Red's Thread ~ All things Cannabis

[Aqua Man]

If anyone wants to see the full report and MDK approves of me posting a private message, I'll put it up. He put some serious thought into this.

Here is a snippet

View attachment 28316

In his case, A&D were hydro, B&C were soil.

TL/DR; It's a split decision. Very close overall and they each liked a different one.

My other testers were not nearly as detailed, but the same result happened.

My takeaway was that there is not a significant difference between the grow styles in terms of smoking flower.

I've got plenty more here if anyone else is in the neighborhood and wants to try.

Imo there is a difference of palates and preferences and the whole thing can be influenced by a bias opinion if not a blind test. Lots of scientific evidence to show how much bias can play a placebo role.

This is why we all do not have the same favourite food.

Imo the grow method can and absolutely does change the terpene and flavonoid profiles of a plant… for the better or the worse depends on the palate and the norm of that palate.

If you grow up with your mom’s spaghetti and you have someone else's, more than likely you will feel its not as good…. EG change the grow methods and it will impact this and just the fact it provides a slight difference people have the same reactions. Some say hydro is better and some say organic is… of the same strain speaking. It’s relevant.

There is also the fact that given the adequate source of nutrients thing plays a role. Some commercial companies over feed or under feed synthetic nutrients and that can have an impact… same is true for organic but to a much lower risk.

This all depends on indoor, outdoor, feeding and plant health… not so much the organic or synthetic argument. Thats just what the industry wants you to believe

 

[Observer]

Imo there is a difference of palates and preferences and the whole thing can be influenced by a bias opinion if not a blind test. Lots of scientific evidence to show how much bias can play a placebo role.

This is why we all do not have the same favourite food.

Imo the grow method can and absolutely does change the terpene and flavonoid profiles of a plant… for the better or the worse depends on the palate and the norm of that palate.

If you grow up with your mom’s spaghetti and you have someone else's, more than likely you will feel its not as good…. EG change the grow methods and it will impact this and just the fact it provides a slight difference people have the same reactions. Some say hydro is better and some say organic is… of the same strain speaking. It’s relevant.

There is also the fact that given the adequate source of nutrients thing plays a role. Some commercial companies over feed or under feed synthetic nutrients and that can have an impact… same is true for organic but to a much lower risk.

This all depends on indoor, outdoor, feeding and plant health… not so much the organic or synthetic argument. Thats just what the industry wants you to believe

Well Put Aquaman

 

[Zen_seeker]

I find cigars, wine and scotch the same. Personal taste wins unless influenced by prior knowledge or how one is presented over the other. IME

 

[Rootsruler]

I've got plenty more here if anyone else is in the neighborhood and wants to try.

Good thing I closed the window before my GF read this. Had she read this she'd be booking a flight to you. Probably without me so she doesn't have to share!!!

 

[MDK]

I agree and for the record my wife was the only one completely blind, I had to break it up and roll it.

That said, I was way wrong. I was playing checkers and moe was on some 3d chess had me guessing the whole time.

Started with him giving me this honker bud of some old white widow he had sitting around. The bud is just a huge growth of weed, and in the past when I got hydro locally it was always like that, like the bud just grew so much it didn't have time to focus on bud structure. When it came to the samples though, the dirt samples looked like typical "hydro" to me. So I assumed BC were the dro. WRONG. I did try to look at it objectively and as blind as possible though. I'm a fan of weed...green weed brown weed dirt weed dank weed. So method of grow doesn't bother me, I'll smoke it all.

And on a scale of 1-10 all four samples fell between 8 and 9. So no real loser in my opinion, only real loser is the person who doesn't take up the offer!

 

[moe.red]

Imo there is a difference of palates and preferences and the whole thing can be influenced by a bias opinion if not a blind test. Lots of scientific evidence to show how much bias can play a placebo role.

This is why we all do not have the same favourite food.

Imo the grow method can and absolutely does change the terpene and flavonoid profiles of a plant… for the better or the worse depends on the palate and the norm of that palate.

If you grow up with your mom’s spaghetti and you have someone else's, more than likely you will feel its not as good…. EG change the grow methods and it will impact this and just the fact it provides a slight difference people have the same reactions. Some say hydro is better and some say organic is… of the same strain speaking. It’s relevant.

There is also the fact that given the adequate source of nutrients thing plays a role. Some commercial companies over feed or under feed synthetic nutrients and that can have an impact… same is true for organic but to a much lower risk.

This all depends on indoor, outdoor, feeding and plant health… not so much the organic or synthetic argument. Thats just what the industry wants you to believe

That's a lot to unpack.

This is a completely subjective test if both methods finish well. I just proved it to myself is all. My personal preference is I am not a fan of either.

In terms of organic vs synthetic, I do believe that there is a different taste profile to each one. MDK and my other testers also said so. Although that was not the only thing being tested here. But I was dumping in terp tea and molasses so they were clearly fed a different diet.

This is not an attempt to claim a winner. Sample size small, method questionable. But there was not enough difference to make me want to switch to soil. I'm a hydro guy. Can't play with finding boundaries to growth as easily in soil. Which leads me to this:

View attachment IMG_3116.mov

Time to push the envelope again.

 

[Aqua Man]

That's a lot to unpack.

This is a completely subjective test if both methods finish well. I just proved it to myself is all. My personal preference is I am not a fan of either.

In terms of organic vs synthetic, I do believe that there is a different taste profile to each one. MDK and my other testers also said so. Although that was not the only thing being tested here. But I was dumping in terp tea and molasses so they were clearly fed a different diet.

This is not an attempt to claim a winner. Sample size small, method questionable. But there was not enough difference to make me want to switch to soil. I'm a hydro guy. Can't play with finding boundaries to growth as easily in soil. Which leads me to this:

View attachment 28323

Time to push the envelope again.

Agree my comment wasn’t on the test just a general statement that pertains to some of the thoughts generally stated on the subject

 

[moe.red]

Here's a little bit of an explanation on the hardware. @Aqua Man chime in on the O2 stuff if you want. Your brain child.

View attachment IMG_3114.mov


View attachment IMG_3112.mov

Edit Not coax you idiot ethernet.

 

[MDK]

Had some extra at the end and I smoked a blunt with my buddy who always smokes big hoggers with me (my buddy that swallows hot dogs if yall remember that story) anyway his assessment was "GOT DAMN!"

 

[moe.red]

Here is the rest of the report from MDK. Fun read.












Just to be clear, A&D were taken from the same hydro jar. B&C both the same soil jar. Trying to cancel out the Placebo as best as I could. If someone ranks A the best and D the worst for example, that data is pointless.

 

[moe.red]

O2 catching up. Plotting the curve

 

[MDK]

We looking at the top left box for 02 level? I can see it, barely but hey hey

Clicking heels* damn autocorrect

 

[moe.red]

We looking at the top left box for 02 level? I can see it, barely but hey hey

Clicking heels* damn autocorrect

Yes I’ll make it plain once it stabilizes.

Most O2 charts you will find look only at temp as a variable. Some go a bit further and look at pressure like this one



Another method is to take the limitation of the amount of O2 in the atmosphere out of the equation. Or rather require a different equation.

Henry's Law

Henry's law - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

In physical chemistry, Henry's law is a gas law that states that the amount of dissolved gas in a liquid is directly proportional to its partial pressure above the liquid. The proportionality factor is called Henry's law constant. It was formulated by the English chemist William Henry, who studied the topic in the early 19th century.

That gets deep in a hurry. Over my head. @Aqua Man is the one to explain that.


What I'm doing is trying to get around the typical 8mg/L you get for hydro, and pump that number up to 90% of it's potential capacity. By injecting O2 across the top of each res and stirring, I should be able to reach into the 20's.

I've seen what O2 injection can do. In fog. This is my first RDWC using it.

Anyhow, there is just a ton that went into getting to this point. AM and I have been scheming this for years now. So happy it is alive and it proves to be the last bottleneck for maximum growth potential. Gonna be fun finding out.

 

[Rootsruler]

So, at least subjectively, it would seem that taste and flavor profiles, if we average them, would lead me to believe there isn't much room between the two, personal tastes withstanding.

If quality is close the other metric would be growth and I know that DWC beats out soil at every turn in that manner. Maintenance would be another factor to consider, especially for my lazy ass. I find soil to be the easiest in regards to maintenance and DWC and other techniques more work to stay on top off.

I guess the moral of the story would be that if you're looking for a fast growing, high yielding technique then water as a medium is probably where you want to be as long as you're ok with the added maintenance and upfront costs.

IMO, soil is the way to start. Once you've mastered soil then, maybe rockwool as your next step then water as a medium. That's not to say that you can't start in water but I feel growing in soil teaches you a lot about the plant processes that happen naturally.

 

[moe.red]

So, at least subjectively, it would seem that taste and flavor profiles, if we average them, would lead me to believe there isn't much room between the two, personal tastes withstanding.

If quality is close the other metric would be growth and I know that DWC beats out soil at every turn in that manner. Maintenance would be another factor to consider, especially for my lazy ass. I find soil to be the easiest in regards to maintenance and DWC and other techniques more work to stay on top off.

I guess the moral of the story would be that if you're looking for a fast growing, high yielding technique then water as a medium is probably where you want to be as long as you're ok with the added maintenance and upfront costs.

IMO, soil is the way to start. Once you've mastered soil then, maybe rockwool as your next step then water as a medium. That's not to say that you can't start in water but I feel growing in soil teaches you a lot about the plant processes that happen naturally.

I found them to be clearly from the same plant, but with differences both in terpenes and structure.

That was only my single experience. Just wanted to make sure I was not missing out on something obvious. Experience is always a better teacher for me than a book. I love side by sides.

I'd love to have the data on what commercial growers use and why.

I do not think hydro is harder or more time consuming than soil. My growstyle is not for everyone. But if you look at the @smoke style of just setting up the system right initially and getting out of the way, hydro can be much more self-maintaining than soil.

Short version is hydro > initial cost and set up time, but better weight yields in the same square footage per year. Hydro is not for everyone, but rewarding to those that dig in.

 

[Rootsruler]

I found them to be clearly from the same plant, but with differences both in terpenes and structure.

That was only my single experience. Just wanted to make sure I was not missing out on something obvious. Experience is always a better teacher for me than a book. I love side by sides.

I'd love to have the data on what commercial growers use and why.

I do not think hydro is harder or more time consuming than soil. My growstyle is not for everyone. But if you look at the @smoke style of just setting up the system right initially and getting out of the way, hydro can be much more self-maintaining than soil.

Short version is hydro > initial cost and set up time, but better weight yields in the same square footage per year. Hydro is not for everyone, but rewarding to those that dig in.

So from your personal experience, what would you say are the differences that you experienced between the two as far as terpenes? For me, Hydro just pulls smoother but as far as high they both affect me the same pretty much.

 

[Aqua Man]

So from your personal experience, what would you say are the differences that you experienced between the two as far as terpenes? For me, Hydro just pulls smoother but as far as high they both affect me the same pretty much.

All depends on the environment, ability to grow healthy plants and a few other variables

 

[smoke]

Maintenance would be another factor to consider,

I rember back about 8 or 10 years ago my sister asked me how hard it was to grow in water? So easy even a cave man can do it, i told her

I do not think hydro is harder or more time consuming than soil. My growstyle is not for everyone. But if you look at the @smoke style of just setting up the system right initially and getting out of the way, hydro can be much more self-maintaining than soil.

Short version is hydro > initial cost and set up time, but better weight yields in the same square footage per year. Hydro is not for everyone, but rewarding to those that dig in.

Even before I had these new rooms all i had was a room kinda pieced together (ac, lights etc) did buy a 4 site factory current culture set up that i use in the veg room today, and a chiller to start. For sure my advise is do it correct to start as i think it makes the journey much more enjoyable. As far as weights go, so far i have yet to break 1 gram per watt.

 

[moe.red]

So from your personal experience, what would you say are the differences that you experienced between the two as far as terpenes? For me, Hydro just pulls smoother but as far as high they both affect me the same pretty much.

I rember back about 8 or 10 years ago my sister asked me how hard it was to grow in water? So easy even a cave man can do it, i told her

Even before I had these new rooms all i had was a room kinda pieced together (ac, lights etc) did buy a 4 site factory current culture set up that i use in the veg room today, and a chiller to start. For sure my advise is do it correct to start as i think it makes the journey much more enjoyable. As far as weights go, so far i have yet to break 1 gram per watt.

What is your total wattage?

 

[ZombieRider]

Imo there is a difference of palates and preferences and the whole thing can be influenced by a bias opinion if not a blind test. Lots of scientific evidence to show how much bias can play a placebo role.

This is why we all do not have the same favourite food.

Imo the grow method can and absolutely does change the terpene and flavonoid profiles of a plant… for the better or the worse depends on the palate and the norm of that palate.

If you grow up with your mom’s spaghetti and you have someone else's, more than likely you will feel its not as good…. EG change the grow methods and it will impact this and just the fact it provides a slight difference people have the same reactions. Some say hydro is better and some say organic is… of the same strain speaking. It’s relevant.

There is also the fact that given the adequate source of nutrients thing plays a role. Some commercial companies over feed or under feed synthetic nutrients and that can have an impact… same is true for organic but to a much lower risk.

This all depends on indoor, outdoor, feeding and plant health… not so much the organic or synthetic argument. Thats just what the industry wants you to believe

So lemme get this straight lol...you're saying that it's not about organic or synthetic, both methods can produce the same number of flavonoids or terpenoids in cured flower.
The real factor to unlocking the total cannabinoid and terp/flavonoid potential a plant has is to give it a perfect growing environment where it can focus on being the best plant it can be, not struggle with some BS error the grower didn't think of.

The more your grow is dialed in, the better that genetic can show what it's got. Im thinking bud quality is like 60% genetics and 40% grower skill tbh.
Also, luck def has something to do with growing the best bud

 

[ZombieRider]

So, at least subjectively, it would seem that taste and flavor profiles, if we average them, would lead me to believe there isn't much room between the two, personal tastes withstanding.

If quality is close the other metric would be growth and I know that DWC beats out soil at every turn in that manner. Maintenance would be another factor to consider, especially for my lazy ass. I find soil to be the easiest in regards to maintenance and DWC and other techniques more work to stay on top off.

I guess the moral of the story would be that if you're looking for a fast growing, high yielding technique then water as a medium is probably where you want to be as long as you're ok with the added maintenance and upfront costs.

IMO, soil is the way to start. Once you've mastered soil then, maybe rockwool as your next step then water as a medium. That's not to say that you can't start in water but I feel growing in soil teaches you a lot about the plant processes that happen naturally.

Im thinking the main reason hydro would be better than coco is cuz you dont need coco every grow, just WATA.

 

[ZombieRider]

I rember back about 8 or 10 years ago my sister asked me how hard it was to grow in water? So easy even a cave man can do it, i told her

Even before I had these new rooms all i had was a room kinda pieced together (ac, lights etc) did buy a 4 site factory current culture set up that i use in the veg room today, and a chiller to start. For sure my advise is do it correct to start as i think it makes the journey much more enjoyable. As far as weights go, so far i have yet to break 1 gram per watt.

Why haven't you hit one gram per watt do you think? I get at least 1gr per watt in coco and GH.

 

[Aqua Man]

So lemme get this straight lol...you're saying that it's not about organic or synthetic, both methods can produce the same number of flavonoids or terpenoids in cured flower.
The real factor to unlocking the total cannabinoid and terp/flavonoid potential a plant has is to give it a perfect growing environment where it can focus on being the best plant it can be, not struggle with some BS error the grower didn't think of.

The more your grow is dialed in, the better that genetic can show what it's got. Im thinking bud quality is like 60% genetics and 40% grower skill tbh.
Also, luck def has something to do with growing the best bud

Kinda organic and synthetic can play a role especially depending on the additives used. But its the least of the impact of the variables imo

 

[ZombieRider]

Kinda organic and synthetic can play a role especially depending on the additives used. But its the least of the impact of the variables imo

Does hydro make lower brix plants than organic? Something to do with chelation and it being a more natural process of the plants digesting nutrients?

 

[Observer]

So lemme get this straight lol...you're saying that it's not about organic or synthetic, both methods can produce the same number of flavonoids or terpenoids in cured flower.

its negligible.

The real factor to unlocking the total cannabinoid and terp/flavonoid potential a plant has is to give it a perfect growing environment where it can focus on being the best plant it can be, not struggle with some BS error the grower didn't think of.

The more your grow is dialed in, the better that genetic can show what it's got. Im thinking bud quality is like 60% genetics and 40% grower skill tbh.
Also, luck def has something to do with growing the best bud

its all based on the same Bio-Mechanics, that can be Manipulated for different results.

 

[Observer]

Does hydro make lower brix plants than organic? Something to do with chelation and it being a more natural process of the plants digesting nutrients?

i thought moe was going to test the Brix too.

waiting with my dick in my hands.

 

[Aqua Man]

Does hydro make lower brix plants than organic? Something to do with chelation and it being a more natural process of the plants digesting nutrients?

It depends in the grow and grower… in fact i feel you have more control on brix synthetically than organically but thats not to say thats always the case

 

[Aqua Man]

Why haven't you hit one gram per watt do you think? I get at least 1gr per watt in coco and GH.

1 gram per kilowatt hr is the metric ppl should be using

 

[smoke]

What is your total wattage?

4000

 

[Observer]

we need a separate, Thanks! and, I'll Drink to That! Emoji

@Moe.Red

 

[smoke]

Why haven't you hit one gram per watt do you think? I get at least 1gr per watt in coco and GH.

Don't know and don't really care.

Edit; 2 crops of what we grow is more than what we can use

 

[moe.red]

Few questions here, I'll try to get them all.

First zombie, yes my grow style for the last 5 years has been to find the limit to growth in my system and engineer a way to break down the wall. At some point I will not be able to push plants any further. I don't think I am there yet, but this O2 thing may be the last engineering hurdle. Time will tell.

Organic vs Synthetic means different things to different people. The way I use it is that in organic, the nutes are made plant available via the action of micros in the medium. Synthetic means that the plant available molecules are all prepped and ready to go. Ultimately, the same nitrogen molecule is used for example, and the plants cannot tell the difference. But all the other stuff that comes with it can make a difference. Even with just proportions of nutes. Adding sugars like molasses is done to feed microbes. But some molasses carries with it a heavy helping of sulfur. Sulfur helps build terps. So the whole thing is very complex and not a single answer out there.

And in terms of chelation that really only applies to metals like iron and copper. Ammonium Nitrate (N) for example does not need it.

Brix will be a part of this. I am still very much a novice here, bumping into walls trying to figure it out. But right now, no plants, so no brix.

In terms of measuring electrical input per unit of weight in yield, I agree with Aqua that the best measurement is weight/KWH. Now to @smoke, he is not your average grower. Starting with the lights, using HPS lighting right off the bat lowers efficiency as measured in g/KWH. I started with HPS/MH too, and I grew huge plants but it took a lot of juice to do it. Not just the lights, but the AC to pull the excess heat out. Given current lighting tech, I don't see HPS as a contender in the g/KWH race. Not saying he should change a thing, just pointing that out. With current LEDs you can get the same amount of photons with 1/3 the electrical energy.




On the O2 side, the DO is up to about 14 this AM. That's up from 8 at the start. It is still climbing, albeit slowly. With 120G of water in the system, I was expecting a slow climb. That's why I worked so hard on sealing everything. I'm going to let it run until the trend has clearly flattened out then consult with the weed guru, and see where we land. I was hoping for at least 20. I may need a bigger O2 concentrator to get there. Also the tent O2 level has remained stable, was hoping for that to go down, especially without plants in there. Learning...

 

[ZombieRider]

Don't know and don't really care.

Edit; 2 crops of what we grow is more than what we can use

Sorry to call you out like that bro, wasnt my intention. I have a tendency to ask lots of questions, some can be taken as criticism but it was curiosity.

Im just surprised that an experienced grower like you isnt pulling more than a gram per watt. The HPS vs LED things makes hella sense and must be why. If...however...you do wanna try an led grow I can send you an LED light if you pay for the shipping.

 

[ZombieRider]

Few questions here, I'll try to get them all.

First zombie, yes my grow style for the last 5 years has been to find the limit to growth in my system and engineer a way to break down the wall. At some point I will not be able to push plants any further. I don't think I am there yet, but this O2 thing may be the last engineering hurdle. Time will tell.

Organic vs Synthetic means different things to different people. The way I use it is that in organic, the nutes are made plant available via the action of micros in the medium. Synthetic means that the plant available molecules are all prepped and ready to go. Ultimately, the same nitrogen molecule is used for example, and the plants cannot tell the difference. But all the other stuff that comes with it can make a difference. Even with just proportions of nutes. Adding sugars like molasses is done to feed microbes. But some molasses carries with it a heavy helping of sulfur. Sulfur helps build terps. So the whole thing is very complex and not a single answer out there.

And in terms of chelation that really only applies to metals like iron and copper. Ammonium Nitrate (N) for example does not need it.

Brix will be a part of this. I am still very much a novice here, bumping into walls trying to figure it out. But right now, no plants, so no brix.

In terms of measuring electrical input per unit of weight in yield, I agree with Aqua that the best measurement is weight/KWH. Now to @smoke, he is not your average grower. Starting with the lights, using HPS lighting right off the bat lowers efficiency as measured in g/KWH. I started with HPS/MH too, and I grew huge plants but it took a lot of juice to do it. Not just the lights, but the AC to pull the excess heat out. Given current lighting tech, I don't see HPS as a contender in the g/KWH race. Not saying he should change a thing, just pointing that out. With current LEDs you can get the same amount of photons with 1/3 the electrical energy.




On the O2 side, the DO is up to about 14 this AM. That's up from 8 at the start. It is still climbing, albeit slowly. With 120G of water in the system, I was expecting a slow climb. That's why I worked so hard on sealing everything. I'm going to let it run until the trend has clearly flattened out then consult with the weed guru, and see where we land. I was hoping for at least 20. I may need a bigger O2 concentrator to get there. Also the tent O2 level has remained stable, was hoping for that to go down, especially without plants in there. Learning...

Thanks for breaking all this down brother. What strains are you going to test the DO system on?

 

[moe.red]

Sorry to call you out like that bro, wasnt my intention. I have a tendency to ask lots of questions, some can be taken as criticism but it was curiosity.

Im just surprised that an experienced grower like you isnt pulling more than a gram per watt. The HPS vs LED things makes hella sense and must be why. If...however...you do wanna try an led grow I can send you an LED light if you pay for the shipping.

@smoke is uncalloutable. I have never seen him even close to mad. Don't think he has time for that.

 

[moe.red]

Thanks for breaking all this down brother. What strains are you going to test the DO system on?

And here is where my analysis paralysis takes over. I have so many good seeds in hand.

I have picked a few that are fo sho. Han Solo Death Cookies and Gusher Runtz by @Oldsog. I have 3 from @B2ACG and I want to run all 3. I have these Mendel's X GDaddy purple from @SweetLeafGrow that need to be put to the test, but those are regs which will require some sorting. I've got a few other regs I want to run too, and let's not forget the stuff from @dragonsflamegenetics that are burning a hole in my pocket.

I don't have enough spots or plant count to run them all!

My son is on his way over, gonna figure this out when he gets here and germinate. I'll let you know where we land.

 

[smoke]

@smoke is uncalloutable. I have never seen him even close to mad. Don't think he has time for that.

Exactly, ive given thought to his post and i may take him up on his offer.

I grow the way I do because i like the way trees look. Members here are hitting twice what im doing at 1/gpw. @SSHZ as an example but you have to admit my trees just look better.

Im fairly confident this past grow of af1 from Anthem will break that 1/gpw.
Simple math. 4000÷454=8.81lbs X 2 = 17 plus lbs per year. Too much flower to use annually.

But yea @ZombieRider thanks for calling me outable.

 

[steamroller]

Exactly, ive given thought to his post and i may take him up on his offer.

I grow the way I do because i like the way trees look. Members here are hitting twice what im doing at 1/gpw. @SSHZ as an example but you have to admit my trees just look better.

Im fairly confident this past grow of af1 from Anthem will break that 1/gpw.
Simple math. 4000÷454=8.81lbs X 2 = 17 plus lbs per year. Too much flower to use annually.

But yea @ZombieRider thanks for calling me outable.

Your trees always look the best to me~!
I wanted trees but it does not happen as fast with LEDs as with HPS.

 

[Rootsruler]

Octopots?......GO............

 

[moe.red]

Your trees always look the best to me~!
I wanted trees but it does not happen as fast with LEDs as with HPS.

I agree, HPS has it's place. Smoke up on the outer rim of the north pole growing indoor trees, LEDs could not make plants like this.