biggest focus for me really is leaf to calyx ratio, flower density, and most of all oil production. Like I pay no mind to tacos or waves as long as they get loaded with frost. Burnt tips however are a pet peeve because that cuts into oil production ans is why I feed at very low rates to prevent burns. From time to time there will be extreme stretching in some strains and next to no stretch for others. This room was built to handle such oddities since they're quite common among hybrids

IMG_6661.JPG

During this stage I really don't look that much into what leaves are doing with the exception of something like pest inspections and maybe counting blades. I don't chase VPD because it's like herding cats and I tend to focus more on heat than anything because if that's not in control then everything else will be outa wack.
As long as leaves don't fall off early, wilt, go raptor claw, or burn up I'm pretty happy with them.
My sole focus really is 100% flowers especially with flipping plants at around 20 days old from dry seed. I don't veg plants past the first set of 5 point leaves and those leaves that are on the plant at flip will be meaningless as the grow progresses.
So everything I do is to push a crop hard as it can be pushed. I've told others this isn't a garden but more of a gulag. Temps, RH, co2, and VPD and everything else are pretty much always severely less than ideal especially with a room running in the high 90s. If conditions are ideal it's because I got lucky with Mother Nature that day.
Leaf temps on sprouts can sometimes hit mid 80s. Germination temps are always well above 80. Flowering temp is the only time I exert control and use an AC to cool the joint down. Air flow is well above and beyond normal here as well as water uptake. Dual exhaust, 8 small air movers, two large air movers and probably more I'm not counting. What's done here could and has been considered impossible by many but I see these things as mere hurtles that can be overcome quickly and still haul a high quality harvest. If I was to sum up this way of farming ganja as a book it would be a coloring book and I color outside the lines on every picture.
 
Do you have your data on light? See i get you are doing your own research but i have read countless studies on light and i absolutely understand how light affects plants bit i also understand how somethings are attributed to other things incorrectly.

There are different receptors and they can absolutely be saturated even at lower than normal levels it depends on the plants ability to convert each photon of various receptors into energy. The fact you skip all the other things tells me you are missing a large part of the puzzle. Every single factor affects other factors and in turn growth rates, plant health and ability to absorb and convert photons to at peak efficiency, to distribute that energy when needed. The biggest influence are light spectrum/intensity, o2 in the rootzone, co2 in the atmosphere and so on down the lost but they all do.
If you want show your data lets break it down. In small amounts because there is 2 million claims in a single post.

If you can post your data in a new thread i would be more than happy to go through it and compare to known data.
 
1. I did not recommend a spectral ratio infact i suggested sticking to the manufacturer recommendations but lower because he didn’t have the height requirement and slightly more blue.

2. There is no comparison to intensity when you have 2-550 spread out vs 1100 i stand by this and you also said this after.

3. The efficiency increase means inequality it needs to be higher. Reflective walls ABSOLUTELY reflect light this is an UNEQUIVOCAL FACT. If you want to debate it further i can point you to countless studies on the matter.

4.The claims of max light and lower distance. Sure you can if you have a dialed in room with co2 and genetics that are from areas of higher elevation. Gentics plays a large role in that and so plant health. YOU CANNOT JUST MAKE BLANKET STATEMENTS LIKE THAT.

5. You want to talk about spectrum im extremely well versed and understand exactly what im saying. There is no nuances with these lights or any other tunable light for that matter. ITS NOT COMPLICATED WHEN YOU UNDERSTAND IT.

6. I completely understand DLI and will state again for the record NUMBERS MEAN SHIT. They are a ballpart of where to start. THEY DO NOT DEFINE LIMITING AMOUNT ETC. THE PLANTS DO.

7. You cannot compare your grow room verses his grow room VARIABLES change. Every single parameter affects how much light a plant can handle. Blind comparison is absurd.
but moe red and others said reflective walls are negligible


come the fuck on guys
 
There are different receptors and they can absolutely be saturated even at lower than normal levels it depends on the plants ability to convert each photon of various receptors into energy. The fact you skip all the other things tells me you are missing a large part of the puzzle. Every single factor affects other factors and in turn

If you can post your data in a new thread i would be more than happy to go through it and compare to known data.
yup

you can overload the Red phytochromes and not the Blue Photoreceptors when light spectral ratio is fucked off

different photons have different wavelengths, less or more energy, different photoreceptors handle them differently.


i like blue leaning intensity for compactness, i would not want to run much red at all if im running a dialed 420 solos in a 5x5, for my crazy 117.6g/sq ft theory
 
but moe red and others said reflective walls are negligible


come the fuck on guys
It depends a lot on material and direction of light spread, height and lens angles play a large roll.

The light moe has makes it negligible because of the lenses in that light
 
It depends a lot on material and direction of light spread, height and lens angles play a large roll.

The light moe has makes it negligible because of the lenses in that light
yea i read how those are some specially designed lenses for optimum even spread?
 
Figure 1. Proposed explanatory model of plants photoreceptors activity upon activated by light. (a) The biological active Pfr form of the phytochrome is activated by red light (R).

The interaction between Pfr and PIFs triggers the rapid phosphorylation of PIFs entering protein degradation via the ubiquitin 26S proteasome pathway promoting photomorphogenesis. Pfr also induces COP1-SPA1 complex dissociation.

All these pathways lead to the accumulation of major transcription factors (TFs) triggering photomorphogenesis such as HY5 (b) Two mechanisms are represented for cryptochrome signal transduction.

Transcription regulation of light-activated Cry after interaction with TF CIB1 and its relatives (CIBs) leads to the activation of FT transcription, promoting floral initiation.

The other mechanisms involve the interaction of cryptochromes with SPA1 proteins to suppress SPA1 activation of COP1 activity necessary for the degradation of HY5, HYH, CO, and other transcription regulators promoting photomorphogenesis.

(c) ztls are activated by UV-A/blue light. Once activated, they interact with GI, resulting in the stabilization of these receptors, enabling them to act as E3 ligases which target the transcriptional regulators CDF and TOC1 for degradation.

In addition, light-activated FKF1 interacts with and stabilizes CO. (d) The inactive dimeric form of UVR8 is activated to the monomeric form by UV-B, which interacts with the E3 ubiquitin ligase COP1. With the suppression of COP1, HY5 and HYH are stabilized. These two proteins, in a feed-forward loop, bind to the HY5 promoter region with further activation of transcription.
Plants 09 00894 g001



yea i dont understand all of this fully yet, but id like to.




shit starts to get really complex when you study organic chem.
 
Figure 1. Proposed explanatory model of plants photoreceptors activity upon activated by light. (a) The biological active Pfr form of the phytochrome is activated by red light (R). The interaction between Pfr and PIFs triggers the rapid phosphorylation of PIFs entering protein degradation via the ubiquitin 26S proteasome pathway promoting photomorphogenesis. Pfr also induces COP1-SPA1 complex dissociation. All these pathways lead to the accumulation of major transcription factors (TFs) triggering photomorphogenesis such as HY5 (b) Two mechanisms are represented for cryptochrome signal transduction. Transcription regulation of light-activated Cry after interaction with TF CIB1 and its relatives (CIBs) leads to the activation of FT transcription, promoting floral initiation. The other mechanisms involve the interaction of cryptochromes with SPA1 proteins to suppress SPA1 activation of COP1 activity necessary for the degradation of HY5, HYH, CO, and other transcription regulators promoting photomorphogenesis. (c) ztls are activated by UV-A/blue light. Once activated, they interact with GI, resulting in the stabilization of these receptors, enabling them to act as E3 ligases which target the transcriptional regulators CDF and TOC1 for degradation. In addition, light-activated FKF1 interacts with and stabilizes CO. (d) The inactive dimeric form of UVR8 is activated to the monomeric form by UV-B, which interacts with the E3 ubiquitin ligase COP1. With the suppression of COP1, HY5 and HYH are stabilized. These two proteins, in a feed-forward loop, bind to the HY5 promoter region with further activation of transcription.
Plants 09 00894 g001



heres a little info on photoreceptors and photomorphogenesis.
 
Figure 1. Proposed explanatory model of plants photoreceptors activity upon activated by light. (a) The biological active Pfr form of the phytochrome is activated by red light (R).

The interaction between Pfr and PIFs triggers the rapid phosphorylation of PIFs entering protein degradation via the ubiquitin 26S proteasome pathway promoting photomorphogenesis. Pfr also induces COP1-SPA1 complex dissociation.

All these pathways lead to the accumulation of major transcription factors (TFs) triggering photomorphogenesis such as HY5 (b) Two mechanisms are represented for cryptochrome signal transduction.

Transcription regulation of light-activated Cry after interaction with TF CIB1 and its relatives (CIBs) leads to the activation of FT transcription, promoting floral initiation.

The other mechanisms involve the interaction of cryptochromes with SPA1 proteins to suppress SPA1 activation of COP1 activity necessary for the degradation of HY5, HYH, CO, and other transcription regulators promoting photomorphogenesis.

(c) ztls are activated by UV-A/blue light. Once activated, they interact with GI, resulting in the stabilization of these receptors, enabling them to act as E3 ligases which target the transcriptional regulators CDF and TOC1 for degradation.

In addition, light-activated FKF1 interacts with and stabilizes CO. (d) The inactive dimeric form of UVR8 is activated to the monomeric form by UV-B, which interacts with the E3 ubiquitin ligase COP1. With the suppression of COP1, HY5 and HYH are stabilized. These two proteins, in a feed-forward loop, bind to the HY5 promoter region with further activation of transcription.
Plants 09 00894 g001



yea i dont understand all of this fully yet, but id like to.

Yea the synergies are important to understand between I /blie and red/far red.

Thats part of what i was talking about earlier on how his spectrum was responsible for stretching. The importance of understanding the red/far red and UV/blue light have large effects on the morphology of the plant
 
Thats part of what i was talking about earlier on how his spectrum was responsible for stretching. The importance of understanding the red/far red and UV/blue light have large effects on the morphology of the plant
was thinking this was a good paper for what we are biomechanically talking about.

and theres a few more out there too
 
was thinking this was a good paper for what we are biomechanically talking about.

and theres a few more out there too
Yea there are tons out there and a really good one thats is a collective summary of probably 30+ studies on cannabis.

I’ll find it tomorrow. Off to bed
 
Yea there are tons out there and a really good one thats is a collective summary of probably 30+ studies on cannabis.

I’ll find it tomorrow. Off to bed
thanks man

night
 
Well this guy bounced back pretty quick and the stem doesn't look all wimpy this morning. The other is doing alright too.
1000014159.jpg

This one is chugging along and she's the reason they all got a bump up to 230ppm. The roots are comparable on all the plants.
20240730_074350.jpg20240730_074430.jpg
1000014156.jpg

And then there's this damn thang. She's trying to earn her spot back in the tent. 3 days ago her top was below the lip of the netpot.
1000014161.jpg

Whether it was lowering the intensity or fixing the spectrum, or just lowering the speed on my fans, it seems to have helped.
 
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i say pick one and run.. if it fails start again and pick the other path... if that path fails too then it's time to get out the machete and carve your own path (meaning it might be something other than light power)
Well I did a few things but it seems to have helped. Everyone looked good before work tonight.

I lowered the speeds on my oscillating fans just in case they were blowing them over.

I put in a spectrum ratio of 4r : 5w : 10b which is basically as low as I can go in intensity while keeping the recommended ratio.

I lowered room temp and brought the leaf temps down to ~76 and dropped the humidity so that the VPD hovers around 1.

Res change this morning to give them a little more silicate and a boost in Nitrogen. They also got a small dose of CalMag. It's too soon to tell how they'll respond to that, but they've responded well to the light and environment changes.

your last round leaned a bit too right? different light... your first round didn't lean at all? and your seeing some lean now and some not. it almost wants me to look at things other than the light.
So first two rounds were with the SpiderFarmer SE-5000 which is about half the wattage of the SolarSystem. I'd be around 15% at this stage and would be starting to bump it up 1% per day.

The last round of seeds acted very similar to this round. Weak stems and falling over or just growing weirdly. That was the first round with the new light.

-------

I'm convinced at this point that it was a spectrum and/or leaf temp issue. Not so much the intensity. I need to check the leaf temps in the dome because the one that fell over in the tent has really started to correct itself since being removed. Quite the rebound considering I was sure it was done for.

I think we're one the right track now.
 
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Well I did a few things but it seems to have helped. Everyone looked good before work tonight.

I lowered the speeds on my oscillating fans just in case they were blowing them over.

I put in a spectrum ratio of 4r : 5w : 10b which is basically as low as I can go in intensity while keeping the recommended ratio.

I lowered room temp and brought the leaf temps down to ~76 and dropped the humidity so that the VPD hovers around 1.

Res change this morning to give them a little more silicate and a boost in Nitrogen. They also got a small dose of CalMag. It's too soon to tell how they'll respond to that, but they've responded well to the light and environment changes.


So first two rounds were with the SpiderFarmer SE-5000 which is about half the wattage of the SolarSystem. I'd be around 15% at this stage and would be starting to bump it up 1% per day.

The last round of seeds acted very similar to this round. Weak stems and falling over or just growing weirdly. That was the first round with the new light.

-------

I'm convinced at this point that it was a spectrum and/or leaf temp issue. Not so much the intensity. I need to check the leaf temps in the dome because the one that fell over in the tent has really started to correct itself since being removed. Quite the rebound considering I was sure it was done for.

I think we're one the right track now.

yeah man, they've definitely grown out of that awkward stage of bobble heading now, so onwards and upwards.. bring on the buds!!

i'm paying more attention to hydro journals right now because i think i wanna dip my toe.. so i'd love it if you would remember these setting you've found to improve them and apply the same settings next round to test it out. i'll be all eyes and ears on that!!
 
yeah man, they've definitely grown out of that awkward stage of bobble heading now, so onwards and upwards.. bring on the buds!!

i'm paying more attention to hydro journals right now because i think i wanna dip my toe.. so i'd love it if you would remember these setting you've found to improve them and apply the same settings next round to test it out. i'll be all eyes and ears on that!!
Will do brother. I'm thinking I'll start beans sooner this next time and leave them in the dome longer. I really like how the roots are looking on the plant that came over from the dome. They've all got nice and long roots besides that one, but that one's got probably twice as many.
 
We're back on track, I believe. Everyone seems to be doing fine. I'll keep a close eye on them and when two or more throw 5 blades, I'll give them the recommended Veg spectrum at 10:20:20 and bump it up slowly from there.
 
Well this guy bounced back pretty quick and the stem doesn't look all wimpy this morning. The other is doing alright too.
View attachment 67412

This one is chugging along and she's the reason they all got a bump up to 230ppm. The roots are comparable on all the plants.
View attachment 67416View attachment 67417
View attachment 67423

And then there's this damn thang. She's trying to earn her spot back in the tent. 3 days ago her top was below the lip of the netpot.
View attachment 67418

Whether it was lowering the intensity or fixing the spectrum, or just lowering the speed on my fans, it seems to have helped.

Pipe cleaner's are a leggy seedlings best friend. (y)Dark Phoenix V2 (4).JPG
 
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