First Time.

[moe.red]

I’m very unconventional I run a perpetual guess I really need to start a thread today even with bugs , anyways I’m not saying it’s right or wrong cuz as I said I’m a little unconventional- but I would freak if my humidity was that high - even in my propagation tent it may slow things down but i personally in no hurry - again im in soil and different but I run around 80/85 and 50/60 rh almost all the time ,

And may irritate some but I gave up on that chart a couple years ago - I do kinda shoot for .75-1 but not really leaf temp isthe most important to me right or wrong ?

Mosh I don't think you could irritate anyone that didn't 100% deserve it.

Here is my feeling on VPD. Worth every penny you didn't pay for it.

VPD is a tool. A measurement of what is real. No different than PPM or PH or PPFD.

You can ABSOLUTELY grow well without measuring or controlling those things - just look at outdoor growers.

If something goes wrong, VPD can help, especially the new grower, get back on track.

VPD, along with PPFD and available CO2 sets the speed the plant will grow. Together, they are the gas pedal.

6CO2+6H2O→C6H12O6+6O2

That is photosynthesis, no more, no less. There are no nutrients there. Just CO2, Water and light which becomes sugar and oxygen.

What VPD does is set the speed at which CO2 is taken into the plant. It opens and closes stomata. IT changes how fast water moves from the roots to the leaves. You can imagine, being out of balance here is like trying to drive your car with the air intake filter blocked off.

So yeah., I teach VPD not as some kind of religion, but a thing that new growers can focus on and achieve to minimize problems as their thumb gets greener.

That said, 70%+ is excessive, even for seedlings.

If you have an iR temp gun and can shoot a leaf temp, especially the bottom of a large fan leaf in full sun, I'll show you some calculations and explain what is happening inside the plant based on your setpoints.

 

[GrumpAzz]

Also when you run out of southern ag we should switch to a product that is more inclusive. Orca and Great White are examples.

This is funny. I gathered from the farm that SA was an essential part of a live system and, in turn, bought two jugs of the stuff .

I've pursued and given up on many hobbies in the past. However, I'm pretty pot passionate and have always wanted grow. With this venture, part of my intial planning came with giving up in mind. This is a project I absolutely refuse to give up on. In my head, I will perservere to a greater extent, knowing I've put a lot of money into it. So a little waste here and there just adds to that contingency plan, if you will.

Where is your sensor?

Sorry. I might've thrown you a curveball when I mentioned the SF probe. I just hate that thing. I only use it to monitor my little lab area.

Top of the lid - 12"
Probe - 16 1/2" centered and to the side
Light - 40" at 10% 18/6 cycle

Also, the video didn't catch this.

 

[moe.red]

OK perfect.

There is nothing wrong with southern AG. As far as what it is, best bang for your buck on the market.

What it is - a single species of bacteria.

Bacillus amyloliquefaciens​

Bacillus amyloliquefaciens - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It is perhaps the best of the bacteria species for out-competing pythium and other nasties in our root zone environment. The plants will create exudates - sugars and other things they push out the roots specifically to call in and feed those bacteria in a symbiotic relationship. This is one reason you do not want molasses as I see all the time, the plant needs to feed the colony, not you.

What comes in Orca is BA, and a BUNCH of other symbiotic species including beneficial fungi that significantly enhance root health. So with a product like this, you get the BA and a lot of other good things as well.

Not worth throwing out the AG, just don't buy it again for this particular use IMO.

 

[moe.red]

Hey Grump, just so you know I made all those same buying mistakes and still have the bottles on the shelf years later to prove it. The local grow shop is about 20% good stuff you need, and about 80% crap to empty your wallet. It's just the way capitalism works.

 

[GrumpAzz]

What comes in Orca is BA, and a BUNCH of other symbiotic species including beneficial fungi that significantly enhance root health. So with a product like this, you get the BA and a lot of other good things as well.

Not worth throwing out the AG, just don't buy it again for this particular use IMO.

And see.. since I've moved in with the builders (more fitting since I'm in construction, not farming), I've seen you tout Orca a few times. I assumed they were the same thing, but like you said, more bang for your buck. I didn't have a full understanding and already had my SA by the time I was hearing about Orca.

I'll add that to the list with potassium silicate and something for the fulvic acid (or was it muric).

 

[moe.red]

Old pic. Did a fair amount of testing. Need to button that up and post it.

Zoom in on the orca. You can clearly see different colors, shapes, and densities of different colonies growing.

 

[smoke]

This is funny. I gathered from the farm that SA was an essential part of a live system and, in turn, bought two jugs of the stuff .

I've pursued and given up on many hobbies in the past. However, I'm pretty pot passionate and have always wanted grow. With this venture, part of my intial planning came with giving up in mind. This is a project I absolutely refuse to give up on. In my head, I will perservere to a greater extent, knowing I've put a lot of money into it. So a little waste here and there just adds to that contingency plan, if you will.

Sorry. I might've thrown you a curveball when I mentioned the SF probe. I just hate that thing. I only use it to monitor my little lab area.
View attachment 1009
Top of the lid - 12"
Probe - 16 1/2" centered and to the side
Light - 40" at 10% 18/6 cycle
View attachment 1008
Also, the video didn't catch this.

What are you using the peroxide for

 

[GrumpAzz]

What are you using the peroxide for

I used it when I cleaned up all my tubs and shit. I had tap water running in the system a few weeks before I got my RO system put in. I bleached things and then rinsed it with a peroxide solution before really starting. It's been sitting idle since.

 

[smoke]

Thanks, reading through the thread im reading live then you show that.

Your chasing your tail and you haven't even started. Slow down and take your time then it will be fun and frustrating at the same time. Lol

 

[moe.red]

Thanks, reading through the thread im reading live then you show that.

Your chasing your tail and you haven't even started. Slow down and take your time then it will be fun and frustrating at the same time. Lol

I was excited when I started too! You couldn't hold me back.

Let's walk down.

 

[GrumpAzz]

Thanks, reading through the thread im reading live then you show that.

Your chasing your tail and you haven't even started. Slow down and take your time then it will be fun and frustrating at the same time. Lol

Yeah sorry. Moe mentioned needing it for emergencies so that was just a follow up for him.

Live is definitely more interesting to me. I raised dart frogs for a while and the live soil was nearly as cool as the darts themselves. The various isipods and springtails were sometimes just as fun to observe.

Chasing my tail, maybe. I see it as taking a step back. I hit plenty of hurdles while building the res room and once I thought I was ready, turned out, my water was shit. It really got me to slow down and not worry so much. I'm just a chronic overthinker and eager to learn.

The since of urgency here started with a ph rise. Then, as Moe investigated, we've found some other things that need addressed. I've stepped away fom the operation aside from top-feeding the seedling in there somewhere. Still keeping an eye on ph, which is 6.4 currently.

 

[moe.red]

The since of urgency here started with a ph rise. Then, as Moe investigated, we've found some other things that need addressed. I've stepped away fom the operation aside from top-feeding the seedling in there somewhere. Still keeping an eye on ph, which is 6.4 currently.

You can bring that down to 5.8 with PH down. Then lets watch the trend again.

One of the things about RDWC is it forces a learning curve on you that doesn't happen in soil. The upshot is once you learn this stuff the grow style will result in faster larger harvests. You have the right attitude and will be just fine.

 

[GrumpAzz]

Currently doing dad stuff but will give it a shot of Down when I get the chance. I'm thinking a 4-5mL dose should be a good start for the ~15 gallons.

 

[Moshmen]

This is funny. I gathered from the farm that SA was an essential part of a live system and, in turn, bought two jugs of the stuff .

I've pursued and given up on many hobbies in the past. However, I'm pretty pot passionate and have always wanted grow. With this venture, part of my intial planning came with giving up in mind. This is a project I absolutely refuse to give up on. In my head, I will perservere to a greater extent, knowing I've put a lot of money into it. So a little waste here and there just adds to that contingency plan, if you will.

Sorry. I might've thrown you a curveball when I mentioned the SF probe. I just hate that thing. I only use it to monitor my little lab area.
View attachment 1009
Top of the lid - 12"
Probe - 16 1/2" centered and to the side
Light - 40" at 10% 18/6 cycle
View attachment 1008
Also, the video didn't catch this.

They recently done a study here in Florida (trulueve ) I believe not sure but I do remember that in rec states they said approx. 3% of new growers stuck with it - due to difficulty and cheap weed at Dispos - all I can say is don’t give up after one or two grows , ur just getting started !

 

[moe.red]

Currently doing dad stuff but will give it a shot of Down when I get the chance. I'm thinking a 4-5mL dose should be a good start for the ~15 gallons.

Please also ensure that you have enough splashing to keep the seedling root wet from the bottom. You do not want it to dry out and "air prune."

 

[smoke]

They recently done a study here in Florida (trulueve ) I believe not sure but I do remember that in rec states they said approx. 3% of new growers stuck with it - due to difficulty and cheap weed at Dispos - all I can say is don’t give up after one or two grows , ur just getting started !

And probably 1/2 the ones that failed, failed because they overthough it and loved them to death

 

[moe.red]

And probably 1/2 the ones that failed, failed because they overthough it and loved them to death

guilty

 

[GrumpAzz]

They recently done a study here in Florida (trulueve ) I believe not sure but I do remember that in rec states they said approx. 3% of new growers stuck with it - due to difficulty and cheap weed at Dispos - all I can say is don’t give up after one or two grows , ur just getting started !

Now I'm not gonna say it's frowned upon here, but I will say that there isn't any cheap weed at any dispensory near me.

Please also ensure that you have enough splashing to keep the seedling root wet from the bottom. You do not want it to dry out and "air prune."

My pump is currently maxed out and spraying the shit out of the water surface. The net pot drips everytime I lift the lid to check on things. That and I've been top-feeding 3 times a day, watering approximately 750 ml of res water over the entire surface of the hydroton.

 

[GrumpAzz]

It does get pretty hot up there.

 

[moe.red]

Yeah so pushing that heat into the res.

 

[GrumpAzz]

Yeah so pushing that heat into the res.

I just removed one of the bubble strips from the control resevoir. I think the bubbles were throwing off the probe. Let me explain...

Just added 5 ml of down (diluted into 750 ml), mixed really well with my drill driven paint mixer and let the pump circulate for 30 minutes. It dropped from 6.5 to 6.1. So I made another 5 ml mix, added it to the rez and mixed. No effect in ten minutes so I investigated the probe. I stirred it a little and stuck it in a corner where there were no bubbles...

5.0 !!

I'm stepping away for now and will check again in an hour.

 

[moe.red]

Welcome to the “yup that didn’t work “ club.

Absolutely let that settle a bit but don’t sweat it. Seedlings are very ph swing resistant. They don’t require anything from outside right now. Just water. Ph matters for nutrition uptake.

So first tweak. Another would be moving that air pump. Or replace it with a diaphragm pump.

Have you tested everything for syphon problems?

Targets should be 65% RH and low 70s now. Later we would prefer 80F and 55%. Think you can hold that with lights on full?

 

[GrumpAzz]

Welcome to the “yup that didn’t work “ club.

Absolutely let that settle a bit but don’t sweat it. Seedlings are very ph swing resistant. They don’t require anything from outside right now. Just water. Ph matters for nutrition uptake.

So first tweak. Another would be moving that air pump. Or replace it with a diaphragm pump.

Have you tested everything for syphon problems?

Targets should be 65% RH and low 70s now. Later we would prefer 80F and 55%. Think you can hold that with lights on full?

I will need to aquire some more 1/4" hose, but the pump could easily be moved out of the room and into the lung room. When I first installed the AC, I probed the room and it was keeping that little area in the very low 60s. I also purchased an inline fan to the ducting from there to the tent that, for now, isn't used. I posted a question on the Farm about negative air pressure when I first added that. I think with the combination AC/inline fan, I can keep up, as long as having positive air pressure isn't detrimental. As long as 80 or so is fine, we should probably be fine. I would be concerned with resevoir temps around 80 though. What's the upper limit there?

Siphon problems with the air lines? Or water lines? I've tested 10 minute power outages and everything returned to the normal routine. If I leave the wrong valves open, sometimes the pump will siphon dry but I've been pretty mindful of that. I have a couple check valves also. I just haven't installed them. They seemed like they would add quite a bit of resistance to the pump. Now you've got me paranoid and are making me want to test an outage again

 

[GrumpAzz]

Yeah so pushing that heat into the res.

Would my lower two resevoirs really even need the bubble strips? The fallponics really agitates the surface and circulates the plant res pretty well. And if not.. does the top-off resevoir even need bubbled? If I could just do away with the air pump altogether, that'd be pretty sweet.

 

[moe.red]

I will need to aquire some more 1/4" hose, but the pump could easily be moved out of the room and into the lung room. When I first installed the AC, I probed the room and it was keeping that little area in the very low 60s. I also purchased an inline fan to the ducting from there to the tent that, for now, isn't used. I posted a question on the Farm about negative air pressure when I first added that. I think with the combination AC/inline fan, I can keep up, as long as having positive air pressure isn't detrimental. As long as 80 or so is fine, we should probably be fine. I would be concerned with resevoir temps around 80 though. What's the upper limit there?

Siphon problems with the air lines? Or water lines? I've tested 10 minute power outages and everything returned to the normal routine. If I leave the wrong valves open, sometimes the pump will siphon dry but I've been pretty mindful of that. I have a couple check valves also. I just haven't installed them. They seemed like they would add quite a bit of resistance to the pump. Now you've got me paranoid and are making me want to test an outage again

I’ve put water on the floor plenty of times because I didn’t think things thru from waters perspective. I think the biggest one was when I pumped the res into the tent when roots clogged the return. You can imagine my face when I walked in on that. Like my avatar.

Just lookin out for you. The really big mistakes are the ones your wife finds out about. Like flossing the place lol.

I’m trying to come up with a way to chill your res with that 60* room. There is no upper limit with O2 injection but without and running bennies I would not get much over 76 before I start to worry 72 is my normal safe upper limit but I run chillers.
May need to look into insulation. And I would pump air from in front of the ac and see if that’s not enough. To keep it down.

If it is not you have 2 choices. Chiller or adding O2. You could add O2 via H2O2 and go sterile in a pinch if it gets away from you. I’ve seen people freeze soda bottles and put them in the res too.

Now this is a long post, but hear me out. What do you say about running this tent like you are in max veg for a few days and see what it gives us? You will lose a seedling but gain a stable system tuned for what is next.

Or pull the seedling back out and run it in another spot while we test your tent out.

We should start from scratch with the si buffer and much lower ppm for seedlings too. Get you set up for success, knowing now if you are gonna need an emergency chiller in a month lol.

 

[moe.red]

Would my lower two resevoirs really even need the bubble strips? The fallponics really agitates the surface and circulates the plant res pretty well. And if not.. does the top-off resevoir even need bubbled? If I could just do away with the air pump altogether, that'd be pretty sweet.

You are asking the right questions. I cannot answer without data on your system. Anything I say is a guess.

If your res temp gets up in the upper 70s o2 goes way down. It becomes the limiting factor in growth. Bubbling could induce O2 increase while also cooling the water if pump runs cool and is placed strategically.

I would use a diaphragm pump and I think using nothing would be a mistake.

 

[moe.red]

General Hydroponics HGC728040... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B008UF9XLY?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share

 

[GrumpAzz]

Ok first.. phew.

I think we can skip the test run for right now. When I first installed the AC in the lung room, I ran the light at 60%, which is SF's late veg recommendation, for a week. The temps in the tent never got above 78 with 80+ outside temps. The humidifier struggles a little at that point, but that was me still keeping the same 75% setting. The room outside the tent never got above 75.

That was before the inline fan. I then tested it with the light at 100% (late flower). It was able to keep it at or below 79. Same 75 outside the tent. Same 80+ outdoors. Humidifier had no impact. Only did this for a day though.

It's funny you linked that pump. I was looking at it wondering if it was what you meant and checked back here. Pumping lower temped air coupled with the inline fan, I think we could make it.

The agsil16h has been ordered. I'll spring for a new pump and some Orca next week. I think we have a little time before res temps become an issue, and on that note, I'll also start pricing some chillers just in case.

Also... another huge part of not wanting to scrap this seed just yet: I told my beautiful daughter's beautiful mother the situation and only recieved a big frown. We gotta try to save this little sucker before we give up on her. I'm hoping for a root to make an apperance tomorrow. If not, I'm out a buck.

 

[moe.red]

Sounds good

 

[GrumpAzz]

Ph is at 5.3 an hour and a half later. We might be on the mend.