Grump's Power Plant Grow.

[Observer]

I ain't scared to go dump another 20ml of Calmag in there. Little thing needs some Nitrogen for sure.

hows she lookin now?

 

[Observer]

5.5pH - logic = younger plant / pH can drift up, Micro-Nutes availability

I did a resevoir change yesterday with a 3/2/1/2 ml/gal ratio of Green/Purple/Pink/CalMag.

Right now it's sitting at 5.7ph 320tds. Tent's temps are stable at 79-80 with a 60-61% humidity. I backed the light down to 10% at about 3 feet above the lid.

Poor little plant is looking pretty rough but the newest set of leaves has a much better green to them. The plant will probably abort the rest eventually. The lowest set is nearly completely yellow now and starting to shrivel. Fingers crossed for it after this nute change.

I was planning on topping it soon but I think I'll wait til the 5th node this round. That'll give her a little more time to get her shit sorted out.

Here's the little ugly duckling...
View attachment 25819

looks like, new growth looks a little better

id keep around, 300-350 ppm, 5.5ph, whats the light at? may reduce slightly more to ease off her.

i could be wrong of course, just my thoughts.

5.5pH for micro-nutes availability and it can just drift up, also younger plant.

80f 70 rh?

 

[GrumpAzz]

5.5pH - logic = younger plant / pH can drift up, Micro-Nutes availability

looks like, new growth looks a little better

New growth definitely has some more green to it but she's still lookin kinda rough. I know the ugly leaves won't recover so I'm not terribly worried about them. The most recent pair of leaves looks a lot better. I'll snap a picture before I head to work.

id keep around, 300-350 ppm, 5.5ph, whats the light at? may reduce slightly more to ease off her.

i could be wrong of course, just my thoughts.

Water is sitting at 5.5 this morning with tds at 330. Running the 321 ratio now with 2ml/gal CalMag. Might need to up it on the next change. The light is at 10% 3 feet up.

5.5pH for micro-nutes availability and it can just drift up, also younger plant.

80f 70 rh?

Tent's at 77 which keeps my leaf temps at 76 or so. Running 62% humidity. I had it up around 68 but dropped it after the res change. I wanted her to start drinking a little more. There's plenty of roots in the water so I was hoping a bit lower humidity would forsce her to drink up the new batch of nutes.

 

[GrumpAzz]

 

[moe.red]

Looks like your VPD is a little over 1.

With the plant eating it's early leaves, it makes me think the plant is not transpiring, has issues with the roots, or your res mix is off. I think you addressed the res, and bringing the RH down like you did will encourage more water movement thru the plant, leaves me with what's up with the roots? Everything good down there?

 

[GrumpAzz]

Looks like your VPD is a little over 1.

With the plant eating it's early leaves, it makes me think the plant is not transpiring, has issues with the roots, or your res mix is off. I think you addressed the res, and bringing the RH down like you did will encourage more water movement thru the plant, leaves me with what's up with the roots? Everything good down there?

All good as far as I can tell. I'll grab a picture here in a bit. She's recovering, I'd say. Those early leaves were doomed from the start. I'm assuming too little nitrogen?

My first batch of nutes this round was equal parts of the trio because that's what the label shows for seedlings. I fixed her up with Smoke's recommendation at a 321 ratio, which is what the label shows for aggressive vegetative growth. I also doubled the amount of CalMag. I think we're on the mend but I'll probably wait til the 5th or 6th node for a topping. Let her get back in stride before adding that stressor.

 

[Observer]

VPD Chart | AROYA by Addium

Interactive VPD chart displaying vapor pressure deficit values calculated from air temperature and relative humidity—essential for growers, researchers, and climate control optimization.

vpd.aroya.io

hmm im not sure what would be best in this scenario, 0.4-1.2 VPD range

maybe .8

 

[GrumpAzz]

VPD Chart | AROYA by Addium

Interactive VPD chart displaying vapor pressure deficit values calculated from air temperature and relative humidity—essential for growers, researchers, and climate control optimization.

vpd.aroya.io

id aim for .4-.8 VPD

Last round I kept the VPD low like that because that's what all the charts said. It stalled her out and wasted probably a month of veg time. Aqua noticed the plant was pretty skimpy for the age and got me fixed up with where I'm out right now. He said F the charts. I listened. Plant took off

 

[Observer]

Last round I kept the VPD low like that because that's what all the charts said. It stalled her out and wasted probably a month of veg time. Aqua noticed the plant was pretty skimpy for the age and got me fixed up with where I'm out right now. He said F the charts. I listened. Plant took off

so higher vpd = more transpiration



i do not yet fully see how it all works together or as in for which scenario/grow context.

.4-.8 i suppose would be low transpiration for young plants, and then increase transpiration/through "vpd" as they get older/bigger and depending on how the plant is responding to the ENVironment/nutrient uptake (?)/ how one is pushing the plants idfk

i just run high heat high RH mainly for now lol, or i try to keep them within 10pts 80f/70rh (smaller container coco/highfreqfert)

 

[Observer]

Hey folks. The first seed from this round showed up this morning so I figured it's time to get a new journal going. This grow will be Power Plant by Dutch Passion, the original breeders of the strain. It's supposed to be a heavy yielder so, with my 3x3 SCROG screen, hopefully I'll wind up with a plentiful bounty after harvesting what will be my second grow ever. Let's kick this off.

Equipment:
SpiderFarmer 5x5 tent
SpiderFarmer SE5000 LED with controller
AC Infinity Controller 69 pro
6" AC Infinity Exhaust fan and Cabon Filter
6" AC Infinity inline fan for intake
2x AC Infinity UIS plugs for heater/humidifier.
14 gallon totes for plant and control resevoirs
30 gallon tote for top-off resevoir
2x BlueLab gaurdian monitors

Nutrients:
General Hydroponics Flora Trio and CalMag
Plant Success Orca Liquid Mycorrhizae
Mr Fulvic's Fulvic Acid

-------

Dropped a couple beans into some Gro Plugs Thursday evening and the first of the two made it's breakthrough sometime last night. I've got them in AC Infinity's Germination Kit with heatmat and Lights included. Once my current harvest is dried and out of the tent, I'll move in the better of two.
View attachment 21912View attachment 21913

Thanks for tuning in to my second grow EVER. Feel free to post your questions and comments. Despite my name, I'm not really all that grumpy.

& y'all

Nice.

 

[GrumpAzz]

@Moe.Red
New leaves looking alright. Roots as well. There's a little bit of browning on that one string of roots but I've been top-feeding with res water that's got 20ml/gal of Orca.

 

[Observer]

@Moe.Red
New leaves looking alright. Roots as well. There's a little bit of browning on that one string of roots but I've been top-feeding with res water that's got 20ml/gal of Orca.
View attachment 26304View attachment 26305

hell yea looks much better

id just cut that fucked leaf off, or itll just fall off and pick it up later

can you take another picture more level with the canopy? few inches back?

 

[GrumpAzz]

hell yea looks much better

id just cut that fucked leaf off, or itll just fall off and pick it up later

can you take another picture more level with the canopy? few inches back?

I will later tonight. On dad duty now.

 

[moe.red]

@Moe.Red
New leaves looking alright. Roots as well. There's a little bit of browning on that one string of roots but I've been top-feeding with res water that's got 20ml/gal of Orca.
View attachment 26304View attachment 26305

Excellent pics. You are past the issue, carry on. Use the brown leaves as canaries and make sure they halt getting worse. You are not expecting recovery, but if the plant is otherwise happy it will stop cannibalizing itself. When you top it if they still look the same, take them off.

Can you remind me of the genetics? The root structure overall is small. I'm assuming from seed.

I'm a bit of a root snob, but this morphology of root growth is one of the reasons I switched to coco. I started with huge 10" netpots with hydroton, and after years I think little pots with coco is best. Big plants bust right thru the netpots.

Anyhow, the snob says that you want the roots to be coming out the sides of the netpots well before now. Tap roots do this thing where they just keep growing straight with minimal side branching until they encounter some resistance. You are going to have problems in a hydro system based on totes because the bottom of the pot is a foot away. So you have to get the branching morphology set when they are babies to get the best roots in hydro. I find that coco stays plenty wet just from the splashing of the waterfall, and provides more back pressure on the baby roots.

Another option is rock wool.

Or manipulate towards root growth with hormones like Auxin.

Stuff to think about for next grow anyhow.

 

[GrumpAzz]

Excellent pics. You are past the issue, carry on. Use the brown leaves as canaries and make sure they halt getting worse. You are not expecting recovery, but if the plant is otherwise happy it will stop cannibalizing itself. When you top it if they still look the same, take them off.

Can you remind me of the genetics? The root structure overall is small. I'm assuming from seed.

It's Power Plant by Dutch Passion. Unknown African sativas crossed with an unknown indica for "faster finishing". A supposed heavy yielder.

I'm a bit of a root snob, but this morphology of root growth is one of the reasons I switched to coco. I started with huge 10" netpots with hydroton, and after years I think little pots with coco is best. Big plants bust right thru the netpots.

I went with smaller netpots (4") and actually cut it up to make it easier for the roots to exit the cup. That may have been a mistake considering a lack of resistance. That taproot definitely shot out in a hurry.

Stuff to think about for next grow anyhow.

Always looking ahead

 

[Aqua Man]

VPD must take plant temps into account or it will be to low… i just used an educated guess for my suggestion in this case.

Also a 1.0 VPD will do well for a plant start to finish.

 

[moe.red]

One more thing, what happens below is the best predictor of what will happen up top. Prepare for a tall plant.

 

[moe.red]

It's Power Plant by Dutch Passion. Unknown African sativas crossed with an unknown indica for "faster finishing". A supposed heavy yielder.

OK so could be anything. I'm going to bet it leans sativa based on the start. Do you have a UVA function on your light?

 

[GrumpAzz]

OK so could be anything. I'm going to bet it leans sativa based on the start. Do you have a UVA function on your light?

I don't believe so. It's the SpiderFarmer SE5000.

 

[moe.red]

VPD must take plant temps into account or it will be to low… i just used an educated guess for my suggestion in this case.

Also a 1.0 VPD will do well for a plant start to finish.

Most people have trouble maintaining that. Poor Bandit down in TX deals with some real shit environment and still makes his plants look good.

Plants are like people. If you are otherwise healthy you can take a beating in one area. Outdoors the environment is way worse and people still grow beautiful bud. Just have to give the plant everything else it needs within your control.

 

[Observer]

I think little pots with coco is best. Big plants bust right thru the netpots.

Anyhow, the snob says that you want the roots to be coming out the sides of the netpots well before now. Tap roots do this thing where they just keep growing straight with minimal side branching until they encounter some resistance. You are going to have problems in a hydro system based on totes because the bottom of the pot is a foot away. So you have to get the branching morphology set when they are babies to get the best roots in hydro. I find that coco stays plenty wet just from the splashing of the waterfall, and provides more back pressure on the baby roots.

break the tap root off, it starts branching out from the tip.

those silly neoprene collars in my little water bottle? i broke the tap root off to see what would happen, stopped trying to go to the bottom and started branching sideways.

Another option is rock wool.

Or manipulate towards root growth with hormones like Auxin.

Stuff to think about for next grow anyhow.

i started using kelp foliar for the auxins,gibbs, and cytokinins and also tweaked my EC mix for a (more PK to N ratio(logic being to focus on root development) in the hydro experiments.

 

[Observer]

VPD must take plant temps into account or it will be to low… i just used an educated guess for my suggestion in this case.

Also a 1.0 VPD will do well for a plant start to finish.

thats why i like this one , https://vpd.aroya.io/

 

[Observer]

break the tap root off, it starts branching out from the tip.

those silly neoprene collars in my little water bottle? i broke the tap root off to see what would happen, stopped trying to go to the bottom and started branching sideways.

i started using kelp foliar for the auxins,gibbs, and cytokinins and also tweaked my EC mix for a (more PK to N ratio(logic being to focus on root development) in the hydro experiments.

if i had just blue leds....

anyone hear about PeLEDs?

 

[GrumpAzz]

thats why i like this one , https://vpd.aroya.io/

View attachment 26318

Last grow, this chart showed my VPD at 1.6 when I was in early flower which is the supposed danger zone. I hit a max of 1.75 in late flower. Charts... meh

 

[Observer]

Last grow, this chart showed my VPD at 1.6 when I was in early flower which is the supposed danger zone. I hit a max of 1.75 in late flower. Charts... meh

which means it was slightly "over" what "they" consider a "healthy" transpiration (?)

what was ENV-parameters like?

 

[Observer]

if i had just blue leds....

anyone hear about PeLEDs?

Perovskite LED | Perovskite-Info

What are perovskites?Perovskite is a calcium titanium oxide mineral, with the chemical formula CaTiO3, discovered in the Ural Mountains of Russia by Gustav Rose in 1839 and named after Russian mineralogist Lev Perovski (1792–1856).

www.perovskite-info.com

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acsnano.1c06849

Perovskite light-emitting diodes - Nature Electronics

This Review examines the development of perovskite light-emitting diodes, exploring the key challenges involved in creating efficient and stable devices.

www.nature.com

 

[GrumpAzz]

damn, what was ENV-parameters like?

Temp was 78 and humidity low 40s

 

[Observer]

Temp was 78 and humidity low 40s

meaning its very dry and hard for them to keep their stomata open and exchanging water vapor and co2/gasses

or for them to open their stomata and let in co2 and let out water?

few different ways it could be worded i suppose (?)

co2 molecule comes in, h2o molecule goes out, vpd regulates that.

 

[Observer]

meaning its very dry and hard for them to keep their stomata open and exchanging water vapor and co2/gasses

or for them to open their stomata and let in co2 and let out water?

few different ways it could be worded i suppose (?)

co2 molecule comes in, h2o molecule goes out, vpd regulates that.

vpd control*

someone correct me lol

i can shut up

 

[tobh]

vpd control*

someone correct me lol

i can shut up

nah, you're mostly correct.

VPD influences how much the plant opens its stomata. This is in response to the pressure in the atmosphere, primarily due to air temp, leaf temp, and humidity. Barometric pressure also plays a role, but not so significantly inside.

Plants will open stomata across a broad range regardless of RH, and as Moe said, they'll still transpire even in not ideal VPD so long most other needs are met. The only time they really shut down is above 85F iirc. Then, it's just a simple response to avoid dumping too much moisture into the air. Same will happen below 30% RH, though I've never seen it personally.

Growing in NM, getting enough RH was always the problem. Most of my early years saw grows riding between 20% - 40% RH depending on time of year. Of course, back then I didn't know about VPD but it didn't matter. Everything else the plants needed was met so they did their thing. Did they do it as fast and effectively as they could? probably not. but it didn't kill em.

TL;DR: it takes extremes for plants to just close stomata and act like they can't even. As long as you're not in those extremes (eg, super hot + <30% RH, super cold + >80% RH), you're probably fine. Getting RH dialed to ~1.0 for most growth phases is a good target, getting fine grained is just optimization.

 

[Observer]

nah, you're mostly correct.

VPD influences how much the plant opens its stomata. This is in response to the pressure in the atmosphere, primarily due to air temp, leaf temp, and humidity. Barometric pressure also plays a role, but not so significantly inside.

Plants will open stomata across a broad range regardless of RH, and as Moe said, they'll still transpire even in not ideal VPD so long most other needs are met. The only time they really shut down is above 85F iirc. Then, it's just a simple response to avoid dumping too much moisture into the air. Same will happen below 30% RH, though I've never seen it personally.

Growing in NM, getting enough RH was always the problem. Most of my early years saw grows riding between 20% - 40% RH depending on time of year. Of course, back then I didn't know about VPD but it didn't matter. Everything else the plants needed was met so they did their thing. Did they do it as fast and effectively as they could? probably not. but it didn't kill em.

TL;DR: it takes extremes for plants to just close stomata and act like they can't even. As long as you're not in those extremes (eg, super hot + <30% RH, super cold + >80% RH), you're probably fine. Getting RH dialed to ~1.0 for most growth phases is a good target, getting fine grained is just optimization.

ok so whats the criteria for optimizing/"dialing" VPD then, growth rate/"pushing the plants per scenario as much as possible" being the Goal, temperature variable maxed out and then follow RH/LSTemp?,

like you can "dial" youre nutrient use/ec in by comparing input>output / run off and adjusting (?)


so if im running vpd at 75rh/85f/82~LSTemp = 0.73VPD, lets say during stretch/transition phase/week 1, plants look "great/fine/enough" to me, could they be "transpiring" better though?

and 85/75 seems to be pretty good under LEDs and healthy growth BUT and again, you dont know what you dont know.............min-max/optimization...

do i want a higher vpd/lower vpd?

fuckin charts....

 

[tobh]

ok so whats the criteria for optimizing/"dialing" VPD then, growth rate/"pushing the plants per scenario as much as possible" being the Goal, temperature variable maxed out and then follow RH/LSTemp?,

like you can "dial" youre nutrient use/ec in by comparing input>output / run off and adjusting (?)

View attachment 26322
so if im running vpd at 75rh/85f/82~LSTemp = 0.73VPD, lets say during stretch/transition phase/week 1, plants look "great/fine/enough" to me, could they be "transpiring" better though?

and 85/75 seems to be pretty good under LEDs and healthy growth BUT and again, you dont know what you dont know.............min-max/optimization...

do i want a higher vpd/lower vpd?

fuckin charts....

yeah, fuck the charts.

IMO the thing with VPD it's one of the last things you worry about until after everything else is dialed in. It's become a buzzword in growing at this point. Think of it like adding methanol injection to a naturally aspirated engine. Yes, you should be worried about air temp and RH, but getting VPD at the right spot isn't the end-all-be-all for a grow. It's just another collection of variables that, when dialed, can increase speed of growth and improve quality of the end product.

 

[GrumpAzz]

@Observer

 

[Observer]

@Observer
View attachment 26348

If she twist or droops anymore, I'd slightly decrease PPFD and you should be about perfect.

id also just remove any fucked/dead/dieing leafs as they'll just fall off and "can" "attract" pest
And won't recover anyways.

The ones with burnt tips I'd leave till like half the leaf is gone/burnt/crisp (?)


Hell yea, nice.

 

[GrumpAzz]

If she twist or droops anymore, I'd slightly decrease PPFD and you should be about perfect.

Hell yea

Word.

I plan to leave the light alone until I'm absolutely sure she's recovered. I wanna say she's happy now because the lower res dropped from 320ppm to 300 today, so she's eating. That's the first drop I've seen since she's been in the system. I've been letting the pH fall to 5.2 before adjusting up, thinking that it might help with the Nitrogen uptake. She isn't drinking much because the water level in the upper res has barely dropped. Might add a little CalMag to the bottom resevoirs in a day or so to bring it back up to 320, which is where the upper res sits.

I'll give her a few more days, maybe even let her sprout another set of leaves, before fiddling with the light. I've got nothing but time so I'm just gonna be patient. If I gotta run an extra month of veg, so be it.

 

[tobh]

Doin' right @GrumpAzz . let er rip, reduce changes as much as possible in the interim.

 

[Aqua Man]

So in his case it was light, nutrients and VPD related. VPD largely controls the uptake of nutrients

The light was to intense causing stress and it also drives demand for nutrients. The VPD being to low in combination of a nitrogen low nutrient solution at low concentrations meant the plant was not getting close to the nutrients it needed to support the demand put on the plant by the light intensity.

Very few hard rules in cannabis but ine is when you see stress of any sort reduce the light and correct the other issues letting the plant recover before slowly increasing the light again to get it where we are walking the line of maximizing growing without passing that threshold of stress

 

[moe.red]

@Observer
View attachment 26348

I don't understand why the cotyledons are still nice and green. They are usually the first to go on a young plant that is browning from the bottom up.

 

[Aqua Man]

In terms of high and low VPD yes you can run outside the ideal ranges but you also need to compensate for that. A low VPD needs a higher concentration of nutrients and vice versa under the same light conditions.

While you may not physically SEE the impacts of doing this or severe physical problems. There is more than enough scientific evidence that the plants will not only be healthier but also grow faster under ideal conditions of VPD…. Especially under circumstances when increased co2 in the atmosphere or o2 in the rootzone are used. Thats because those benefits are increased on a % of the base growth rates.

Co2 for instance shows increased resistance to to heat and water stress. But that does not mean that the plant will grow as healthy or fast in those conditions as they would in ideal conditions

 

[Aqua Man]

I don't understand why the cotyledons are still nice and green. They are usually the first to go on a young plant that is browning from the bottom up.

Mostly it was a light problem imo. But the nutrients also needed adjusting. The upper leaves being affected most.

By that i mean the upper leaves at the time it occurred